Iver Johnson pistol

[klongfel]

Hi,

My father gave me a small pistol that was his grandfathers. He thinks it is from the late 1800s. I'm curious if anyone can tell me more information about the pistol. My father knew very little about it. I have attached a photo and below are all the details I can find on the pistol:

On Top of barrel:

Iver Johnson's Arms & Cycle Works
Fitchburg, Mass

On bottom of grip:

PAT June 16.96 AUG.25

Inside grip:

S57786 (possibly S59986)

It is a 5 shot pistol with each chamber being about 3/8" in diameter. Sorry if I am not using the correct terminology.

Thanks a lot for any information.

Kevin

[Marlin]

Many decades ago my Father passed on to me an Iver Johnson .38 S&W, or .38 short by some, that had been given him when he and his girl friend at the time were 16 years old in high school, in about 1919.

The young lady thought he'd like to have the service pistol her Dad had carried on the job as an LEO in Brewer or Bangor, Maine at the time. I believe that he had been killed in the line of duty.

The S# on that item, which was stolen during a break-in back in the early 90s, was 504XX and had the same patent markings on the gun.

Hope this might help.

[b.goforth]

klongfel,
this revolver is a iver johnson's arms & cycle works second model (1896-1908) small frame 'safety automatic hammer revolver'. the "S" letter code was used in 1907 and 1908. serial numbers S57786 and S59986 were both made the same year 1907. all second models (1896-1908) were manufactured for black powder cartridge pressures and are not considered safe with modern smokeless ammo.
bill

marlin,
without more details i would guess your revolver was from the same era and also a second model.
bill

[southernshooter]

Welcome Klong
With it being from that time and not safe with modern ammo. I would say you have a great gun to go in a shadowbox.

[klongfel]

Thanks for the responses and excellent information. What a great forum!

What caliber is this? .38 because the chamber is 3/8"? My father thought it might be a .22, but the chamber seems larger?

What is a shadowbox?

Thanks,

Kevin

[b.goforth]

klongfel,
kthe caliber is 32 S&W (not the 32 S&W Long).
bill

[Goody]

Originally Posted by b.goforth

klongfel,
kthe caliber is 32 S&W (not the 32 S&W Long).
bill

I think it is probably a 38 S&W. Being a 5 shot and assuming he is close on his measurements, 3/8 = .375. A 32 would measure closer to .320

[b.goforth]

goody,
the chambers are described as being about 3/8" not the bore. the letter code 'S' was only used on the safety automatic revolver in 1907 and 1908 on the small frame 32 S&W centerfire. iver johnson's arms & cycle works used different letter codes for different calibers and different frame sizes and even different ones for hammerless models. some of these letters were used several times some only once. "S" was only used in those two years. the small frame safety automatic revolvers were only available as a 7 shot 22 rimfire or a 5 shot 32 S&W centerfire. the six shot 32 S&W long was not offered until after 1909 (in the third model) and it was only offered in the large frame versions). this is not guess work but some of the information i obtained from the factory in 1983 while researching for my book on iver johnson's arms & cycle works. also to the trained eye there are diffenences in the large and small frame models. the picture furnished is a small frame.
bill

[Goody]

I stand corrected, and remain your faithful servant sir.

By the way, what book are you referring to?

[b.goforth]

goody,
i apologize for sounding like a know-it-all but i get very protective about information going out on the web in regards to iver johnson handguns, some of it out there is incorrect and i want anything i am connected with to be as correct as possible.

since the publication of my book "iver johnson's arms & cycle works handguns 1871-1978" in the middle 1990s (revised edition 'iver johnson's arms & cycle works firearms 1871-1993' due this fall) i have tried to correct as much of the incorrect information as i can and educate every one of the collectablity of iver johnson firearms. in the next couple of years the manucsript for a book on H&R firearms should be ready for publication, which i hope will clear up some of the misconceptions about that company.

for those interested the iver johnson book will be available from www.gunshowbooks.com and the publisher has a target date of the week before thanksgiving. he is accepting orders now.
bill

[Goody]

No apology needed, I was not offended in the least. Looks like an interesting read.

[Xracer]

Bill.....I look forward to buying your book when it comes out....but I think you've mistitled it. It should be titled:

"Bill's Babies.....Ye Compleat Encylopedia Of Everything Iver Johnson Ever Made."

