Need some basic info on an original 1911 ACP

[Wolery]

Basicly I'm writing a stroy about a German General in WWII, who not being very happy with Hitler, decides he's gonna kill the bastard. Since this is alternate history, I can do what ever I want, but having the little details sinc up would be nice.

Here's the question: At the beginning, he has to get close enough to Hitler to kill him personally and then shoot his way out. Now, as he's supposed to be meeting with Hitler, he can't bring in an StG cause that would make people nervous. So he needs a good pistol: as an officer's badge he can wear it without it getting taken away, most of the time. To that end, I figure he needs a .45 pistol, a mankiller. I originally thought maybe a Peacemaker, but that won't work for the purposes of story. But there's a couple of tricks:

He buys it in 1913 at age 16, so it can't be too expensive
This model is cobalt blue, with wood handles.
When and if they become avialible, he uses magnum bullets for extra killing power.

ANything I should know?

And another, more gruesome question: If he shotts Hitler multiple times at point blank range with either regular .45 or magnum rounds, will the body bounce a round a little bit? Please say yes, but only it's the truth. It would add so much to the story. God bless.

[delta13soultaker]

Maybe some time in the library researching the actually history period of your story before you get artistic with an alternate history of that period would be a better place to start...then start getting notes on the technical details....

[Wolery]

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

Maybe some time in the library researching the actually history period of your story before you get artistic with an alternate history of that period would be a better place to start...then start getting notes on the technical details....

I'm actually doing that now. I'm working my way through "The Coming of the Third Reich" trilogy and hope to be done with the first two by the time the third comes out (man these things are long!)

But in all seriousness, this IS research, albiet unorthodox research into things needed to make the story work. And if there are books I should read, by all means share!

[delta13soultaker]

When I wrote for my literary/writing classes I pushed towards sci-fi, because that's what I like reading...and I could invent as I went along...but I did find myself researching certain history events/periods to sorta validate ideas and things. (I prolly should go back and put more time in microsoft classes because spreadsheets and stuff are kicking my butt now that I'm in higher positions of responsibility that doom me to highly detailed accountability!)

I don't know your experience level in writing but I guess what I was saying is that plot and conflicts needs to run your story...not technical stuff.

The best advice ever indirectly given to me on that was, "Just tell the damn story".

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

When I wrote for my literary/writing classes I pushed towards sci-fi, because that's what I like reading..

We are definitely kindred spirits then, Delta. As a kid I read everything Heinlein, Asimov, and Clark wrote, plus many many others! I read sci-fi much of the time and still do. Have you read any of the David Weber "Honor Harrington" novels yet?

[Xracer]

Sounds like a fascinating subject for a Sci-Fi book. There were quite a few attempts on Hitler's life ( http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan..._attempts.html )

For the purposes of your story, there are no such thing as .45 ACP Magnum cartridges.....and.....in the timeframe of WWII, there weren't even such thing as +P loads (a higher power version of .45ACP than the standard load).

However, all is not lost! Even back then, gun enthusiasts were handloading standard calibers to higher power and, while there were no .45ACP hollow point bullets available commercially, attempts were being made to cause the bullets to expand by carving an "X" in the nose of the standard roundnosed bullet, or by drilling a hole in the nose.

Would the bullets bounce Hitler "around a bit"? At close range, you're damned right they would! Hitler wasn't a large man (5'8" and about 140-150 lbs.), so at close range, even the standard GI .45ACP load would bounce him around quite a bit.

BTW, for my expert advice (been shootin' 1911s for 50+ years) I expect a credit in the book, an autographed copy, and a share of the profits....

This is fun.....Any other questions? Keep 'em comin'.

Hey PS.....I wonder if David Weber gave Honor Harrington an "H-H" name in tribute to Horatio Hornblower.....an obvious model for the Harrington Series?

[Wolery]

Originally Posted by Xracer

Would the bullets bounce Hitler "around a bit"? At close range, you're damned right they would! Hitler wasn't a large man (5'8" and about 140-150 lbs.), so at close range, even the standard GI .45ACP load would bounce him around quite a bit.

Hot digity damn!

Originally Posted by Xracer

BTW, for my expert advice (been shootin' 1911s for 50+ years) I expect a credit in the book, an autographed copy, and a share of the profits....

