A serious question

[Pistolenschutze]

Like myself, many of you have, from time to time, been involved in teaching a new adult shooter the funadmentals of firearms safety, handling, and use. Often, this training is preliminary to that individual's purchase of a firearm for self-defense purposes. One question that always comes up, sooner or later is, "when am I justified in shooting another human being?" I don't know about you folks, but this is always a question I dread to some extent because it has no simple answer. I think it is a question that must concern any rational person because, deep in your heart, you know that the advice you give may someday make the difference between living and dying for your trainee or someone else. I would be very interested in how some of you respond when this question arises. I also know that, to some extent, your response must be tempered by the state and local laws where you happen to live, but still, it is a question that cannot truly be avoided when you take on the responsibility of training another person to use of a deadly weapon. I would honestly be interested in how you feel about it.

[southernshooter]

If someeone ask's me I will tell them how I feel
I won't pull a gun to stop a hand to hand cofrontation, I won't pull it just to pull it. The only time a pull my gun is for a shot meaning they aren't gonna breathe no more. Pistol say me and you get into an argurement we exchange threats and you punch me with your fist I am NOT gonna pull my gun now say this same arguement but you pull a knife and come towards me I will shoot till the threat is dead. When I am in fear for my life or my family's life then I draw my gun. When I know that their is NO way out of this situation I am going to draw.
To give ya an idea I caught a teenager breaking in to my car one night I went out to catch him when I got about 5 feet away I kicked my car scaring the sh*t out of him he stood their for a second like a deer in headlights and then I guess he grew some ba!!s he took a swing at me and So I moved out of the way a hit him in the neck with a 4 d maglite. He went to his knees I took about 3 steps back and said if you want to go, go I will not call the cops but if you want to stay it will be a big mistake and he left. I had my gun on my hip covered with a shirt but I did Not draw, he did NOT pose that much of a threat to me he never even knew I had it
And I will NEVER shoot to wound I will draw and shoot to kill only
Shoot em till they stop, I am not saying shoot them a lot or shoot them real fast I am just saying shoot em till they stop.
Just my .02 and I am not paying anyones lawyer feels

[Pistolenschutze]

Southern, the philosophy and general attitude you detailed above pretty much parallels my own. I've always believed that deadly force should be the last resort, never the first. When I've taught an adult how to shoot and the question has come up, as it always does, two points I always emphatically make are: First, don't have a self-defense weapon, and certainly never carry one, unless you believe deep down in your soul that you would use it if you had to; and second, never draw a weapon unless you are fully prepared to use it and truly believe it very likely you will have to use it in the situation. A gun is neither a toy nor something to make you ten feet tall. The guy or gal who says, "I only carry it to scare people with" is a fool and the last person who should be packing heat.

[Deputy Dawg]

Originally Posted by southernshooter

If someeone ask's me I will tell them how I feel
I won't pull a gun to stop a hand to hand cofrontation, I won't pull it just to pull it. The only time a pull my gun is for a shot meaning they aren't gonna breathe no more. Pistol say me and you get into an argurement we exchange threats and you punch me with your fist I am NOT gonna pull my gun now say this same arguement but you pull a knife and come towards me I will shoot till the threat is dead. When I am in fear for my life or my family's life then I draw my gun. When I know that their is NO way out of this situation I am going to draw.
To give ya an idea I caught a teenager breaking in to my car one night I went out to catch him when I got about 5 feet away I kicked my car scaring the sh*t out of him he stood their for a second like a deer in headlights and then I guess he grew some ba!!s he took a swing at me and So I moved out of the way a hit him in the neck with a 4 d maglite. He went to his knees I took about 3 steps back and said if you want to go, go I will not call the cops but if you want to stay it will be a big mistake and he left. I had my gun on my hip covered with a shirt but I did Not draw, he did NOT pose that much of a threat to me he never even knew I had it
And I will NEVER shoot to wound I will draw and shoot to kill only
Shoot em till they stop, I am not saying shoot them a lot or shoot them real fast I am just saying shoot em till they stop.
Just my .02 and I am not paying anyones lawyer feels

Very well spoken, and I agree with you 100%

[pickenup]

A fight was imminent between one of by brothers and I. I removed my belt (held knife) and emptied my pockets (gun). Went to the confrontation, we got it on. Some may say that it was because it was my brother, but I assure you, that if he came at me in a “life threatening” manner, I would shoot him just as dead as any stranger.

