Hopkins & Allen revolver

[lil1weasle]

I have a H&A .38 it says Forehand Model 1801 Hopkins & Allen Arms Co. Norwich Ct. USA. The guy I bought it from said it was a .32 but I thought it was a bit big for a .32. Turns out it's a .38. Though I'm not sure what kind. Someone suggested maybe short colt. Anyone have any idea?

[Xracer]

Hi lil1weasle.....welcome to TFF.

Kinda hard to ID your H&A Forehand model, since there were 5 different versions of it made in .22 RF, .32 and .38 centerfire.

Is it solid frame or top break?

Does it have a full hammer, bobbed hammer, hammerless, or folding hammer?

Can you post a picture of it? Full length, both right & left sides. That would sure help.

Are you sure it's a Model 1801 and not a Model 1901?

It's possible that your caliber is .38 Smith & Wesson, (AKA .38 Colt New Police) or even .38-40 WCF, since those are two of the calibers in which the Forehand model was offered.....BUT.....it's also possible that it was offered in other .38 centerfire calibers as well.

I can tell you that your revolver was made between 1901 and 1909. Forehand & Wadsworth Arms Co. started in 1871, became Forehand Arms in 1890, and was bought out by Hopkins & Allen in 1901. H&A dropped the Forehand logo in 1909.

[b.goforth]

i believe the revolver H&A marked "FOREHAND MODEL 1901" is a top break revolver with automatic ejection. it is my belief these were manufactured for only a few years until the supply of parts (left over from Forehand Arms Co.) were used up. Hopkins & Allen purchased Forehand Arms Co. for thier factory not thier products. H&A factory burned to the ground about 1900 or a little earlier but it was close to the time Sullivan Forehand either retired or passed away and the Forehand Arms co. was put up for sale.

the caliber is 38 S&W not 38 colt short. this revolver should also be considered as "black powder only" as there has been no evidence that either Forehand Arms Co. or Hopkins & Allen ever made any handguns designed for smokeless powder ammo.

H&A also sold a single barrel shotgun simple marked "Forehand Model" for a while.
bill

[lil1weasle]

I believe what b.goforth said is accurate. I attached a few pictures. It may say 1901 on the top of the barrell, I thought it said 1801, its hard to make out. If it is black powder does that mean smokeless ammo can't be fired out of it? Oh yeah one last thing the grips have F&W and a shield on them. I'm assuming it stands for Forehand and Wadsworth, which contributes to b.goforth's theory.

[Xracer]

Originally Posted by lil1weasle

If it is black powder does that mean smokeless ammo can't be fired out of it?

Well.....yes and no. Modern smokeless .38 S&W shouldn't be used in your gun. However, .38 S&W Cowboy Action Ammunition, should be OK....it's loaded down to blackpowder pressures.

http://www.shootguns.info/cowboy.htm

BUT....before you even think of shooting a gun 100 years old, you should take it to a competent gunsmith to have it checked it out safety.

[b.goforth]

the pictures you posted proves to me that at least originally this model was made using F&W and Forehand Arms Co. parts. this revolver does not have the typical H&A action (seperate single action sear behind the trigger).
bill

[lil1weasle]

Thank you and yes i plan on having it checked out Xracer. It seems to be in good shape, but that doesn't always mean somethings safe. And b.goforth that last post just aided to confuse me even more?? Does that mean that it may be a put together gun, not a regular production?

[Xracer]

Originally Posted by lil1weasle

Does that mean that it may be a put together gun, not a regular production?

No, it was regular production. When H&A bought out F&W they got a large inventory of F&W parts. H&A continued to assemble them and sold them as the Hopkins & Allen Forehand Models......until they ran out of the F&W parts, then they dropped the model.

