Glock's blow

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Well BillT, I knew it would come down to name calling and you have lived up to your part. It is you who appears to take this personally, why I do not know. But the facts do not support even one of your claims, so you are also lost in Glocks big snafu. I`m not sure why people who own glocks are so bent out of shape by the facts concerning Glocks shady legacy or the attempt to quiten it. It is there in the open for all to read and dealers have followed it for over two decades and none are fooled, only the glockites and for the life of me, they won`t even admit anything when it is in print.

One more time for the hard of hearing:

Law enforcement never contacted Glock, Glock begged-gave away or deep discounted they`re items--period!! Call it what you like, but it has nothing to do with the quality or realiabilty factor and it never has. And yes in the bigger picture law enforcement are not pistolero`s and never have been.......they are the very few and far between (not a cheap shot---just a fact) Please quit.


By the way, Glock makes there money here by selling law enforcement returns/trade ins. If so great, why after the deep discounted rates to law enforcement, these pistols are traded back for new ones, then those same trade ins are sent to the glock factory, a guy with a wand waves some fairy dust over them and WA-LA they are sold to the public as "POLICE TRADE-IN`s" at nearly full retail.....not good enough for law enforcement???

And the price of a new glock is competative with who?? Easy to use HK, they have never been cheap Sir, not any item they make. Lets look at some "sample cost" shall we??




Glock 2-Barrel set 40S&W+357sig........$530
Colt 1991A1 Blue 45acp.....................$614
Glock 24 LS 40S&W...........................$580
Ruger P345pr 45acp...........................$336
S&W 1911 45acp...............................$661
Springfield 1911 45acp........................$402
S&W SW990 40S&W............................$489
S&W M&P40.......................................$425


Yep there is a vast difference in cost----NOT!!!
There are law enforcement units using Rugers, Sigs, and S&W`s
They use them becasue they are told what to use or buy, some have choices, the vast majority DO NOT!!! Some don`t like being told what to do, but the pistol hangs on their belt just the same.

When you sell (they actually rent them--NOT BUY) a Glock at 50% of cost and then resell it at 70-80(new) percent as a trade in....well I won`t go there, but there is a word for it and it is not "marketing". Rented once-sold once, remember the rent to own rip off scams of the 80`s-90`s with furniture and tV`s??

Now maybe the consumer will be better armed than just saying "the police use them" Good grief!!!!

OH and while were at it, I`ll trade target shots in the .22 forums all day with you, so dust off your goods........no more two decade old targets, we are now in the year 2006, not 1986.






LTS

[Crpdeth]

Cant stop singing that old song...

And another one gone, and another one gone....

Another one bites the dust.


I thought he had alot to offer too...Just goes to show that some people get riled up and cant control their emotions, I dont mind a good spirited debate as long as the TOS isan't broken, which admittedly can be a thin line.

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Huh??


LTS

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by LIKTOSHOOT

Huh??


LTS

I hope thats not a mating call



Crpdeth

[southernshooter]

My pistol maybe plastic but I do have the confidence to say it is from a company thats been around since the early 1900's. That is really what shyed me away from buying a Glock is that they haven't been out really that long to have that much bad publicity

[Pat Hurley]

Originally Posted by billt

Show anyone on this board one single piece of evidence that Glock is taking "purposeful losses" on firearms to law enforcement. A discount on bulk purchases perhaps, losses doubtful. You 2 need to stop feeding off each others bull$h!t. Bill T.

Totally uncalled for, my friend. You've now graduated from being merely disagreeable, to outright nasty. That's a shame. I ask you to focus your vitriol and anger at someone other than me.

Regarding your request for proof of Glock's marketing strategy of flooding the LEO market with "at" or "below cost" pistols, I fear that no amount of proof will be sufficient for you, but I now take you for a stroll down memory lane anyway....

Remember the story of the Sherriff's department who sought to rearm their Deputy's with high powered semi-auto's? Good. Let's do the math together:

• Glock's at cost
• Free leather ($75-125.00 per Deputy?)
• Generous trade-in on used Smith revolvers ($150-200 per?)

So, some quick math tells me that Glock was upside down about $200-350 per Deputy. For Glock, they are betting that this kind of investment in a Department will return 50 fold profits - customizations, apparel, accessories, but most importantly, powerful WORD OF MOUTH ADVERTISING. "Golly, seems like all the cops have Glocks... better get me one!" And it's worked beautifully. They have the market penetration that they have because this strategy has been so successful. Hey, it worked on you!

Have I explained it to your satisfaction, Bill? Do you have any more queries?

