Bastogne

[Ursus]

What do you think? Did Patton saved the 101st in Bastogne? Or they needed not to be saved?

[Pistolenschutze]

The actions of the 101st at Bastone were courageous beyond measure, but they were nearly out of ammo and food, and they indeed were out of medical supplies. I think Patton's arrival saved them. The fact remains though, they stopped the German advance into the vital road junction at Bastogne, and that was critical in stopping the Germans during the Ardennes Offensive.

[Ursus]

I agree with you qualifying my answer. They needed the supplies, not exactly Patton. But, as they did not have nor got the supplies, Patton indeed saved them.

[polishshooter]

Actually, Ursus, that is a VERY good question.

Without a doubt. Patton "saved" the Screaming Eagles (and OTHERS from other US units, not ALL skedaddled, just MOST....) BUT he didn't exactly lead any "Bastogne Relief Force" either....


Patton's entire attack, which meant he had to DISENGAGE from a MAJOR attack to the east, reform and reorientate his ENTIRE army MORE than 90 degrees to the NORTH and ATTACK 100 or so miles away in 48 HOURS, which just MAY be the most BRILLIANT and audacious move by a major armored force in HISTORY, AND incidentally could NOT have been done with any OTHER Tank than the M4, OR probably any OTHER Armored Force in the WORLD at that time OR before, and was actually planned BEFORE The 101st was sent to Bastogne, was actually the MAIN counterattack into Von Rundstedts flank meant to crush the ENTIRE offensive, which it DID, not MERELY save Bastogne...

But PS is right, the 101st was down to very little ammo, literally tens of rounds per gun, less than half that per artillery tube in the perimeter....now with the weather lifting MAYBE it could have been resupplied by air, they gave it a good college try already with mixed results, but I don't think ANY of the Troopers were "upset" to see the first of Pattons M4s rolling into their lines....


And while I don't want to take ANYTHING away from the importance of what the 101st did at Bastogne, what some elements of the 82nd along with other straight leg outfits, some from the 9th Army, did holding on the Eisenborg ridge to the NORTH is what made Bastogne even MORE important to the Germans....once they were STOPPED there, the ONLY other option to keep the offensive moving and supplied was through Bastogne...they break through Elsenborg, and the little towns up there, and they can BYPASS Bastogne..the ONLY reason the guys up north didn't get the same press is probably because they (1) were never "surrounded," and (2) the Germans never offered THEM "terms," so they didn't get to think up any catchy one word ANSWERS.....

[Ursus]

Fame is also a fickle mistress.

[polishshooter]

"NUTS"

[polishshooter]

Actually, Ursus, you kind of hit on the DIFFERENCE between a "History Buff" and a "Historian...."

MANY people are well read on History, and know a lot about it, or at least certain parts (nobody can know EVERYTHING about ANYTHING, and DEFINITELY not enough about EVERYTHING ) and will come to hard and fast, yes or no opinions about things they are SURE of....

HISTORIANS actually use a LOT of "Maybes," or "Qualifiers" in their answers, and it's NOT because they don't want to "commit," it;s just that the DEEPER you go into ANY topic, the MORE you understand it, the LESS certain you become!

One of my FAVORITE sayings is "The More you know the LESS you know!"

Many times the guy who knows the MOST, may not be SURE of ANYTHING......

If you listen CLOSELY you can pick out the REAL experts (not JUST on history, but on just about ANYTHING)...

Somebody asks what appears to be a SIMPLE question, and you will get a funny, distorted look, and if the guy (or girl!) DOESN'T immediately start asking YOU questions, like "do you mean...." or "Define this for me...." or something like that, he will PROBABLY start out with something like, "Well, USUALLY, but not ALWAYS....." or "That's a Good question, because SOMETIMES...." or "Well while THIS may happen, there were a few big instances when THAT happened...."or sometimes an uncomfortable, "I don't REALLY know, BUT...." (he probably DOES, but also knows there is more to KNOW about it....) And the answer WILL be longer than you expected it to be....and you MAY be disappointed....