Well lets see if I can get it published first. I won't self publish cause apperently if you do that you axe any potential career in wiritng you could have had.

Originally Posted by Xracer

Hey PS.....I wonder if David Weber gave Honor Harrington an "H-H" name in tribute to Horatio Hornblower.....an obvious model for the Harrington Series?

If you want, I can give a grunt a version of your name, nickname, or personality. Might be a Volkstrum guy though judging from how long you've been shooting .45s. But I'll be happy to take requests though.

Originally Posted by Xracer

This is fun.....Any other questions? Keep 'em comin'.

Yes actually since you are a member of the staff. Is it OK to talk about AH matters in the history forum? Especially related to small arms? And while it's not technically within the perview of the forum, I am working on the first chapter in case I've peaked any one's interest, I wouldn't want to leave them hanging. Could I post it when I'm done? First chapter is the killing Hitler scene. I need it to be bold and dramatic and engaging to the reader or nothing else in the story will work. If I can post, I will, if not, don't worry about it. I just wanna know. And finally, is there a good 9mm vs. .45 calliber thread I could read cause my Becker character strongly beleives in the .45 but people keep telling me the fact that the 9mm standard is a pea shooter is more than compensated by the fact that one can carry more ammo? And I'd like to get my barrings straight on the matter.

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

We are definitely kindred spirits then, Delta. As a kid I read everything Heinlein, Asimov, and Clark wrote, plus many many others! I read sci-fi much of the time and still do. Have you read any of the David Weber "Honor Harrington" novels yet?

Yes, Sir! I read Asimov as a kid too...although he'd been around awhile then and was in the classic catagory.

Where ever the Army is deployed there's a steady supply of many many used novels being donated by communities and organizations that is made available by MWR. I'm guessing they did same thing in Vietnam. I took advantage of that in Iraq...one great way to get a break from where you are is to fall asleep reading about somewhere else...lol I read lots of Weber doing exactly that.

If we're mentioning authors I have to mention Orson Scott Card. If I pick up one of his books I can't stop reading and many times have read his paperbacks until the covers were loose.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by Xracer

Hey PS.....I wonder if David Weber gave Honor Harrington an "H-H" name in tribute to Horatio Hornblower.....an obvious model for the Harrington Series?

Indeed he did, X. Many have commented that Weber's books were modeled on C.S. Forester's Horatio Hornblower series. Having read both, I tend to agree they were, though the personal characterization of Honor Harrington is quite different from Horatio Hornblower.

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

If we're mentioning authors I have to mention Orson Scott Card. If I pick up one of his books I can't stop reading and many times have read his paperbacks until the covers were loose.

I've read his stuff as well, Delta. By far my favorite is his Ender's Game. Have you read The Forever War by Joe Haldeman, or any of the David Drake novels? I love all sci-fi, but I am especially partial to the military genre, what some call "space opera."

[delta13soultaker]

Ender's Game...first one that comes to mind when I hear about O.S. Card.

Can't recall if I've read the other two. The Forever War sounds worth checking on.

And I agree. Space Opera is the most entertaining.

[Xracer]

Originally Posted by Wolery

Is it OK to talk about AH matters in the history forum? Especially related to small arms?

Absolutely! In fact, the Military & History Forum is probably the best place for this. We've got a whole bunch of very knowledgeable history buffs & gun nuts down there who'll be very happy to help with whatever info you need.

I'd suggest that you just copy & paste your original post down there.

Also.....I've been thinking about the M1911 in your story, and have a few thoughts.....

The original Commercial model M1911 came out in 1912 and the early ones (below serial # 4500) were manufactured with a High Polish Blue finish.....and, of course, all M1911s, both Commercial and Military had diamond checkered (wooden) walnut grips.

Here's a problem, though. You say "He buys it in 1913 at age 16, so it can't be too expensive"........well, it would've been quite expensive. The gun hit the market in 1912, so there probably wouldn't have been any used ones around (especially not in Europe, where they'd probably be quite rare in that timeframe).....and back then, the new price would've probably been a month's wages (or more) for the average European.

Maybe you could have a rich uncle die and leave our hero a small inheritance.....or something like that.

See ya down in the M&H Forum.......