Now, for God's sake Bill, cheer up! It's just guns.

Pat Hurley

[Pat Hurley]

Originally Posted by Crpdeth

Cant stop singing that old song...

And another one gone, and another one gone....

Another one bites the dust.


I thought he had alot to offer too...Just goes to show that some people get riled up and cant control their emotions, I dont mind a good spirited debate as long as the TOS isan't broken, which admittedly can be a thin line.

Did you ban Bill? I hope that I wasn't the cause if you did.

Pat

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Actually this is simply Beretta vs Glock, if you step back in time about two decades. Thats where this began and I can`t for the life of me believe someone hasn`t already brought it up. The war is between them and there is no winner yet. Law enforcement vs Military............Glocks sour grapes--no safety, no military contract. Now if Glock were to put a safety on their gun, it would be admitting the "safety trigger" is not safe. Implied or not, sudden downfall and that nasty other thing.......law suits. They built their box and must now live in it.



LTS

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Naw billT ain`t banned.......he`s just holding his breath.


LTS

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by Pat Hurley

Did you ban Bill? I hope that I wasn't the cause if you did.

Pat

Nope, It sounded like Plano did...I hope not

Crpdeth

[polishshooter]

Originally Posted by billt

That without question is one of the most ridiculous statements I've heard yet. Bill T.

I STAND by my statement, "95% of ALL cops do NOT know how to shoot..."

The ONLY qualifier would be, OK, they know how to PULL A TRIGGER, and to GENERALLY have it pointed at a target, so let's qualify that to 95% of all cops do NOT know how to shoot WELL....


WOW, I guess YOU'VE never seen any 'LEO Only" matches, HAVE you? Or are you bychance an LEO that thinks the few hours at the "academy" somehow magically bequeathed you with extraordinary abilities as a SHOOTER when you got the badge????

Cops are AS A RULE the WORST shooters on ANY line. Get OVER it....as LTS says, it's a FACT.

Now I'm not knocking them, far FROM it, they have MUCH more to do and learn than "master" their SIDEARM, ESPECIALLY in this day and age of senseless litigation, but "Benign Neglect" is how MOST of them approach it, and it's WORSE today than it ever WAS! And that is ONE of the reasons LEOs do so BADLY when it counts against any perp with a modicum of gun knowledge,, or WORSE, get HURT....a misplaced "overconfidence" in their abilities, and are USUALLY only better than the lazy gang bangers who (luckily)NEVER fire their weapons except in the occasional "drive by" or in the air when they are stoned or on New Years Eve....and get THEIR "instruction" from HOLLYWOOD.


"LEO Only " matches/classes exist for ONLY one reason....95% of cops would NOT shoot in an "open" class where they ROUTINELY get their CLOCKS CLEANED by civilians!

I used to help run the line as an RO for LEO qualifications in Southern Ohio for YEARS, and I have NEVER had to keep my eyes on shooters more CLOSELY for stupid, unsafe, and generally "firearm ignorant" behavior than with COPS! Some of them VETERANS. (How about a RUNNING joke, EVERY year, when a VETERAN drops a shot COMPLETELY at SEVEN YARDS, during a QUALIFICATION, and says "Oh Well, that was a WARNING SHOT(?????)" HA HA??????? And the other cops LAUGH?????? )

And in MY little town NOW, we have had SEVERAL ADs with their "new" Glocks recently, one the CHIEF DETECTIVE trying out his "new holster" in the MEN'S room, put a round through the MIRROR into the LADIES room! And this guy used to be on the town's SWAT team (excuse me, the town decided they didn't need a "SWAT" team, so they called it the "Tactical Response" team instead!)!!!!


Now I HAVE shot with some LEOs that were EXCELLENT "A" class shooters, that did it RIGHT....shot against CIVILIANS, learned FROM CIVILIANS, and kept their ego and badge in their back POCKETS and PRACTICED PRACTICED PRACTICED....

Sorry, but 50-100 rounds a year practice, 50 rounds qualifying at BEST that MOST departments USED to allot is LESS than most CIVILIAN schmucks shoot in a SESSION. And training budgets are getting SMALLER....


Which IS one of the reasons CITED for MANY decisions to switch to Glocks! Case in point, the ISP just his YEAR...."Easier for new officers to shoot with LESS TRAINING..." Makes ME feel safer, let me tell YOU.


No, YOUR statement is the most uninformed one I've heard in a while....and your Sheriffs Dept being in the 5%???...NOT LIKELY....ask them who was the LAST officer they had compete in the Bianchi Cup? Or the IPSC Sectionals or Nationals?