[b.goforth]

not sure i have covered every thing. i have just learned there may have been either an assembly operation or manufacturing operation in canada durings the 1930s. a 'hercules grade' iver johnson hammerless double barrel has turned up marked iver johnson's arms & cycle works montreal canada "made in canada" and a single barrel shotgun marked 'cobourg canada' (without the 'made in' markings). the research is never ending on just the firearms aspect. the family was into a lot of business, ranging from raising pure bred dogs of most breed, automobile dealership and hotels and this does not cover the 'cycle' part of the name. they also manufactured bicycles and a motorcycle. all their businesses were incorporated but wholly owned by the family. last family member to run the family business was luthor m. otto III, iver johnson's grandson, he passed on about 1973/1975. his children (a son and daughter were teenagers at the time) moved on to other things when the company was sold. for anybody who is interested iver johnson's arms and cycle works was the only firearms company to remain in control of the founders family for over 100 years.
bill

[southernshooter]

Ditto on what Xracer said, I am looking forward to it.

[gun#1]

I sold a gun just like that in similar condition last year at an auction I got $400 for it so i,d think about selling that bad boy.
-Jerold

[jmeinkoth]

Originally Posted by klongfel

Hi,

My father gave me a small pistol that was his grandfathers. He thinks it is from the late 1800s. I'm curious if anyone can tell me more information about the pistol. My father knew very little about it. I have attached a photo and below are all the details I can find on the pistol:

On Top of barrel:

Iver Johnson's Arms & Cycle Works
Fitchburg, Mass

On bottom of grip:

PAT June 16.96 AUG.25

Inside grip:

S57786 (possibly S59986)

It is a 5 shot pistol with each chamber being about 3/8" in diameter. Sorry if I am not using the correct terminology.

Thanks a lot for any information.

Kevin

Hello,
Just came across this site looking to identify this very pistol. Mine has a pearl handle and the serial number is on the trigger guard #13111

[jmeinkoth]

to klongfel.
Not sure how this works but I have a pistol as described with a pearl handle and serial number on the trigger guard of 13111. I received it from my wife's grandmother when she passed away. How old is this and is it worth anything???

[b.goforth]

INFORMATION NEEDED TO IDENTIFY
IVER JOHNSON’S ARMS & CYCLE WORKS SAFETY AUTOMATIC REVOLVERS

1. EXACT MARKINGS;
A. TOP OF BARREL
B. LEFT SIDE OF BARREL
C. BOTTOM OF BUTT STRAP

2. SERIAL NUMBER FOUND ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE GRIP STRAP UNDER THE GRIP PANEL (MAIN LOCATION SINCE 1896). THE SERIAL NUMBER FOUND ON THE BOTTOM OF THE TRIGGER GUARD WAS ONLY USED AFTER 1904 AND SINCE TRIGGER GUARDS ARE INTERCHANGABLE AND THIS LOCATION DOES NOT HAVE THE LETTER CODE IT CANNOT BE USED FOR PROPER ADINTIFICATION

3. BARREL LENGTH;
A. STANDARD BARREL LENGTH FOR LARGE FRAME IS 3 ¼ INCHES
B. STANDARD BARREL LENGTH FOR SMALL FRAME IS 3 INCHES

4. HAMMER SPRING
A. FIRST AND SECOND MODELS SINGLE FLAT LEAF
BLACK POWDER MODELS
B. THIRD MODEL CAPTIVE COIL
SMOKELESS POWDER

CALIBERS:
A. FIRST MODEL LARGE FRAME HAMMER OR HAMMERLESS 38 S&W (5)
FIRST MODEL SMALL FRAME HAMMER 22 RIMFIRE, 32 S&W (5)
FIRST MODEL SMALL FRAME HAMMERLESS 32 S&W (5)
B. SECOND MODEL LARGE FRAME HAMMER OR HAMMERLESS 38 S&W (5)
SECOND MODEL SMALL FRAME HAMMER 22 RIMFIRE (7), 32 S&W (5)
SECOND MODEL SMALL FRAME HAMMERLESS 32 S&W (5)
C. THIRD MODEL LARGE FRAME HAMMER OR HAMMERLESS
32 S&W LONG (6) AND 38 S&W (5)
THIRD MODEL SMALL FRAME HAMMER OR HAMMERLESS
22 RIMFIRE (7), 32 S&W (5)

[jskell]

I too experienced the same. My father, who turned 100 on March 13, 2008 passed later that month. I have his Iver Johnson 38 short pistol, Serial number 37605. Can someone tell me what year this pistol was manufactured and if it is the second or third model? Any idea what it is worth? I also assume from the forum that it may not be safe to fire???