Beware the guy with the READY, SHORT and SWEET answer...he may not REALLY know as much as he THINKS he knows....and UNFORTUNATELY, many of us when we ASK those questions, ESPECIALLY when we are just starting out in something new, or for the first time, WANT a "simple" answer, so we "buy" them....which is how "Myths" (or "half-truths?) start.....

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by polishshooter

Beware the guy with the READY, SHORT and SWEET answer...he may not REALLY know as much as he THINKS he knows....and UNFORTUNATELY, many of us when we ASK those questions, ESPECIALLY when we are just starting out in something new, or for the first time, WANT a "simple" answer, so we "buy" them....which is how "Myths" (or "half-truths?) start.....

You think like a historian, Polish, which is just about the highest compliment anyone interested in history can hope to achieve. You obviously understand that history is NEVER simplistic because, by definition, it is the chronicle of human beings, who are themselves neither simple nor logical. I wish a lot more of my students could achieve that level of understanding. Human motivation, and the actions resulting from that motivation, are never, or almost never, either logical or even rational. If a historian seeks the true underlying causes for any historical event, he must therefore never limit himself, or herself, only to logical progressions. For example, the actions of the 101st and others at Bastone, or the stand of those brave men at the Alamo, were not logical by any Aristotelian standard, but they happened anyway, and the course of human history was forever altered. If one wishes to study history, one must first study people.

[polishshooter]

Or, to PUT it "simplistically." That's why it's necessary to "Play the Game."

We could almost start a new topic on wars that SHOULDN'T have turned out the way they did....the "underdog" has done quite well throughout History!


And PS, one of the many "Epiphanies" I have had is that it is NOT only applicable to HISTORY!

It applies to this FORUM too! ESPECIALLY talking about "guns" or "hunting...."

But I REALLY learned it when I raced. I knew NOTHING when I started, just as a fan since I was a kid and went to races all the time at a little NASCAR track near my house...


THOUGHT I knew it all (as a fan, could recite ALL the stats and stufF from ANY Nascar division, all you had to do was ASK me, and I KNEW it ....)

But the FIRST time you climb into a cage and you strap on the helmet and drive onto Winchester Speedway, which IS the "Fastest Half-Mile" track in the WORLD no matter WHAT anybody says and you start thinking you could DIE out here, what the HELL are you doing...

IS when you start LISTENING and WATCHING....and it ISN'T to the guys "freely" offering the advice, or the "Rich guys" "BUYING" speed....

It's the cultivation of friendships with the OLD guys, the guys out there on a shoestring that have been DOING it for a while...ask THEM the questions, and after you get the funny looks, and the hesitation, you WILL find stuff the MATTERS, that probably DOESN'T take a lot of cash, little tricks, adjustments you can make to the car AND your driving...

By the END of my first season I WAS a "Racer..." I UNDERSTOOD....and rookies asked ME questions, and I found myself starting my answers with "Well, I don't KNOW, the OTHER guys seem to do this, but I found if you try THIS first.... " And some guys LISTENED, and some guys were disappointed and ran over to some rich guy with the nice looking car and the short answers and asked HIM....

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by polishshooter

We could almost start a new topic on wars that SHOULDN'T have turned out the way they did....the "underdog" has done quite well throughout History!

Actually, that's not a bad idea, Polish. It might well prove most interesting. Two wars come to mind almost immediately: the Revolution and the War of 1812, not to mention Alexander's invasion of the Persian Empire in the 4th century BC.

The old timers truly are the ones to listen to; my own experience confirms that as well. That lesson was brought home to me mostly in Vietnam where it was the old sergeants with two or more tours under their belts who knew how to stay alive in that environment. If you listened to them, you stood a pretty good chance of making it through the first 30 to 60 days, and if you did that, you might just make it back home on the big assed bird at the end of your tour.

[Nighthawk]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

The old timers truly are the ones to listen to; my own experience confirms that as well.

that's why I follow yalls posts. history is not one of my strong points. give me a service manual and a machine to tear apart and I'm happy, but I'm trying to learn because I believe history is very important, but don't always make sense. as to the old part I think I got both of you bet and my brain doesn't like obsorbing new data.

[AL MOUNT]

My "Qualified Yes" is winning......