Question on Operation of Winchester 1885 Low Wall

[Mainspring]

Just restored a Winchester 1885 .22 cal Short Low Wall for a friend. Could hardly believe how much bluing was still left on this piece after I carefully removed the rust. My question is, after reassembling the rifle I operated the action and noticed the hammer went the first position (safety). Before I disassembled the piece I kind of thought when working the action the hammer went to the second (ready to fire) position. For safety sake the way it operates now makes more sense. Can someone please inform me when you operate the action should the hammer go to the first (safety) or second (ready to fire) position. Thanks for any comments.

[stash247]

It depends on how the rifle was originally built.
Open the action, and look in the bottom; at the curve of the hammer, there is a slot in the middle, for a hammer fly.
Some muskets (Cal .22 short, your offering) had a fly that let the hammer down to 'half cock', on closing; most, the hammer remained fully cocked.
This feature could be ordered in any Winchester Single Shot, but, seldom was.
I totally agree that the 'safety notch fly' was how it should have been, but, Olin Winchester did not share the view; most close at full cock.
Hope this helps...

[Mainspring]

Originally Posted by stash247

It depends on how the rifle was originally built.
Open the action, and look in the bottom; at the curve of the hammer, there is a slot in the middle, for a hammer fly.
Some muskets (Cal .22 short, your offering) had a fly that let the hammer down to 'half cock', on closing; most, the hammer remained fully cocked.
This feature could be ordered in any Winchester Single Shot, but, seldom was.
I totally agree that the 'safety notch fly' was how it should have been, but, Olin Winchester did not share the view; most close at full cock.
Hope this helps...

Thanks stash247 you're absolutely right, the hammer has a safety notch fly in the middle of it. When I dissembled the piece it was frozen into the hammer. It now works freely. Could it be that is why it now catches half way instead of full cock? Looks like the sear catches it. This piece was not shown on the schematic I downloaded.

[stash247]

[QUOTE=Mainspring;230712]Thanks stash247 you're absolutely right, the hammer has a safety notch fly in the middle of it.
In fact, not totally right, as the early SS rifles, flat spring, high and low walls, had no fly, or cut for it, unless ordered with a 'set' trigger; then, it's function was to keepthe sear nose from lodging in the safety notch, of the hammer, on firing. Somewhat later 'flat spring' rifles had a slotted hammer, with no fly, unless ordered with, or retro-ftted at the factory with, a set trigger.
After the time of the adoption of the coil mainspring, all the rifles should have slotted hammers, fitted with the fly I described, if a 'set trigger' rifle, no fly, or the fly you have, in the case of muskets, (Some) and special order rifles, with the feature requested.
I personally like the 'half cock' fly, as a safety feature, for shooters, young and old; the original system required one to manually lower the hammer, with the thumb, while pulling the trigger, to achieve the 'half cock' state
Be aware, the serial number on the single shots was on the (Removable) lower tang; the High Wall tang will fit any High wall rifle, as well as the "Low Wall" muskets, as they are a High wall Rifle in all respects except the lower sidewall, and breechblock: the true Low Wall rifle had a smaller diameter barrel root, and a different tang.
Accordingly, one must 'Date' many 'less than original' Winchester single shots by their features, not their serial number, which is, was, and can be, subject to change, at the whim of the current owner.
And then, there is the "Void". The period of several years, where records are totally missing, about the features on a rifle of a given serial number; these are the scariest rifles of all, to authenticate, and/or value.
I know of one such rifle, a .22 Long rifle Low Wall, Schuetzen Rifle, #3 barrel, shuetzen double set triggers, that was "built to order", several years ago, for a friend, as the rifle he wanted to shoot in matches; he wanted an 'original looking' rifle, paid a lot of money to have it built, and loved it!
I handled, and shot the rifle, at a big match in Ohio, the year it was completed; a wonderful rifle! Just, in spite of the perfect roll marking, at 10 o'clock, just where it should be, on a rifle built by Winchester, without barrel sights, for scope use, it was not built by Winchester!!!
No problem so far, as the Serial number was from the 'Void'. The Tang, and trigger, came from New Jersey, the barrel, from Texas, and the rifle shot extemely well, at the match!
Then the guy dies, his widow sells the rifle to a friend, bla. bla. bla.
Seven years later, on his way back from the big gun show in Vegas, another friend stops by to show me his incredible find, for which he paid a huge amount.
The Maadis Winchester Book tells me less than a dozen Low Wall Shuetzen Rifes can be documented: I do not remember the number, but well less than a dozen.
The rifle he just bought, and this man is a very knowledgeable collector, was the same rifle I previously described.
It was a $3K 'spoof', when built, with no intent in any way, shape or form, to deceive or defraud, anyone. This was around 1982.
In 1998, it was a mid 5 figure 'Original, about unfired, rarity', sold to a man who should have known better, but to whom the rarity, and (?) too low price, was too much to resist!
He. to this day, owns the finest Winchester rifle ever produced in the midwest!
I offer the anecdote to point out that NOTHING about the Winchester Single Shot Rifle is 'always', 'never', or 'certain'.
They are still among the finest factory rifles ever built, IMHO.