I knew SEVERAL(and have shot with and against officers who DID make the trip to Missouri year after year, and they were among the BEST shooters I've ever SEEN or COMPETED against....), and they shot 50-60,000 rounds per YEAR just like the REST of the "A" class or "Master" CIVILIANS....or, HELL, some of the "Bs" and "Cs"....

And I will GUARANTEE you, NONE of them had (have) a Glock in their holster if their department allows it....

[Vermonter]

Maybe we should all remember that everyone here shares one thing in common: We all love guns. Period. I try to keep that in mind whenever a snarly debate gets started. Just think about the debates you would have with people who want to take away your Glock AND your BERETTA. So keeping it in perspective I find these discussions somewhat amusing. Oh and by the way, I'll take the Beretta, Kimber or even CZ anyday over a Glock. IMHO of course.

[delta13soultaker]

When I get around to building another 1911(which seems manufacturers are all racing to see who can put the biggest price tag on one) I'll pack it, but in the meantime I carry a Glock 17, cause I think it's an okay roscoe for my intended purposes. I don't care if it's ugly...it's not going into a beauty pagent. I don't care if it's boring...I have other things to be excited about.

Argueing over Glocks kinda reminds me of people argueing over graphite golf clubs.

[polishshooter]

No, Delta, nobody argues that graphite clubs are BETTER....just whether they are better ENOUGH to justify a new set!

And I'm NOT against Polymer frames either...


The thing that keeps the argument going though is the pretty widespread problems Glock had with the blow ups in the beginning, and their BS excuses and failure to take ANY blame for it, blaming the SHOOTERS, along with the almost FANATICAL devotion of the "Blind Glockies" that just will NOT tolerate ANYTHING other than PRAISE for it, like it is somehow the best pistol design EVER. (Sieg HEIL!!! )

It's NOT, but then, NONE are, some are better than others for SOME things.

If Glock would have come through with a complete recall, and then issued a "new and improved' version, a LOT of this wouldn't be happening....but a LOT of us were so INSULTED by their condescension and convoluted explanations that WE are biased (granted, maybe irrationally so TOO) AGAINST them just as much! I for one would NEVER own a handgun that issues warnings "DO Not Use Reloads!" That tells me, and other experienced shooters (that GOT that way by shooting ALOT, which by DEFINITION means "reloading!")they STILL have PROBLEMS they aren't facing....

And as for the Glockies, they also ALWAYS seem to have to KNOCK some OTHER design, usually the 1911, (but as in here, it looks like it's HK's turn!) when PRAISING their own...which makes the 1911 guys for example get their panties in a wad, MAINLY because there is SO much HISTORY on their side, as opposed to the Glock.....and of COURSE any other owner is sure to jump in....

Now there ARE a lot of shooters out there who LIKE Glocks, but will gladly and objectively tell you of their warts as well as strong points, but the "Blind Glockies" hammer even THEM, kinda like Liberal Democrats eating their own like they did to Joe Lieberman

And as far as the "ugly" thing, that never entered into the equation for ME, MANY "ugly" machines function well, and MANY "beautiful" peices of machinery are DOGS...and not JUST guns....


And Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ANYWAY, which is why ugly people still get married TOO, and some people thought the PACER was a cool looking little car....


WHY can't the "Glockies" concede that the Glock is just another "pretty good," but not perfect, handgun, with some cool features, and some not so cool, and they like it, and here's why, but you may not, and that's cool.....?


Because ANOTHER part of the equation is that it's simply FUN to get "Glockies" (and other zealots!) to just go OFF...

And lest ANYONE misconstrue what I'm saying, I ONCE got into a MAJOR argument DEFENDING Glocks (GASP! )

It was during the early Clinton years when some @sshole Democratic congressmen had that ex-LEO smuggle a STRIPPED Glock past airport security, with the recoil spring wrapped around his GLASSESand the slide down his PANTS, that STILL set off the metal detector so he flashed his BADGE... .and then the Democrats started to call for the "Plastic Gun Ban!"

I will defend to the DEATH your right to own a Glock, even if it IS a "Plastic POS!"

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Pacer-----Gremlin..........there can only be one person to defend those, Polish???? You have finally revealed yourself.

Hey, I got a G17 only cause it`s a wonder nine---member them??????
when you were told you needed 17 rounds..........lmao and only cops deserved to have them-there high capacity x-ray proof plastic/"ceramic" (Die Hard) pistols. THUD!


LTS

[delta13soultaker]

Yeah! But you know when somebody is hurtin the clubs may get blamed...and when another guy beats ya on a bunch of holes...it's just cause he's using graphite right?? lol

I remember the wonder nine. Back when everyone acted like it was new. Those were interesting times huh.

