carry in a bank? - The Firearms Forum

BigSam77 · 11-09-2006, 06:17 PM

This seemed like the right category of rthe post. A friend and I were arguing over whether it is assumed that, even with a permit, you cannot carry in a bank. I do not believe they are specifically listed. I know about church school, courthouse and places with booze. I hope someone is up to the know enough to give me a fairly definitive answer. I am curious nationwide, but to be specific, I live in Virginia.

Marlin · 11-09-2006, 06:48 PM

Banks are not on the list in most states that I am familiar with as an exception.

Some states, as in Mississippi, do allow one to restrict carry on their premises but require a standardized notification sign to be prominantly displayed.

To check your particular state, you should look at the requirements for it in Packing.org or in the list of requirements shown on the NRA-ILA site.

rosierita · 11-09-2006, 07:55 PM

banks are not federal property, so they arent automatically "immune". if they have the "no concealed weapons allowed" sign tho, then of course, you cant carry there.

Nighthawk · 11-09-2006, 08:04 PM

not positive but think here their on same list as schools- no carry

VegasTech702 · 11-09-2006, 08:24 PM

I live here in Las Vegas, NV and I use Nevada State Bank. I actually wrote them via email to ask if open carry was allowed into their banks.They said that they had no problem as long as it was legal. I have carried into their branches many times without incident, openly..

Marlin T · 11-09-2006, 08:33 PM

You can in NM unless there is a sign.

berto64 · 11-09-2006, 09:10 PM

As far as I know there's no problems in Idyhoe. I carry alla time and I've been in lotsa banks. Didn't see any negative signs.

Course if it's concealed well who's to know?

Pat Hurley · 11-09-2006, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigSam77

I know about church school, courthouse and places with booze.

Dittos on the advice to check with packing.org.

Also, the rules are different from state to state regarding places that serve alcohol. In Florida, you cannot go into bar with a CCW under any circumstances, except if you're an employee and the boss has given you express permission to do so. If it's a restaurant that happens to serves alcohol, you are free to carry.

In contrast to Florida, the State of Arizona forbids carrying in ANY establishment that serves (not just sells) alcohol. Period.

In New York, D.C., Massachusetts, and California, just considering gun ownership in the privacy of your own thoughts, thinking conservative thoughts, and jingoistically displaying the flag are strictly prohibited!

Pat Hurley

Bruce FLinch · 11-09-2006, 10:22 PM

[
In New York, D.C., Massachusetts, and California, just considering gun ownership in the privacy of your own thoughts, thinking conservative thoughts, and jingoistically displaying the flag are strictly prohibited!

Pat Hurley[/QUOTE]

That's too damn close to the truth!

southernshooter · 11-09-2006, 10:24 PM

As Marlin said as long as their isn't a sign it is fine in Ms.

Ursus · 11-10-2006, 05:44 AM

Here you can't carry in a bank, but the bank provides a storing place with an armed guard. They all post signs.

Pistolenschutze · 11-10-2006, 08:35 AM

Hmmm, this is interesting. Here in Colorado, when I got my CCW, I was told (perhaps incorrectly) that it was illegal to carry the weapon in a bank, not because state law prevented it, but because federal law did, the theory being that most banks are insured by FDIC and thus federal law prevails, as in, for example, the postoffice. I need to check up on this because I often find myself in that situation when I'm running errands and have been leaving my weapon in my vehicle. Marlin, do you know what the federal law on this actually is? I would be most interested.

Mithrandir · 11-10-2006, 09:14 AM

out..

Marlin · 11-10-2006, 09:30 AM

Pistol, here is an in-depth analysis from Gun Talk at packing.org. I think it should shed some light. The Bottom Line is that unless a particular state specifically prohibits carry in a United States Postal facility, it is NOT illegal to do so for properly licensed individuals.

This analysis is written by an attorney who practices in tlhe Big Apple.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Concealed Carry in the Post Office

An Analysis by Robert P. Firriolo, Esq.

It is no secret that lots of wrong information on firearms laws is propagated by the Internet and by word of mouth. In my experience, one of the most prevalent myths is that it is a federal offense to carry a firearm in a United States Post Office even if you have a permit or license to carry. As a general proposition, this is simply not the case. While state law or carry permit restrictions may prohibit carry in a Post Office, I have yet to locate a federal law that actually criminalizes such conduct where state law and permit regulations allow it.

The statute tossed out in support of the proposition that carry in a post office is illegal is 18 U.S.C. § 930. This statute is also cited in posters typically displayed in federal facilities giving notice that carrying firearms in the facility is a crime. The posters do not even mention the exception to the law that applies to those private citizens who lawfully carry handguns.