[Mainspring]

stash247. Thanks for that info and the interesting story about the Schuetzen Rifle, #3. I finished the rifle and it’s back in the owner's hands. I remember when I had the rifle apart it had a coil mainspring , no set trigger and the lower tang was removable. Interesting to note as you stated how that lower tang with the SN would fit both high and low walls. Makes you wonder how many original ones are out there and how you would know if they had all original parts. I should have taken notice to other parts of the rifle that had numbers stamped on them. Do you know if they should match any of the tang SN? I would guess not back then. That's what I always liked about the German Luger when I collected them. 90% of the parts had numbers down to the firing pin that match the last 3 numbers of the SN. There was also a number “1” stamped on the bottom of the octogan barrel of the Low Wall that was visible at the end for the forearm. I also found an interesting slide button at the end of the lower receiver that I originally thought was a takedown button to remove the forearm. It slid back towards the receiver but not far enough to clear the forearm. Since a screw held the forearm in place I couldn’t understand what it’s purpose was.

[stash247]

Mainspring, the High Wall lower tang will NOT fit a Low Wall rifle or carbine; it is larger! It WILL fit all three variations of the .22LR Musket, because they are in dimension, High Walls, with the sides and the Breechblock modified as a Low Wall, for loading ease.
To differentiate between the two, measure the barrel shank diameter; the High wall is .935" OD, the low wall, .825" OD. All the Muskets measure .935"!

The number '1' that you spoke of is the barrel weight, and 1 was standard for Low Walls, though I have seen 2-3-4 on the little frame, by customer's special order.
The little button you found interests me greatly! A Takedown system only appeared on these rifles after, IIRC, about S/N 2,02x.xxx, when they began to be built as coil spring actions. Did this rifle have a plate, about .400" thick, forward of the recever, and shaped to match???
If so, you had a takedown Low Wall, and your friend has a really interesting piece; The Takedown repeaters, like the '94, use a similar system, locked from rotating by the Magazine tube, which has a lever to release it, and allow it to be drawn forward, to then allow the barrel, with the action open, to be unscrewed 90*, then withdrawn. The Single Shot used a slide catch, sprung from behind, for the same purpose, as it has no magazine tube.
Maybe you had a Frankengun, without the plate, a fixed barrel model, built on a takedown frame, but that lacks any logic, as the takedown is worth twice what the solid frame rifle would bring!
I'm interested, others as well, I'm sure, so tell us!
All the best, Terry

[Mainspring]

Terry, Thanks for putting me straight concerning the tang on the High Wall vs. the Low Wall. For as old as I am I still got a lot to learn. That’s why I like this forum. Concerning the button, yes it did have a plate ,about .400 thick, forward of the receiver, and shaped to match. The plate had a dove tail like shape, next to the receiver, on both sides so that it would fit or lock firm against the receiver. This plate also had a round pin about .250 in the center of it that looked like it went through the plate and attached to the receiver. Almost made it look like the plate would rotate except it couldn’t because of the barrel going through the plate and receiver. AND, there was another smaller pin in the upper left or right corner of the plate that looked like it was attached to the receiver. SO, there was no way it could rotate without removing the small pin and barrel. And the small pin was only visible on plate side and flush with the plate. SO, no way to punch out the pin. It confused the heck out of me as how to separate the plate, receiver and barrel so I thought I best let it alone. All the schematics I have seen searching through the internet did not show a plate. It was the only piece on the rifle I did not take apart. By the way, the button did not push in and out, it slid back and forth. When I removed the button, it looked like it served absolutely no purpose. It was slotted into the bottom of the plate and had two small round shallow holes underneath it. There was a hole in the plate underneath the button with a small round head pin with a spring. This allowed the button to slide back and forth at two positions. It did not look like it had anything to do with separating the plate from the receiver. Ken