If I was witness to a robbery, where no one was in danger of loosing their life, I would collect all the details that I could, but would let it continue. Given the same situation, where a life WAS in danger, well…that’s why I carry.

The law here reads that if a life is in danger, doesn’t have to be yours, you are justified in using deadly force.

The question comes up. Would you use a firearm to stop a rape?

P.S.
HE went to the hospital, I didn’t.

[Marlin]

I agree with Pistol and Southern.

WRT rape, I would treat it the SAME AS being life threatening. I, for one, believe that the bleeding hearts were DEAD WRONG when that offense was removed from being a capital offense. To me, it is still and always be a capital offense.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by Marlin

WRT rape, I would treat it the SAME AS being life threatening. I, for one, believe that the bleeding hearts were DEAD WRONG when that offense was removed from being a capital offense. To me, it is still and always be a capital offense.

Marlin, we are certainly in complete and total agreement on that issue. I've said for years that forcible rape should be classified as a capital offense, the same as first degree murder with special circumstances. And yes, I would draw my weapon to prevent one, and I think it highly likely there would be only one side to tell when all was said and done.

[southernshooter]

Pickenup If I were to stumble upon a rape I think before I would shoot to kill, I would pistol whip him a few times. And I will swear upon that. Then would come the deadly force scenario because most of the time a rape involves a weapon so then I'll shoot if need be it.
Keep in mind a rapist is a murderer anyway because it will destroy the victims life
Just my .02

[LurpyGeek]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

"when am I justified in shooting another human being?"

I agree with everything that has been said in this thread. There is one thing I would add in regards to discussing this with someone who is new to firearms. You have to answer the above question BEFORE you are ever in the situation. You have to make the decision, but you only have to make it once and then live by it. You cannot wait until you are threatened to make the choice.

I would never want to be in a position where I would be faced with taking the life of another individual, but if I, my family, or other good people around me were in danger I would not hesitate to do everything necessary to neutralize the threat.

[durk]

Here in Oklahoma we are only aloud to protect family, boss or employee.If we see someone getting the s**t beat out of them in a parking lot we are to call the police. It does make sense to me for that we do not know the situation. The person getting beat-up might have just been caught breaking into a car. I would hate to see an el edged rape taking place then wind up shooting the guy to find out that the victim was his wife, only to tell the cops nothing was going on and that I had just shot her husband for no reason. I really don't know what I would teach someone on this subject. I hope I never have to find out what I would do. just have to be in the situation first and take it from there. I once read a story where a women with a CCW and license was in a parking lot when 3 boys started walking toward her, suspected trouble and flashed her gun. The boys high-tailed it out of there with no incident. I don't know, good question!

[ironsight65]

Originally Posted by durk

Here in Oklahoma we are only aloud to protect family, boss or employee.

Durk, that is not the way I understand it. When I took my CCW class, a
good portion of time was spent on listening to a lawyer who specialized
in self defense cases. We were told you can act in the defense of another
person, but you need to be damn sure of the situation, as you mentioned,
and it would have to be a life threatening situation. In fact, there was
a story recently where I believe a CCW holder here, stopped a armed
robbery by shooting the criminal when he refused to drop his weapon.
I did not hear anything about charges be filed against him, but I am not
positive there were none. Do you know?
Granted it has been a long time since I took the class and I probably need
to go thru and read any current revisions to Oklahoma CCW laws. I try to
do so every year or so.

I have never had to draw my gun, but I would not hesitate if I felt my life
or one of my family members lives was in danger. It just comes down to
assessing the threat in my opinion, which I'm sure will not be as easy as
you like to think it will.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by LurpyGeek

There is one thing I would add in regards to discussing this with someone who is new to firearms. You have to answer the above question BEFORE you are ever in the situation.

A very good point, Lurpy, and I agree. I don't think anyone ever knows with absolute certainty what he or she will do in such a situation until it actually happens. There is always going to be some amount of "X" factor. The best one can do, I think, is to think carefully--and soul searchingly--about the issue before deciding to carry a weapon. Only if one is totally honest with himself (or herself, for that matter) can that basic decision be made, but made it must be. If a person is not as certain as it is humanly possible to be that, "yes, I would shoot if I had to," than that person is better off not carrying a weapon.

