.38 or .380

[stash247]

User, I will tell you I have killed a lot of hogs, with a .22 lr, and most weighed far more than a man; it's not what you hit them with, so much as where!
I would totally agree on the .38 Spl as a 'floor' caliber, for self defense, but we ought to be talking seven foot range.
All of that said, I still carry a Walther TPH, in .22 LR, in my jacket, and do NOT feel under gunned, just know I my fire a couple more shots.

[Righteous]

they ever find out you shot them with a .22 they gonna be pissed off

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by Righteous

they ever find out you shot them with a .22 they gonna be pissed off

If there's a reason to shoot, then it's reason enough to make sure they never find out anything else ever again, excepting of course finding out which direction God sends them at judgement.

[stash247]

Originally Posted by user

I regard the .38 spc.+P as the minimum acceptable self defense round.

The Federal Premium Hydrashok JHP (PD380HS1H) has 167 foot pounds of kinetic energy at fifty feet, about sixty ft-lbs less than is necessary by my lights, and a trajectory drop of about three inches at that distance.

By contrast, the 9x19mm Luger I use (P9HS1) has 291 foot pounds and a two inch drop, respectively, and the Federal Premium Hydrashok .38 special +P (P38HS1) has 234 ft-lbs
So, to me, the .38 special +P is the minimum acceptable. You can use a .380 or a .22Lr for that matter, but you have to be at close range, be an accurate shooter, and have a good working knowledge of human anatomy, in my opinion. The Beretta Bobcat, for example, is a terrific gun at eight to ten feet.

'Scuse my stupid, but fifty feet seems a long ways away to claim 'self defense', in any but a battlefield, in which case, 'concealed' except for 'spooks', as we used to call some of the company guys, and their budget is about limitless; I've seen more than one with a 'mini uzi', or an Ingram, under their arm, in a well cut suit.
My notion of 'self defense' begins at 21 feet, and trajectory doesn't mean much, there, and it's a lot easier to explain a shooting, at that range.
Righteous, If they find out I shot them, it will be only after a lot of 'reasembly'!
Man is not the 'stoutest' of creatures, and does not take much energy, well placed. to permanently 'cancel his ticket'.
In the '60's, and early '70's, there were a lot of Ruger ST-4's, rebarreled to 6 or 7 inches, with integral supressors, running around South East Asia, both in the light, and especially in the dark.
Interesting pistol; if you cut one arm off the safety, on 'safe' it locks the bolt forward, rendering it an extremely quiet pistol, for taking out folks whose hollering might screw up a mission.
Some old WWII High standards, as well, but they made more noise with the action, and on ejection.
These are NOT practical CCW pistols, as the first sight or shot of them in most cases, could cost ten K, and ten years, but in task and hands they were used, delivered more than a few ears.
Josh, why would I have any trouble trusting a government that sent me to exotic places, filled with exciting people, and told me to kill them?
A government that just today bought a company that was traded 6 months ago, for $180/share, for $2/share, and calls itself altruistic, in the purchase?
I love big government; it's why I buy lots of ammo, and stash it in four or five states!

[Terry_P]

Al Mount:

I think what you are referring to as to why the 1911 was adopted is the Spanish American War in the Phillipines the Moro's were shot with 38's and it didn't effectively stop them as they used drugs. The 38's were the 38S&W which is much less powerful than a 38 SPl and a lot less powerful than a 38 SPL+P.

I think the 38 Spl with a +P load has a decided advantage over the 380 in stopping power.

[Bill DeShivs]

Terry P-
Actually, it was the .38 Colt round-probably less powerful than .38 S&W.

[Terry_P]

I thought they were the same round and Colt called it the 38 Colt because they didn't want Smith and Wesson on the side of their BBL's or is that the infamous "Urban legend".

[kilogulf59]

I chose .38 because the question was “what’s your preference”…I prefer the more powerful round.

With that said, the .380 ain’t bad especially for the recoil sensitive and I would carry one.

[TranterUK]

Originally Posted by kilogulf59

I chose .38 because the question was “what’s your preference”…I prefer the more powerful round.

