Modifying C&R transferred firearms

[Buckaroo Banzai]

Hi All,

Fairly new to the C&R community and came up with a question that I thought was a no brainer, until I started checking around -- Now I'm confused --

I recently purchased 2 (unissued) Yugo SKS's 1 to keep stock and 1 to modify. While searching for a muzzle brake, I came across several websites that talk about the legality of modding the SKS. Since it would seem from what I have read, that changing a C&R firearm in pretty much anyway negates its status as a C&R firearm, I am now wondering what I can "legally" do to guns I bought with my CR license????

The SKS's are an extreme case for modification, in that you have 922r to deal with once you change the firearm and its not CR compliant anymore, but what about a mauser or mosin? If I wanted to put a new bolt, stock, even barrel on my 98 or 91/30 can I legally do that to rifles I purchased with my C&R? Will ATF have a fit if they inspect me and my 91/30 is in a synth stock, with a cut down barrel, and scope mounted? I realize that once I modify a firearm and it isn't CR compliant anymore I couldn't transfer it as a CR weapon, but how does modding it affect my inventory in the eyes of the ATF?




thanks in advance!!!!

[Mosin_Nagant_Fan]

Well, I don't know anything about C&R, but to legally have a modified SKS, you need to have 6 major parts made in the U.S. which includes the trigger group (which usually counts for 3 parts) stock (main part and upper handguard only counts as 1) barrel and gas tube (I think) is all I can think of.

There may be others, but those are the ones off the top of my head.

[Buckaroo Banzai]

yep on the sks there are about 16-17 ATF listed compliance parts, (depending on which reference you are using) as long as only 10 of them are import parts, your golden.

as far as my modification of CR firearms question, I found an answer elsewhere on the Internet and my local ATF office confirmed.

It really was a no-brainer,,

In case anyone else out there doesn't already know:

Basically if you modify a C&R purchased firearm and its no longer C&R compliant you have to transfer it off your Bound Book. Basically the ATF said to transfer it off to your personal collection and comment that it was being customized. Once its off your bound book you can treat it like any non-C&R firearm you own. As long as your modifications are legal (NFA, 922r) you should be good to go.

[berto64]

Hey Buckaroo! Welcome to TFF.

I'm a big fan. My kids got sick & tired watching 'Adventures Across the Eighth Dimension' I played it so much.

Give my best to the 'Hong Kong Cavaliers.

All of my SKS's are preban so all the verboten stuff is already there.

[e3mrk]

There is very little you can do to modify a C+R Firearm that dosnt remove it'e C+R status.
The BATF rules are that the Weapon must remain in it's original configuration/condition to remain C+R.
If your Rifle has a Bayonet Lug and you remove it the Rifle is no longer C+R.
Now in some cases if you add a part that can be removed and causes no permanent alteration it may be legal.But if you sell it you must return it to full C+R condition before you sell it or you must go through a Full FFL Dealer like any modern Firearm sale.

[polishshooter]

Not to be anything but a 'Devil's Advocate," but how do you account for the Mosin Nagant M91/30 "Barreled Actions" with "carbine length barrels" that are sold as "C&R?" Or all the "K98 Mauser Barreled actions?" Or the "Part's Guns" C&Rs of which I have bought MANY.

It would seem to me that the ACTION is what is C&R, not what will become of that action after I "restore" it to whatever configuration I will end up with.

Plus the sheer NUMBERS of C&R M44s and M91/30s that have been converted with bent bolts, scopes, synthetic stocks, etc, much less Romanian or Yugo SKS's with all the Tapco crap, by MOST of us Crufflers should mean SOMEBODY should have gotten into trouble by now....

[e3mrk]

Actually the rule is that to remain C+R the Weapon must stay in the Original configuration in it was made.
They may be stretching the rules when selling a action or Barreled Receiver as C+R but if they are restored then the finished Weapon would be C+R.
If You were to customize a C+R Weapon like a Rifle by installing a fiberglass Stock or other major change then it most likely would not be C+R.
Another example would be the customization of the SKS, Once You put a ATI stock on them they are no longer C+R. Also You have to play the ten or less game with them.

[22WRF]

Weapon must stay in the Original configuration

There is nothing written in 27 CFR that says that!

I wish folks wouldn't try making up their own rules

[Tom Militano]

I've got a C&R license and I stay so confused about what you can and can't do I'm about ready to chuck the thing in the trash. You can buy aftermarket scope mounts that require no modifications, but that's not an original configuration. Does that negate the C&R status? Does changing to a 9mm barrel on a CZ52 change it's status? I've seen sportorized versions of rifles listed as C&R.

[TRAP55]

I got a question.
Pre 1898 rifles are classified as antiques.
Example: M39 Finn Mosin has a Hex receiver dated 1896, but was re-stocked and re-barreled from it's original 1891 model configuration in 1968 as a "sneak" rifle.
It's not in it's original configuration, has a 1968 stamp on the barrel, and a 1896 stamp on the receiver.
Does the 1968 stamp exclude it from being Antique?
Does the same stamp exclude it from being C&R?

[Tom Militano]

Welcome to the confused club.

[22WRF]

Trap

Here is a 1893 Turk Rifles updated in the 1930s.
Sportsmansguide.
Since this gun was made for the Ottoman Empire prior to 1898, no Federal Firearm License is required. We can ship it right to your doorstep,


http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=235111

[TRAP55]

Just curious to see what kinda answers I got. Pre 1898 receivers remain Antiques no matter what is done to them.
I hear the argument both ways on modifying a C&R gun and it remaining C&R, but I still haven't seen where the Law says that?