[durk]

Originally Posted by ironsight65

Durk, that is not the way I understand it. When I took my CCW class, a
good portion of time was spent on listening to a lawyer who specialized
in self defense cases. We were told you can act in the defense of another
person, but you need to be damn sure of the situation, as you mentioned,
and it would have to be a life threatening situation. In fact, there was
a story recently where I believe a CCW holder here, stopped a armed
robbery by shooting the criminal when he refused to drop his weapon.
I did not hear anything about charges be filed against him, but I am not
positive there were none. Do you know?

I think I posted that story that you speak of.(Oklahoma man 1 Kansas robber 0) It was an Oklahoma man in Kansas and I have not herd any updates as to any charges filed. That is one thing about being able to carry in other states. I don't think their laws are the same as Oklahoma's laws as to whom you can protect. (I could be wrong) (I guess I will have to read their laws before traveling to those states. As to my CC class, I took it in July of 06. Was given a (use of deadly force summary) (#2) reads, never
point or shoot your gun at a person unless The life of your mother or father,husband or wife,child,employee or employer is threatened at that moment. I would suspect if we were in a convenient store and someone came in waving a gun around wanting money from the clerk, we could shoot and be OK. I would feel my life to be threatened if that were the case. Like I said, I pray that it never comes to that but I think and hope I would be ready if it did.

[JohnK3]

I would feel my life threatened if I was witnessing an armed robbery of another person.

It's pretty simple. Once he's done with his current victim, what's to stop him from turning the gun on me to eliminate witnesses? Simply having a gun out and committing a crime in my presence constitutes an immediate threat to my safety. While it's a cliche', seconds count in a situation like that.

[catfish83861]

marlin and southern, I can't disagree with most anything you say on this matter. I would caution on word usage. I know I am going to sound like a lawyer but we were instructed to "shoot to stop" not shoot to kill. When I asked out instructor about his statement. "Place two rounds center mass."
That sounds like shooting to kill to me. His reply, but you shot to terminate the attack not to kill. On the rape thing I believe that only if the perp had a weapon visible would I shoot him. I also believe any person who believes rape isn't a capitol offense is obviously delusional or just plain stupid or confused. I have personally worked with several rape victims. Some of them as much as several years later. It doesn't go away. The person who believes that brandishing a weapon to scare a perpetrator away is a good idea, scares me! I do not pick up a hammer unless I need to hit something. If I have to pull my pistol out, it will bark at least twice. Just one other guys thoughts.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by catfish83861

marlin and southern, I can't disagree with most anything you say on this matter. I would caution on word usage. I know I am going to sound like a lawyer but we were instructed to "shoot to stop" not shoot to kill. When I asked out instructor about his statement. "Place two rounds center mass."

Well said, Cat. Two .45 caliber hits to the center-of-mass is, as you well know--very likely to kill as well as simply to stop. But you are absolutely right, your intent (officially at least) is to stop. That's my story and I'm sticking to it, your honor! One point to add, perhaps, is the advice one of my police friends often gives to those he trains (especially to women) for CCW: "Keep on shooting until the SOB is on the ground!" Sound advice, I think.

[JohnK3]

I like Massad Ayoob's advice:

When asked if you shot to kill, reply "I shot to live." Anything else is superfluous. It establishes in those who would judge you that your intent was not to kill, but to preserve your own life. "Shoot to stop" enables a prosecuting attorney the leverage to say "Then why didn't you shoot him in the leg, or the hand?" and you have to go through all the BS of defending WHY neither target is appropriate.

[catfish83861]

pistol, if he is still moving he could still be a threat. Our instructor was an FBI firearms specialist and like I said "You shoot to stop the perceived threat."
While effecting the arrest of one individual late one evening he stated to me. Hey I know you.You got a wife and kids. You would risk them just to arrest me. My statement to him was a simple statement! Make sure you do it while I am there, I may hesitate,she will not, and no jury or shooting review board will ever convict her of anything. At the time I working with Naval Station Security,was also a reserve deputy sheriff (community service,the military liked that ). I completed 330 hours classroom training which qualified for 18 college credits.Washington state approved and sanctioned.