I agree with the above. I prefer semi autos over revolvers as a rule, but given the choice for self defence between a .380 and .38 spl it has to be the .38 spl. Conditions permitting in a 3" or 4" K Frame rather than a snubby.

[user]

Originally Posted by stash247

User, I will tell you I have killed a lot of hogs, with a .22 lr, and most weighed far more than a man; it's not what you hit them with, so much as where!
I would totally agree on the .38 Spl as a 'floor' caliber, for self defense, but we ought to be talking seven foot range.
All of that said, I still carry a Walther TPH, in .22 LR, in my jacket, and do NOT feel under gunned, just know I my fire a couple more shots.

My point exactly, and you clearly have the skill necessary to use such a weapon. That's why I'd said, "You can use a .380 or a .22Lr for that matter, but you have to be at close range, be an accurate shooter, and have a good working knowledge of human anatomy, in my opinion. The Beretta Bobcat, for example, is a terrific gun at eight to ten feet."

Originally Posted by stash247

'Scuse my stupid, but fifty feet seems a long ways away to claim 'self defense', in any but a battlefield, ...

The stupidity was mine, I wasn't clear enough. I use the fifty yard criterion simply as a measure of capability, performance, and trajectory. The assumption being that if it will be effective (assuming good aim, of course) at that distance it will certainly work at seven to ten yards. And if the bullet drops, say, an inch or so at that distance, then at seven to ten yards, it will be flying so straight that there will be no functional difference between the actual trajectory and a perfectly flat path. So that's just a way of comparing cartridges.

[kilogulf59]

People, not that I wish to deviate from deinonychus75’s theme for this thread, except I felt compelled to give my opinion at the admirable comments made by stash247 and user.

While I essentially agree with the comments made, I would like to adjoin that there is a bit more to consider as well. Mainly this; perfect shot placement is a goal of close combat training…one that is rarely achieved in actual combat.

Speaking hypothetically, if I may, let us examine two identical shots on two identical assailants. The caliber of handguns used are a .22 Long Rifle and a .357 Magnum and the shots are placed in the lower neck region, above the suprasternal notch and missing the vertical column by ¾-inch or so either to the left or right.

With the .22, you have a good hit that may possibly cause an eventual “bleed out” and/or facial/upper body paralysis. It is a very serous wound, due to the veins, arteries, nerves, spine, etcetera, all compacted in a confined space, though it is hardly a stopping shot. The temporary wound cavity may cause the assailant to stagger but I doubt much more, adrenalin overcomes a lot. In all honesty, if he is doped up he may not even react.

Subsequently, the exact same scenario except this time is the .357 Magnum bullet. The wound cavity is large enough to cause permanent, if not terminal, damage. The temporary channel alone is sufficient to drop the “misguided individual” instantly. The human body cannot overcome that type of shock and damage to its central nervous system or CNS.

While shot placement is important, regardless of the round used, caliber (size AND speed) does come into play. It is comparable to explosives. If you were 50 yards from a hand grenade that explodes you’ll be fine, if it were a 155mm HE artillery round you’d probably be dead or close to it.

Consequently as not to be thought of as “holier than thou” on this subject, I too occasionally carry a small caliber pocket pistol (IJ TP22 & Beretta 950). However, I consider these firearms “contact weapons” as opposed to a combat handgun. I also make sure I have a backup to said pistol, such as a knife or sap, at the very least (I normally do). Should an altercation arise I will engage as my training and the situation dictates, nonetheless I know it will end up as a full contact event. Therefore, I anticipate either the pistols final rounds going upwards under his chin or directly into his ear or eye. (You can and should practice this but please use a toy pistol and BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL).

Below I have included three images depicting the wound channels of a .22 Long Rifle, a .357 Magnum, and 5.56 x 45mm standard NATO round. The last is included to demonstrate the effect of speed on like sized projectiles. It is a .22, slightly heavier and much faster than the LR round.

PLEASE NOTE: the .22 LR was fired from a rifle not a short barreled pistol which greatly affects the velocity of the round.It should be noted s well that the bullet shown is a hollow point.

I would like to thank the Firearms Tactical Institute and Dr. Martin L. Fackler for unknowingly allowing the use of these images.