[b.goforth]

sorry for the confussion. this is a factory assembled revolver. it was assembled after Hopkins & Allen took control of the Forehand Arms Co. factory the barrel markings of Forehand Model 1901 Hopkins & Allen Co. Norwich CT. U.S.A. is the indicator of this. it was assembled entirely from the inventory of parts that came with the factory when H&A took possession. the physical features of this revolver indicate it has no features that are typical of any Hopkins & Allen Co. top break revolvers manufactured in their factory before it burnt to the ground. the fact that it has F&W grips is another indicator as frames of H&A top break revolver are different form top break frames manufactured by Forehand/F&W.

in my opinion you have a very interesting transtional revolver (forehand/F&W parts and H&A markings). just because i find it interesting does not necessarily add extra value to it.

since i like to ramble on this has probably confused you also. the simple answer is, this is a H&A factory assembled revolver most likely in 1901 or 1902.

just remember an interesting side note, when H&A was purchased by marlin/rockwell about 1917 or so, marlin assembled quite a few H&A revolvers from parts on hand but they did not even take the time or make the effort to change the markings (these were mostly solid frame revolvers and sold until about 1920).

xracers answer was posted while i was typing mine. his is clear correct and to the point.
thanks
bill

[lil1weasle]

Ok thanks. Im not confused anymore. the information was really helpful. and i know all about rambling i do it alot myself. Oh one more thing I looked up old ammo and it seems that the powder load is pretty much the same as new ammo, or am I not looking right?

[b.goforth]

i do not reload and i am not a chemist and know nothing about chemistry but i do know it is not the quanity of powder but the type. black and smokeless powders are two different propellants. smokeless creates very high pressures and black creates lower pressures. the high pressure is the problem with firearms designed for black powder, the metal they are made of just won't contain the high pressure.
bill

[Xracer]

Bill's absolutely right.

It's not the volume of powder in the cartridge, but the type.....and actually, the speed at which it burns and the pressure it creates.

Modern smokeless powders create much higher pressures than blackpowder did. If you did your own reloading, you could load reduced charges of modern smokeless powder to reproduce the lower pressures that blackpowder cartridges had.

Until fairly recently, you'd have been out of luck finding modern ammo you could use in your old H&A......however, with the growing popularity of "Cowboy Action Shooting" (which is limited to firearms made before 1900, or reproductions thereof), a number of smaller cartridge companies are now loading ammo for Cowboy Action Shooting which are loaded down to blackpowder pressures for those old firearms.

Soooooo.....the bottom line is.....if you want to shoot your old H&A, get it checked out by a good gunsmith, get some "Cowboy Action" .38 S&W, and.....BLAST AWAY!!!!

[lil1weasle]

I knew that already, about the pressure. LOL My brain wasn't working when I asked that last question.

[Lawman1Bravo]

Does any one know where you can get parts for the 1801 the pistol breaches opens and where to get the Ammo for these pistols at ???

[old garrett]

I have a .32 Iver Johnson hammerless 2nd model revolver which needs a new lifter.the books I have seen do not have much detail on this part. Can the lifter be interchanged
with the first or the new model hammerless or will any of the safety hammmer models fit.

[45Auto]

Old garrett: I have not noticed any difference in the .32 2nd model lifters.

Parts: The Gunparts corporation (Numric) appears to be the best source. http://www.e-gunparts.com/

Forhand Model: For some reason, Forhand continued to use Forhand & Wadsworth "F&W" grips long after Mr. Wadsworth's death and the company name changed to Forhand Arms co. For either marketing or out of respect for the memory of Mr. Wadsworth, the grips remained F&W. They must have had lots of grips on hand because I have seen plenty of Hopkins & Allen "Forhand model" solid frame and brake top revolvers with F&W grips on them.

[b.goforth]

the lifters on the first and second model are interchangable, the third model lifters or not. there is a difference in the lifters for the hammer and hammerless models also.
bill

[thegouch]

Originally Posted by lil1weasle

I believe what b.goforth said is accurate. I attached a few pictures. It may say 1901 on the top of the barrell, I thought it said 1801, its hard to make out. If it is black powder does that mean smokeless ammo can't be fired out of it? Oh yeah one last thing the grips have F&W and a shield on them. I'm assuming it stands for Forehand and Wadsworth, which contributes to b.goforth's theory.