[b.goforth]

THIRD MODEL SAFETY AUTOMATIC HAMMER REVOLVER
(Smokeless Powder Cartridges)--------------------1909-1941
LARGE FRAME AND SMALL FRAME VERSIONS USES HAMMER THE HAMMER ACTION: Double top post barrel latch with Hammer the Hammer action. This model redesigned to be strong enough for smokeless powder. All coil springs, hard rubber grip panels with Owls head at top, optional oversize grips of hard rubber or wood were offered. Two frame sizes, four calibers, Standard barrel length: small frame 3 inches, large frame 3 ¼ inches. Calibers: small frame .22 rimfire 7 rounds cylinder capacity, .32 centerfire 5 rounds cylinder capacity, large frame .32 Special centerfire with 6 rounds cylinder capacity, .38 centerfire with 5 rounds cylinder capacity; Weight: small frame .22 rimfire with 3 inch barrel 13 ounces, .32 centerfire with 3 inch barrel 13 ½ ounces, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel .32 Special 19 ounces, .38 centerfire with 3 ¼ inch barrel 18 ¼ inches; Height: small frame 3 ¾ inches, large frame 3 7/8 inches; Frame length: small frame 4 3/16 inches, large frame 5 inches; Overall length: small frame with 3 inch barrel 6 3/8 inches, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 7 3/8 inches. Main serial number location on left side of grip frame grips must be removed to see. The Third Model features a double top post barrel latch, coil hammer spring and four cross pins in the lower frame.
VALUE: 100%=$250 60%=$115

without knowing the exact letter code serial number prefix found under the grips on the left side i will have to give you an either or date
C37605=1911
H37605=1921
bill

[rogermac]

I have a hammerless iver johnson revolver from my grandmother. just trying to get the same identifying info and if it is safe to fire.

top of barrel: iver johnson's arms & cycle works fitchburc mass u.s.a.

left side of barrel: nothing

bottom of butt strap: pat'd apr 6,86. feb 15,87. may 10,87. mar 13,88. aug 25,88. pat's pending

serial number: T6189

barrel length:3 in

appears to be a single leaf in the butt strap

[PetahW]

[What is a shadowbox?]

A shadowbox is a wall display, similar to a painting, where an object is generally centrally mounted on a matte background framed by a deep side frame that stands out from the background and wall (usually about 2 1/2"-3" high).

[jskell]

Thank you Mr. B Goforth. The serial number, 37605 was on the bottom of the trigger guard and it had no letters. I took the handle off and the serial number was stamped on the frame handle and had the letter C; therefore it is C37605. This is a 38 with 5 rounds capacity in the cylinder. Thanks for your help. I had no idea this pistol was that old.

[b.goforth]

rogermac,
the patent dates listed were used between 1903 and 1905, this infor and the pictures confirm this is a second model hammerless. however the Letter code T was not used until 1907/1908 and then on the hammer model. is it possible the letter code could be a badly stamped J which was used on the second model hammerless between 1903 and 1905. if so your revolver was manufactured in 1903 and designed for black powder only.

SECOND MODEL SAFETY AUTOMATIC HAMMERLESS REVOLVER
(Black Powder Cartridges)------------- -–1896-1908
LARGE FRAME AND SMALL FRAME VERSIONS USES HAMMER THE HAMMER ACTION: Double top post barrel latch, Hammer the Hammer action, nickel finish with blue optional, two frame sizes and three calibers. Hard rubber grip panels with Owls head at top. Calibers: small frame .22 rimfire with 7 rounds cylinder capacity, .32 centerfire with 5 rounds cylinder capacity; Standard barrel length: small frame 3 inches, large frame 3 ¼ inches; Weight: small frame with 3 inch barrel .22 rimfire 12 ½ ounces, .32 centerfire 13 ½ ounces, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 17 ¾ ounces; Height: small frame 3 ¾ inches, large frame 3 7/8 inches; Frame length: small frame 4 3/16 inches, large frame 5 inches; Overall all length: small frame with 3 inch barrel 6 3/8 inches, large frame with 3 ¼ inch barrel 7 3/8 inches. Main serial number location on left side of grip frame grips must be removed to see. The Second Model features a double top post barrel latch, flat leaf hammer spring and two cross pins in the lower frame.
VALUE: 100%=$285 60%=$150
For revolvers equipped with Bourne Knuckleduster add 100%
bill

[Jon C]

I got a Iver Johnson from my grandfather about 40 years ago. The pistol has Model 1900 and Double Action stamped on the top. The trigger guard has 19766 stamped on it. The Barrel is 1.75" long. Overall the pistol is in good condition. Any idea of its age? Caliber? Could/should it be safe to use?
Jon C