[Tom Militano]

Me either Trap55. I'm not trying to be a pain in the neck, but there are several other sites where I've seen similar questions asked and the answers go in both diesctions, it's OK, it's not OK to modify them.

[TRAP55]

Tom, the bad part is, it always seems to come down to the particular ATF agent and his interpretation.
Kinda makes ya a little angry when you read the words "shall not be infringed".

[Tom Militano]

I think the different type of licenses are kind of dumb anyway. Does a 50 year old gun make it less of a gun than a new one? You can still hunt with it, you can still shoot it. As long as it's not fully automatic or suppressed what's the difference? SOG has 91/30's that are C&R OK, that are listed as sporters, in synthethic stocks.

[e3mrk]

I think that until the BATF actually goes after someone that sells a modified C+R Weapon we will never know for sure.
I Have been told by Dealers and others that You cannot change a C+R Weapon or it loses it's C+R rating.

[Tom Militano]

That's the point I'm trying to make, nobody seems to have a definite answer. I have a couple of more that I want to buy, I have no intention of altering them, and then I think I'm done fooling with them. I'm still curious about changing the CZ 52 to a 9mm, is it really legal? I'm going to order one and leave it original, but damn, it's confusing.

[e3mrk]

I am copying this from the Federal firearms Regulations Reference Guide.
General Information Page # 160.
What are curio's and relic's?
The ATF Recognizes (Only Complete Assembled firearms) As Curio And Relics.
The ATF's classification Of Surplus Military Firearms As Curio's And Relic's Has Extended Onlt To Those Firearms In Their (Original Military Configuration).
This means that Military Firearms Must Stay In Their Original Military Configuration To Stay C+R. But Leads One To Believe That Civilian Firearms Can Be Modified A Bit And Remain C+R.
Either Way A Weapon That Is No Longer C+R Must Be removed From The Bound Book.

[e3mrk]

One More Thing.
I Believe You Can Legally Change A C+R Weapon As Long As It Is Not permanent. Like A No Drill Scope Mount.

[Tom Militano]

e3mrk. I appreciate the replies and the help, but if you remove a weapon from your bound book can you sell it if it's been modified? You said "I believe" and "Leads one to believe" in your reply. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, so please don't take it that way, but not being able to really interpet what we're allowed to do can lead to problems. A CZ52 in 9mm is not in it's original configuration, neither is the sportorized 91/30. Thanks for the replies.

[e3mrk]

The CZ-52 is considered a curio & relic by the BATF and is on the BATF's C&R list for collectors with C&R Federal Firearms License. Note that only the original caliber of 7.62x25 and not the 9mm conversions are considered C&R. Converting your 7.62x25 to 9mm is a gray area as far as its C&R status. However, there's nothing illegal about the conversion. If You Have The Original Barrel You Can Reinstall It For A Sale And Just Put The 9mm In The Box With The Pistol.
I have Heard That The 9mm Conversion Was Also Done At The Factory And That Should Change Things Legally.
Your Best Bet Would Write The ATF And Explain This To Them And See What They Say.

[TRAP55]

One small flaw there, read the last three words, and read the definitions.


WHAT ARE CURIOS OR RELICS?

As set out in the regulations (27 CFR 178.11), curios or relics include firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.



Importation Restrictions

Licensed collectors may lawfully import curio or relic firearms other than surplus military firearms, nonsporting firearms, and NFA weapons. [A surplus military firearm is defined as one that belonged to a regular or irregular military force at any time. Alteration of the firearm does not change its status. Therefore, a sporting firearm with a surplus military frame or receiver is a surplus military firearm, because a frame or receiver is classified as a firearm as described in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3).] Surplus military firearms are generally prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. § 925(d)(3). However, 18 U.S.C. § 925(e) authorizes licensed importers (FFL type 08 or 11) to import surplus military rifles, shotguns, and handguns classified as curios or relics; provided that such handguns are generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes. Nonsporting handguns are those pistols and revolvers that do not meet size and safety prerequisites, or which do not accrue a qualifying score on ATF Form 4590, "Factoring Criteria for Weapons." Surplus military firearms classified as curios or relics must be in their original military configuration to qualify for importation.

[polishshooter]

Originally Posted by Tom Militano

I think the different type of licenses are kind of dumb anyway. Does a 50 year old gun make it less of a gun than a new one? You can still hunt with it, you can still shoot it. As long as it's not fully automatic or suppressed what's the difference? SOG has 91/30's that are C&R OK, that are listed as sporters, in synthethic stocks.

Yeah, Tom, they have had them for a while, as have several other Dealers.

And Centerfire Sytems, the ones whi make the ATI stuff, used to (I don't get their catalogues any more, so I don know if they still do...) offer SKS in the synthetic stocks as CR as well...

I guess i'm going to have to go back and reread my regs, but I feel uncomfortable about the "transfering them off the books into your private collection and then they are not regulated..."

What's the reason for even KEEPING a bound book then? Putting that notation on ANY CR firearm you own and then selling them at a gun show or flea market to any Tom Dick or Harry with no records, could not be checked, and I just see THAT as a way to get into a LOT of trouble....

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by polishshooter

What's the reason for even KEEPING a bound book then? Putting that notation on ANY CR firearm you own and then selling them at a gun show or flea market to any Tom Dick or Harry with no records, could not be checked, and I just see THAT as a way to get into a LOT of trouble....

Yup, like spending a few winters in Marion, Illinois.