Here are the relevant sections of the law:

Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930. - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

a. Except as provided in subsection (d),

whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

d. Subsection (a) shall not apply to -

3. the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

In order to fall within the exception to the law, two conditions have to be met. First, one has to be engaged in the "lawful carrying of firearms." This means you cannot be a "prohibited person" such as a convicted felon, a fugitive from justice, or fall within any of the other categories that would prohibit one from lawfully purchasing or owning a firearm under federal law.

It also means that it must be legal for you to carry the firearm under any applicable federal, state, and local laws. If, for example, it is illegal under state law to carry a firearm in a post office, the exception in section (d) (3) of 18 U.S.C. § 930 offers you no protection. The same is true about any local regulations or restrictions on the terms of your carry permit. In other words, if state or local law, or the terms of your carry permit, prohibit carry in a post office, then such carry is not "lawful," and the exception to the ban on carrying in federal facilities does not apply to you.

The second condition that has to be met for one to fall within the exception to the ban on carrying a firearm in a federal facility is that one must be carrying in the facility "incident to hunting or other lawful purposes." One cannot be in the facility with intent to commit a crime, or while committing a crime, and fall within the exception.

A simple test of whether one may legally carry in a post office could involve answering four questions:

1. Is it illegal for me to carry a handgun on the street outside the post office?

2. Is there a state or local law prohibiting carry in a post office?

3. Am I violating the terms of my CCW permit by carrying inside a post office?

4. Am I going to commit a crime or engage in some unlawful activity once inside the facility?

If one answers "no" to all four questions, it seems that one falls within the exception to the federal ban on carrying in a federal facility. The answer to the first three questions seeks to resolve whether one is engaged in the "lawful carrying" of a firearm. The answer to the final question seeks to resolve whether one is carrying "incident to ... lawful purposes."

It is important to note that the term "Federal facility" does not include a federal court facility. Even with a valid concealed weapon or handgun license, it is a federal offense to bring a firearm into a federal court facility. Under this statute, the only persons who may lawfully carry in a federal court facility are federal, state, or local law enforcement officers on official duty, or a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if authorized to possess the firearm.

Anyone with verifiable information about a CCW permit holder who was prosecuted for violation of 18 U.S.C. § 930 (or any other federal law), and who was also not allegedly committing, or attempting to commit, a crime (other than illegal firearm possession), should contact The Gun Zone or the author and provide details.

Addendum

The Code of Federal Regulations contains the following regulation (excerpted in pertinent part; full text from link):

39 C.F.R. 232.1 Conduct on Postal Property:

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
However, looking further down the regulation, we see the following:

(p) Penalties and other law.

(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.

Regulations in the CFR have to be based on laws in the United States Code, must be consistent with them, and cannot supercede them. Section (p)(2) of the 39 CFR 232.1 recognizes this fact. That is, the CFR cannot abrogate applicable Federal law.

In so far as firearms are concerned, 18 U.S.C. § 930 (a) is essentially the same as 39 CFR 232.1 (l), except that the regulations do not contain the exception for lawful concealed carry contained in 18 U.S.C. § 930 (d) (3). But by its own terms, the regulations do not override the United States Code ("Federal law)", which does allows carrying a firearm in federal facility.

In other words, the CFR cannot trump the U.S.C., and the U.S.C. allows lawful concealed carry in a federal facility.

Nighthawk · 11-10-2006, 10:15 AM

just went to packing.org and banks are not on list. may be that instructor thought it fed law

Pistolenschutze · 11-10-2006, 02:12 PM

Marlin, thanks for posting that. I printed it out for future reference. I need to recheck the actual Colorado regs to see if there is a specific provision against carrying in banks and post offices. If there is, as the lawyers say, the issue becomes moot; if not, I probably wouldn't chance it anyway, but it's still nice to know what the law actually is. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse," or so goes the legal maxim.

BigSam77 · 11-29-2006, 09:13 PM

Hey all. I just wanted to give an update. one of my local banks has an armed guard outside at all times and I asked him about the situation. He said it is certainly not a federal rule and not a virginia rule. You can carry unless a specific company or branch office post a sign on the door. IT would be right up there with the no smoking and shirt/ shoes deal.

11-09-2006, 06:17 PM	#1
BigSam77 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 36	carry in a bank? This seemed like the right category of rthe post. A friend and I were arguing over whether it is assumed that, even with a permit, you cannot carry in a bank. I do not believe they are specifically listed. I know about church school, courthouse and places with booze. I hope someone is up to the know enough to give me a fairly definitive answer. I am curious nationwide, but to be specific, I live in Virginia. -->

11-09-2006, 06:48 PM	#2
Marlin TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: At SouthernMoss' side forever! Contributor Posts: 13,853	Re: carry in a bank? Banks are not on the list in most states that I am familiar with as an exception. Some states, as in Mississippi, do allow one to restrict carry on their premises but require a standardized notification sign to be prominantly displayed. To check your particular state, you should look at the requirements for it in Packing.org or in the list of requirements shown on the NRA-ILA site. __________________ *The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.* *The only criminal class native to the United States is Congress.*