Once more, I would like to express regret for having turned the thread. My only concern is for the safety of decent individuals like us, our families, and friends.

[happyhunter42]

I chose .38spl because you can't fire a .380 in a S&W Mod 10, or a Colt Official Police Revolver.

[oscarmayer]

except in time of war there have been more people killed with a 22 than any other caliber. ask the mosad.......

[kilogulf59]

” except in time of war there have been more people killed with a 22 than any other caliber. ask the mosad.......”

Oscarmayer, while that is probably true the statement, in and of itself, is rather misleading and open-ended. It is not that the .22 Long Rifle is a superior killing round, it’s that it is a cheap and readily available one. That is essentially the reason for the statistic. From an assassination standpoint, the .22 is the easiest round to silence with the ability to incorporate the silencer with the pistol as opposed to it hanging off the front.

I am certain that you and most of the members and guests here are aware of this nonetheless I felt it prudent not to mislead any less knowledgeable folks in the wrong direction.

The .22’s are a killing round, as are any firearm cartridges, but it is not a so-called stopping round.

[oscarmayer]

kilogulf59 to be sure everything you state is very true. i would never support the idea a 22 was anything other than it is. i just found it interesting. as you noticed i didn't get into any details but again you're correct in pointing out the other half of the story.

[kilogulf59]

OM,

Thanks for taking my comment the way it was intended.

[oscarmayer]

i think my main reason for throwing out that little known fact is this. i grow tired of seeing.... lol a 22 or a 25 acp!!! hell if someone shot me with one of those and i found out i'd be pissed remarks. weak rounds to be sure but able to get the job done if common sense is employeed a 22 can be very destructive when properly placed as can a 25 acp ( aim for the eye sockets). there are rare times when i carry my 25 beretta 950 and have often heard that very same remark .... but oddly enough when i volunteer to shoot someone with it to disprove their theory i get turned down.

[kilogulf59]

Oscar we agree completely but perhaps we should take this chat here Thoughts On Small Caliber Handguns as we are off-topic.

[happyhunter42]

This thread has to do with preference. A persons preference has to do with a lot of things. I base mine on what firearms i own. I also base it on availablity of said ammunition. I was out rabbit hunting one day and stopped off at a small store out in the woods for a snack. The store had rifle, pistol, and shot shells for sell. There were
.243, .270, 30-06,and 30-30 shells. Pistol rounds were .22, .38, .357, and .44. The shot shells were 410, 20, 12ga, all birdshot. That tells me that if you need shells for a
.380 in that store your out of luck.

[kilogulf59]

HH42 that is a very valid consideration indeed and an oft overlooked one at that sir.

[happy1]

My CCW carry is a Taurus 85 Ultra Lite 2 in. loaded either with Glaser safety slugs or Fed. Hydro Shoks

[happy1]

Just a thought But you could kill a bear sticking a big stick up his a*s, The hard part would be convincing him he's dead

[carver]

Scudrunner, have you tried the "Smart Carry" system? If not, then go take a look at it at smartcarry.com. I use one myself. I usually am carring a .44 Bull Dog or my 1911A, and I am almost always in shorts and T shirt. Sometimes though I will carry my SP101 or even my .380, mostly depends on where I'm headed to. As for having to make a choice between the .38 and .380, I'd have to go with the .38. IMHO Bigger is better!

[patrol]

This is a good thread, so I'm gonna keep it going with a comment. I think both calibers have their disadvantages and advantages the advantage to both is the guns that shoot em are small enough that you might actually be willing to leave home with them. A j frame and a slimline Ruger LCP or Keltec is great for a front pocket or as an officers back up gun under his vest or even a homemade neck holster carry Im making one like a necklace to wear under my vest that will rest between my upper chest and the vest. They both are handguns that your wife or female loved one might be willing to carry as well. With todays excellent choice in defensive ammo both will fit the bill as far as ballistics go and both are better to have than nothing.

[Terry_P]

Originally Posted by happy1

Just a thought But you could kill a bear sticking a big stick up his a*s, The hard part would be convincing him he's dead

Plus getting him to hold still why you did.