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

Can't recall if I've read the other two. The Forever War sounds worth checking on.

And I agree. Space Opera is the most entertaining.

Delta, if you have not read The Forever War by Joe Haldeman, run, do not walk, to the nearest bookstore and get a copy! It is still in print. The book won the Hugo by the way. It is essentially a Vietnam war type novel set in the far future. Lots of action in it, but also the frustration of a seemingly "forever" war (we're talking centuries here due to time dilation) which turns out ultimately to have been for little purpose.

[Wolery]

Originally Posted by Xracer

The original Commercial model M1911 came out in 1912 and the early ones (below serial # 4500) were manufactured with a High Polish Blue finish.....and, of course, all M1911s, both Commercial and Military had diamond checkered (wooden) walnut grips.

Here's a problem, though. You say "He buys it in 1913 at age 16, so it can't be too expensive"........well, it would've been quite expensive. The gun hit the market in 1912, so there probably wouldn't have been any used ones around (especially not in Europe, where they'd probably be quite rare in that timeframe).....and back then, the new price would've probably been a month's wages (or more) for the average European.

Sweet, I figured Becker was gonna blow his summer wages on a gun, and this is one hell of a gun. And that description of the guns below 4500 is ExACTLY what he and I would want in a pistol, looks at least.

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Delta, if you have not read The Forever War by Joe Haldeman, run, do not walk, to the nearest bookstore and get a copy! It is still in print. The book won the Hugo by the way. It is essentially a Vietnam war type novel set in the far future. Lots of action in it, but also the frustration of a seemingly "forever" war (we're talking centuries here due to time dilation) which turns out ultimately to have been for little purpose.

Thanks, Pistol. I'll order it.

[Xracer]

Well that's OK then Wolery. If he saved up his whole summer's wages, that probably would've enough to purchase the gun.

Maybe he spots the gun in a gun shop in the spring of 1913, and drools all over it.....and the kindly gunshop owner agrees to put it aside until the fall when he can afford it with his summer's wages.....

Hey......we're gettin' there!!!

[Pistolenschutze]

Worley, just a thought . . . if you're doing an "alternate history" or "time tracks" kind of sci-fi novel, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to work out a subplot wherein your protagonist managed, somehow, to gain access to advanced technology from the future. You seem to want a very powerful handgun for this scene, and the .45 ACP 1911 was old hat by Hitler's time. If you could work it in, how about Smith & Wesson's new X-frame in .500 S&W caliber? Another thought: What about a special relationship between your main character and John M. Browning? Browning builds the kid a very special revolver or pistol, far ahead of its time. If anyone could have done that, it would have been Browning.

[Wolery]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Worley, just a thought . . . if you're doing an "alternate history" or "time tracks" kind of sci-fi novel, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to work out a subplot wherein your protagonist managed, somehow, to gain access to advanced technology from the future. You seem to want a very powerful handgun for this scene, and the .45 ACP 1911 was old hat by Hitler's time. If you could work it in, how about Smith & Wesson's new X-frame in .500 S&W caliber? Another thought: What about a special relationship between your main character and John M. Browning? Browning builds the kid a very special revolver or pistol, far ahead of its time. If anyone could have done that, it would have been Browning.

Those are interesting ideas, but there's no time travel in this one. Rather, this world is a world unto itself. There's no exact divergence point, but this world is essentially a low level steampunk, where the tech level is the same as our World War II, but the various techs have mostly been explored. This is a world of airships and helicopters, TVs and (mostly in public places and mostly in Germany) and book sized cassettes, and trans-Atlantic phone comminication via co-axial cables. The tech is there, but it will take them 20-30 years to catch up in miniaturization and refinement.

And besides, Becker doesn't leave Europe until 1927 when he goes to Iran and gets expelled a few days later by beating the crap out of seminary student for beating a dog. It nearly kills his career. He does go to America, but not until 1930. He never knew John Browning, though he does get to know John Garand...and George Patton.

And sorry for the belated reply, my computer got nuked and I just started a new job for the holidays, so I've been taking stock. Anyway, Merry Christmas you guys!

[Xracer]

Well, Wolery, when he gets to the Springfield Armory to meet John Garand, maybe he can say hello to my father....who worked as a draftsman with Garand on the development of the M1 rifle.