Hello, I have the exact fire arm described by this gentleman of course the serial number being different (B3055) i swear it the photographs could be the gun im holding. Please not im only stating this for their likeness and not discrediting this gentleman even in the slightest. they are his photographs. anyway does anybody know round a bout what this pistol is worth?

[thegouch]

Hello i recieved this fire arm from my father in law and would like to learn about it every way possible. especially what it may be worth. i have a forehand model 1901. (stamped) hopkins & allen arms co. norwich, ct. u.s.a.(stamped) pistol. both of the fore mentioned inscriptions are stamped into the top side of the barrel. it's a revolver i believe it to be either .38 caliber holding 5 shells. very, very good condition. has the break away type loading. just like an over under shotgun would have. a "t" type clasp acts as a lock and rear sight. its double action. has a seemingly short handle with what appers to be a black resin grip w cross hatch gripping and the raised emblems of an 8 pointed law enforcement type star on the lower portion of the handle. a crescent shaped banner points facing downward with the letters"f&w" inside of it with what appears to be a leaf design on either side of the letters. just below the banner is a shield crest the same as the one shown on the old shield nickles. the shield has a design inside of it resembling the american flag tars on top numbering 16. stripes on bottom numbering 9. when unlatched and let downword the revolverhas a piece that kicks out the spent shells stamped with the number 55. the actual revolver that holds the shells is also stamped with the number 55. the serial # stamped on the butt of the handle is B3055. any info would be absolutely cherished. thank you.

[thegouch]

Hello i recieved this fire arm from my father in law and would like to learn about it every way possible. especially what it may be worth. i have a forehand model 1901. (stamped) hopkins & allen arms co. norwich, ct. u.s.a.(stamped) pistol. both of the fore mentioned inscriptions are stamped into the top side of the barrel. it's a revolver i believe it to be either .38 caliber holding 5 shells. very, very good condition. has the break away type loading. just like an over under shotgun would have. a "t" type clasp acts as a lock and rear sight. its double action. has a seemingly short handle with what appers to be a black resin grip w cross hatch gripping and the raised emblems of an 8 pointed law enforcement type star on the lower portion of the handle. a crescent shaped banner points facing downward with the letters"f&w" inside of it with what appears to be a leaf design on either side of the letters. just below the banner is a shield crest the same as the one shown on the old shield nickles. the shield has a design inside of it resembling the american flag tars on top numbering 16. stripes on bottom numbering 9. when unlatched and let downword the revolverhas a piece that kicks out the spent shells stamped with the number 55. the actual revolver that holds the shells is also stamped with the number 55. the serial # stamped on the butt of the handle is B3055. any info would be absolutely cherished. thank you.

[thegouch]

update: thanks guys took a min to read most of the prior posts concerning this pistol. learned a lot. the one main question im now looking for is whats it worth. anybody have any info. as to what it may be worth? just for the sake of knowing of course im not looking to get rid of it. not that anybodys interested. wrong forum for that anyway.

[b.goforth]

the 30th edition of the blue book list the H&A forehand model 1901 at 100%=$190 down to 60%=$75. the H&A Forehand Model 1901 should be treated as a black powder only model. they were offered between 1899 and 1906.
bill

[foxesraven]

Originally Posted by b.goforth

the 30th edition of the blue book list the H&A forehand model 1901 at 100%=$190 down to 60%=$75. the H&A Forehand Model 1901 should be treated as a black powder only model. they were offered between 1899 and 1906.
bill

What would be the value of a Forehand 1901. (stamped) hopkins & allen arms co. norwich, ct. u.s.a.(stamped) pistol that is hammerless? I just purchased one in excellent firing condition.

[b.goforth]

being hammerless adds about $10 to the value.

bill

[william.hamill]

Hello, do you know anything about a Hopkins & Allen XLL Double Action Revolver? I'm pretty sure it is a 7 shot cylinder, I think it might be .22 but I am not sure. Have you heard of this model?

Thank you!