[Deputy Dawg]

Man mention the word Glock around here and look out,can't you just feel the love.

[Pat Hurley]

I miss Bill. There's just something about pompous, glassy-eyed, and visceral devotion to Glock's that tickles me something fierce.

Perhaps if we promised to say something indefensibly and absurdly kind about Glock's each day, he'd be less ill tempered.

Oh, and he was just about to extol the endless virtues of the Ford Crown Victoria (because most cops drive them) before he had his temper tantrum.

Can we give him another chance to behave himself?

Pat Hurley

[polishshooter]

And Oh yeah, in 1905, John Moses Browning EXPLAINED the "unsupported Chamber" of his Model 1905 .45acp, and what it MEANT, and WHY it was THERE! EVERY automatic pistol design except some locking bolt wierd ones like the Wildley or Auto Mag HAS them! It has been KNOWN by ANY automatic pistol guy, designer, shooter, 'smith SINCE. It is NOT something "new..."

The ONLY thing "new" was Glock explaining it like THEY "discovered it," and that it was somehow "peculiar" to their "superior modern exclusive" design, and use it to EXPLAIN "WHY you cannot use reloads, OR lead, silly!"

I've seen .45 1911s that looked like they were "throated and polished" with a diamond tipped ROTO rooter that STILL didn't blow the unsupported case with RELOADS and LEAD....in fact the ONLY 1911s I WITNESSED blowing were Supers with Numbnuts "pushing" them to hit "major." But when THEY blew, they launched a magazine down and out, and not EVERY time was it destroyed, and loosened or blew off a couple of grip panels, and only OCCASIONALLY separated the frame from the slide (saw that only once from a REAL numbnuts! ) but the frame did NOT blow into pieces of polymer shrapnel...which incidentally you can find MANY pictures of on the net with just a LITTLE bit of searching....heck, Glock Cat Failures have WEBSITES devoted to them! Show me ANY other handgun that not only has a "special NAME" for their "Catastrophic Failures," (uh, do you THINK they are or at least WERE THAT common to get named KABOOMS?) but whole WEBSITES devoted to them! NO other handgun design has that.


"The "Unsupported Case" explanation was ONE MORE condescending incredible attempt by Glock to obfuscate the issue of their design FAILURE....ANYBODY that knew anything about autos knew it was firing before it went into BATTERY, but the Glockies either DIDN'T know enough about the functioning of locked breech auto pistols, or just "blindly" accepted the explanation of Heil Herr Glock's "spinmeisters...."


And people got HURT over it.....

[Pat Hurley]

Originally Posted by Deputy Dawg

Man mention the word Glock around here and look out,can't you just feel the love.

Glock's blow, my friend. Thus the eloquent name of this thread.

There's no escaping it, no hiding from it, no spinning it, and no ignoring it. They just blow (no pun intended, Polish!).

Pat Hurley

[flopshot]

my , what a playyard dispute. seems simple to me. you like them you buy them, you hate them you don't. i own two and never bring up any competitive models. it does seem as though these disputes usually begin with someone knocking the glock, not the other way around. it's kind of like the trash talk at the local drive in about who's car is faster. it's real easy to settle at the track with fair starts and accurate time records, but on the street it's prone to missinterpretation of the facts. i have to wonder about someone that starts a "glocks suck" thread. what's the point ?

[Pat Hurley]

Originally Posted by flopshot

i have to wonder about someone that starts a "glocks suck" thread. what's the point ?

You're not alone Amigo. Folks have been wondering about me for years. But I just keep on dazzling them with my brilliance!

Pat Hurley

[Deputy Dawg]

Originally Posted by Pat Hurley

You're not alone Amigo. Folks have been wondering about me for years. But I just keep on dazzling them with my brilliance!

Pat Hurley

[Deputy Dawg]

It is true that if you have a badge, you can buy a brand new Glock around here for $399.00. If you want night sights they are $475.00 plus tax.

[Pat Hurley]

Originally Posted by Deputy Dawg

It is true that if you have a badge, you can buy a brand new Glock around here for $399.00. If you want night sights they are $475.00 plus tax.

Shhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! Don't tell Bill! He'll say mean things to you and accuse you of all kinds of muck raking and libel.

Now Dawg, I need you to repeat after me... Facts don't matter where Glock's are concerned (say five times, then follow with three Hail Mary's, one Our Father, and two Acts of Contrition).

Fr. Pat Hurley, Gunner therapist/Spritual advisor