[rosierita]

if i was out & about, i would only pull my weapon if i felt my life was being threatened. our CCW instructor told us to shoot to kill, in fact, he went so far as to say to me "your guns holds 6, give him 6! MAKE SURE there is only 1 side of the story to tell, bc you WILL get SUED!"

if i am at home & a stranger is banging on my door, i'm going to the door w/ a loaded shotgun & if troy's here, there will also be a pistol or 2 accompanying the shotgun. i NEVER answer the door to a stranger w/o a firearm & i've never figured out how to conceal a 12 gauge.... (we have ALOT of meth heads around here )

as far as a rapist goes, i'd shoot him!

as far as what i tell someone that is new to firearms, that depends on how much time i've spent at the range w/ them. so far, i've only been enough w/ the few i've taken to go over basic firearms safety & making sure they can shoot w/ accuracy. i go over the "what ifs" to some degree, but that's mainly to say that the more often you shoot, the more comfortable you are in any given situation where you'd need your gun. i also get them to the point of shooting DAO before we ever leave the range. the few that i've taken to the range ask me WHY i only let them shoot DAO after the 1st few rounds & that is bc they will do what they practice, when faced w/ an emergency.

[southernshooter]

Originally Posted by Catfish

marlin and southern, I can't disagree with most anything you say on this matter. I would caution on word usage. I know I am going to sound like a lawyer but we were instructed to "shoot to stop" not shoot to kill. When I asked out instructor about his statement. "Place two rounds center mass."

A lot of what you said makes sense but I always train to follow up with a head shot, the old dozer technique 2 to the gut and 1 to the head. Just because their are too dang many gang bangers and hoodlums that have bullet proof vests.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by southernshooter

A lot of what you said makes sense but I always train to follow up with a head shot, the old dozer technique 2 to the gut and 1 to the head. Just because their are too dang many gang bangers and hoodlums that have bullet proof vests.

In some areas, BP vests on scumbags has gotten to be quite a problem for police, Southern, so I agree with your point to a large extent. One thing about a shot to the old melon, the sucker is not likely to get up again this side of hell! In a case of a clear use of, or intent to use, deadly force, the head shot is certainly the most effective and would usually be considered justified, but it is hard to convince a DA your intent was merely to stop the assault when parts of the perp's skull are half way across the parking lot. "But your honor, I thought a 230 grain Hydra Shok to the ocular-cranial cavity would only knock him down!" Another factor to consider, I think, is that a head shot is much harder to make. Like you said, if you go that route, first two to the center of mass then a follow-up to the head if needed.

[rosierita]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

In some areas, BP vests on scumbags has gotten to be quite a problem for police, Southern, so I agree with your point to a large extent. One thing about a shot to the old melon, the sucker is not likely to get up again this side of hell! In a case of a clear use of, or intent to use, deadly force, the head shot is certainly the most effective and would usually be considered justified, but it is hard to convince a DA your intent was merely to stop the assault when parts of the perp's skull are half way across the parking lot. "But your honor, I thought a 230 grain Hydra Shok to the ocular-cranial cavity would only knock him down!" Another factor to consider, I think, is that a head shot is much harder to make. Like you said, if you go that route, first two to the center of mass then a follow-up to the head if needed.

i would just play it up as a mistake...

[ironsight65]

Originally Posted by durk

I would suspect if we were in a convenient store and someone came in waving a gun around wanting money from the clerk, we could shoot and be OK. I would feel my life to be threatened if that were the case. Like I said, I pray that it never comes to that but I think and hope I would be ready if it did.

Thanks Durk. I have to agree. If someone comes in waiving a gun and
demanding money at a store I'm in, I don't think I would stop to ask,
"excuse me, will you simply be robbing this store or do you plan to shoot
anyone". I think your life is in danger just by being present.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by ironsight65

If someone comes in waiving a gun and
demanding money at a store I'm in, I don't think I would stop to ask,
"excuse me, will you simply be robbing this store or do you plan to shoot
anyone". I think your life is in danger just by being present.

In the majority of jurisdictions (excepting New York, Massachusetts, and California, to be sure!) the courts would likely agree, Iron, especially if there is only one side of the story left to tell!

[Ursus]

Originally Posted by JohnK3

"Shoot to stop" enables a prosecuting attorney the leverage to say "Then why didn't you shoot him in the leg, or the hand?" and you have to go through all the BS of defending WHY neither target is appropriate.

Well, you could always say: "I tried to hit the leg, not the head. But the creep moved. So it's his fault"