11-09-2006, 07:55 PM	#3
rosierita Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 5,218	Re: carry in a bank? banks are not federal property, so they arent automatically "immune". if they have the "no concealed weapons allowed" sign tho, then of course, you cant carry there. __________________

11-09-2006, 08:04 PM	#4
Nighthawk Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Central Texas Posts: 3,330	Re: carry in a bank? not positive but think here their on same list as schools- no carry __________________ Our obligations to our country never cease but with our lives." --John Adams, letter to Benjamin Rush, April 18, 1808 NRA Life TSRA Life GOA Member

11-09-2006, 08:24 PM	#5
VegasTech702 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 360	Re: carry in a bank? I live here in Las Vegas, NV and I use Nevada State Bank. I actually wrote them via email to ask if open carry was allowed into their banks.They said that they had no problem as long as it was legal. I have carried into their branches many times without incident, openly..

11-09-2006, 08:33 PM	#6
Marlin T Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Mexico Posts: 7,857	Re: carry in a bank? You can in NM unless there is a sign. __________________ "But the simple truth--born of experience--is that tyranny thrives best where government need not fear the wrath of an armed people." Judge Alex Kozinski - United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government. - Thomas Paine Did you read todays GOOD shooting? >>>KEEPANDBEARARMS.COM <<<

11-09-2006, 09:10 PM	#7
berto64 VMBB Admin Staff Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Owyhee County, Idaho Contributor Posts: 7,388	Re: carry in a bank? As far as I know there's no problems in Idyhoe. I carry alla time and I've been in lotsa banks. Didn't see any negative signs. Course if it's concealed well who's to know? __________________ Be who you are & say what you will, Those that matter won't mind and those that mind don't matter. I'm a bitter clinger, One Nation Under God.

11-09-2006, 10:22 PM	#9
Bruce FLinch Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bay Point, Kali..aka Gun Point Posts: 5,016	Re: carry in a bank? [ In New York, D.C., Massachusetts, and California, just considering gun ownership in the privacy of your own thoughts, thinking conservative thoughts, and jingoistically displaying the flag are strictly prohibited! Pat Hurley[/QUOTE] That's too damn close to the truth! __________________ A bad day @ the Range, is better than a good day @ work.

11-09-2006, 10:24 PM	#10
southernshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep South Mississippi Posts: 5,943	Re: carry in a bank? As Marlin said as long as their isn't a sign it is fine in Ms. __________________ Only you can see this

11-10-2006, 05:44 AM	#11
Ursus Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: El Salvador, Central America. Posts: 1,030	Re: carry in a bank? Here you can't carry in a bank, but the bank provides a storing place with an armed guard. They all post signs. __________________ SI VIS PACEM, PARABELLUM.

11-10-2006, 08:35 AM	#12
Pistolenschutze Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 13,094	Re: carry in a bank? Hmmm, this is interesting. Here in Colorado, when I got my CCW, I was told (perhaps incorrectly) that it was illegal to carry the weapon in a bank, not because state law prevented it, but because federal law did, the theory being that most banks are insured by FDIC and thus federal law prevails, as in, for example, the postoffice. I need to check up on this because I often find myself in that situation when I'm running errands and have been leaving my weapon in my vehicle. Marlin, do you know what the federal law on this actually is? I would be most interested. __________________ --Pistolenschutze (Pistol Shooter)

11-10-2006, 09:14 AM	#13
Mithrandir Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Durango Colorado, the right knee-pit of Colorado Posts: 822	Re: carry in a bank? out.. Last edited by Mithrandir; 11-10-2006 at 08:39 PM..

11-10-2006, 09:30 AM	#14
Marlin TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: At SouthernMoss' side forever! Contributor Posts: 13,853	Re: carry in a bank? Pistol, here is an in-depth analysis from Gun Talk at packing.org. I think it should shed some light. The Bottom Line is that unless a particular state specifically prohibits carry in a United States Postal facility, it is NOT illegal to do so for properly licensed individuals. This analysis is written by an attorney who practices in tlhe Big Apple. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Concealed Carry in the Post Office An Analysis by Robert P. Firriolo, Esq. It is no secret that lots of wrong information on firearms laws is propagated by the Internet and by word of mouth. In my experience, one of the most prevalent myths is that it is a federal offense to carry a firearm in a United States Post Office even if you have a permit or license to carry. As a general proposition, this is simply not the case. While state law or carry permit restrictions may prohibit carry in a Post Office, I have yet to locate a federal law that actually criminalizes such conduct where state law and permit regulations allow it. The statute tossed out in support of the proposition that carry in a post office is illegal is 18 U.S.C. § 930. This statute is also cited in posters typically displayed in federal facilities giving notice that carrying firearms in the facility is a crime. The posters do not even mention the exception to the law that applies to those private citizens who lawfully carry handguns. Here are the relevant sections of the law: Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930. - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities a. Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both. d. Subsection (a) shall not apply to - 3. the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes. In order to fall within the exception to the law, two conditions have to be met. First, one has to be engaged in the "lawful carrying of firearms." This means you cannot be a "prohibited person" such as a convicted felon, a fugitive from justice, or fall within any of the other categories that would prohibit one from lawfully purchasing or owning a firearm under federal law. It also means that it must be legal for you to carry the firearm under any applicable federal, state, and local laws. If, for example, it is illegal under state law to carry a firearm in a post office, the exception in section (d) (3) of 18 U.S.C. § 930 offers you no protection. The same is true about any local regulations or restrictions on the terms of your carry permit. In other words, if state or local law, or the terms of your carry permit, prohibit carry in a post office, then such carry is not "lawful," and the exception to the ban on carrying in federal facilities does not apply to you. The second condition that has to be met for one to fall within the exception to the ban on carrying a firearm in a federal facility is that one must be carrying in the facility "incident to hunting or other lawful purposes." One cannot be in the facility with intent to commit a crime, or while committing a crime, and fall within the exception. A simple test of whether one may legally carry in a post office could involve answering four questions: 1. Is it illegal for me to carry a handgun on the street outside the post office? 2. Is there a state or local law prohibiting carry in a post office? 3. Am I violating the terms of my CCW permit by carrying inside a post office? 4. Am I going to commit a crime or engage in some unlawful activity once inside the facility? If one answers "no" to all four questions, it seems that one falls within the exception to the federal ban on carrying in a federal facility. The answer to the first three questions seeks to resolve whether one is engaged in the "lawful carrying" of a firearm. The answer to the final question seeks to resolve whether one is carrying "incident to ... lawful purposes." It is important to note that the term "Federal facility" does not include a federal *court* facility. Even with a valid concealed weapon or handgun license, it is a federal offense to bring a firearm into a federal court facility. Under this statute, the only persons who may lawfully carry in a federal court facility are federal, state, or local law enforcement officers on official duty, or a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if authorized to possess the firearm. Anyone with verifiable information about a CCW permit holder who was prosecuted for violation of 18 U.S.C. § 930 (or any other federal law), and who was also not allegedly committing, or attempting to commit, a crime (other than illegal firearm possession), should contact The Gun Zone or the author and provide details. Addendum The Code of Federal Regulations contains the following regulation (excerpted in pertinent part; full text from link): 39 C.F.R. 232.1 Conduct on Postal Property: (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes. However, looking further down the regulation, we see the following: (p) Penalties and other law. (2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated. Regulations in the CFR have to be based on laws in the United States Code, must be consistent with them, and cannot supercede them. Section (p)(2) of the 39 CFR 232.1 recognizes this fact. That is, the CFR cannot abrogate applicable Federal law. In so far as firearms are concerned, 18 U.S.C. § 930 (a) is essentially the same as 39 CFR 232.1 (l), except that the regulations do not contain the exception for lawful concealed carry contained in 18 U.S.C. § 930 (d) (3). But by its own terms, the regulations do not override the United States Code ("Federal law)", which does allows carrying a firearm in federal facility. In other words, the CFR cannot trump the U.S.C., and the U.S.C. allows lawful concealed carry in a federal facility. __________________ *The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.* *The only criminal class native to the United States is Congress.*

11-10-2006, 10:15 AM	#15
Nighthawk Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Central Texas Posts: 3,330	Re: carry in a bank? just went to packing.org and banks are not on list. may be that instructor thought it fed law __________________ Our obligations to our country never cease but with our lives." --John Adams, letter to Benjamin Rush, April 18, 1808 NRA Life TSRA Life GOA Member

11-10-2006, 02:12 PM	#16
Pistolenschutze Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 13,094	Re: carry in a bank? Marlin, thanks for posting that. I printed it out for future reference. I need to recheck the actual Colorado regs to see if there is a specific provision against carrying in banks and post offices. If there is, as the lawyers say, the issue becomes moot; if not, I probably wouldn't chance it anyway, but it's still nice to know what the law actually is. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse," or so goes the legal maxim. __________________ --Pistolenschutze (Pistol Shooter)

11-29-2006, 09:13 PM	#17
BigSam77 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 36	Re: carry in a bank? Hey all. I just wanted to give an update. one of my local banks has an armed guard outside at all times and I asked him about the situation. He said it is certainly not a federal rule and not a virginia rule. You can carry unless a specific company or branch office post a sign on the door. IT would be right up there with the no smoking and shirt/ shoes deal.