Moisin Nagant Tula 1930 octagon reciever, worth much? - The Firearms Forum

AngelDeville · 11-20-2007, 06:56 PM

I have an M44 carbine so I know a little about Nagant's

-BUT- I stop at a local pawn shop and find a sweet deal on an M91/30

Are the octagon receivers worth more?

I have been looking for an M91/30 for a sniper conversion, is this a good candidate?

Bore and condition are good to excellent, but it has a lighter wood stock so I assume it has had some armory re-workings to it, bolt serial # matches..

pics up later...

Thanks!

mikaldulee · 11-20-2007, 08:00 PM

I like them also, but there are a heap of them on the market. At one time the Hex receivers(Tula) were about $10-20 more if I remember correctly.

I personally look for laminated stocks and good bores, but to each their own. They are sure fun to tinker with. Enjoy!

AngelDeville · 11-20-2007, 10:28 PM

I would feel bad if I modified something potentially rare, I'm not saying I still wouldn't do it, but I'd feel bad.... Now the search for sniper parts begins......

For sure the stock has been replaced (beechwood?), and a thorough cleaning yielded no surprises. there is a goofy proof mark on the stock, a box with a slash through it....

Top is my M44 it's recently been taken out of a 10 month kitty litter bath to remove cosmoline (just the stock). I'm going to slug the bore on both, and probably mix me up a batch of gas-check lead rounds for them.

AngelDeville · 11-20-2007, 10:38 PM

A wealth of info can be found here... http://7.62x54r.net/

polishshooter · 11-21-2007, 09:29 AM

The box with a slash through it is the post-war arsenal refurb marking...it means that it was refurbished after the war at an arsenal, probably Izhevsk.

Yeah, a 1930 Tula 91/30 is a little more collectible than a standard Hex Tula, simply because of the date, it is one of the very first actual new production Model 91/1930s, and not a conversion of earlier 91s... I have a nice 1931 Tula that is the same way...

Generally speaking, the Round receivers started in 1936, so any arsenal 1936 or earlier would be Hex, and now jobbers are charging a premium for them (they didn't at first!) and Tula production was less than Izhevsk (mainly due to the interruption of WWII and the fact that Tula made most of the SVD 38 and 40 rifles, so cut back severely on 91/30 production from 1938 through 1940....) so they are more "rare" than Izhevks...

There is also an "Old wive's tale" that Tulas are more accurate, so were the preferred Snayperskaya, but that is hogwash, there were more Izzys converted than Tulas, simply because there were MORE of them available, but there is no evidence they are more accurate than the Izzys, and I have seen "real" as apposed to "reincarnated" snipers from both arsenals, and both bring about the same....both were equally accurate.

You can find EARLIER dated 91/30s, which would have been 91s converted to 91/30 specs....I have one dated 1920, and have owned ones dated 1927 and 1929, those also have a "niche" collector's value, some collector's call them "Transition" rifles....but the 1930 dated would be one I'd have trouble making into a sniper...one of the OTHER problems, is the Russians only made snipers from newly made rifles, and didn't begin to make any 91/30 snipers until 1932, so it would stick out as a sore thumb to collectors as a "fake..." even if not your intention.

Now the main reason Mosin sniper rifles are so reasonably priced, is they made so MANY of them! By the end of the war, the Russians had several sniper REGIMENTS mostly all armed with 91/30 sniper rifles! They made a total of at LEAST 185,000 of the several variations of 91/30 sniper rifles alone, along with tens of thousands of SVD snayperskayas too.....

After the war, they cut back on the sheer number of snipers, and so had a large surplus of sniper rifles, so when MANY of them were sent back to an arsenal for refurbishing after the war, they were converted BACK to regular 91/30 configuration and then stored away....they removed the scope and mount (which is why there are so MANY original scopes and mounts on the market today!), welded the mounting holes in the receiver shut (not ALWAYS, but USUALLY) and then glued a peice of wood back into the cutout on the left side of the stock where the mount used to be.

Many of the "Ex-snipers" are available on the market, but if guys know what they are, they bring more.

In 2000 when I first got my CRFFL, I bought a bunch of "cosmo queen" " G-VG" 91/30s from AIM for 3/$99, and one of them was a pretty beat up, ex-sniper 1937 Tula...

The BAD news was I still had no idea what an ex-sniper WAS, so after cleaning it up, I noticed the crude "plugging" of holes just visible on the side of the receiver. under an obvious patched "cutout" on a stock...

...a guy offered me $55 for it and I sold it....

Not a couple of weeks later did I buy my first book on them, and THEN found out what I had....I'm STILL kicking myself...that would have been my conversion...

But not so long ago a friend of mine building a sniper tracked down an ex sniper Izzy from Allegheny Arsenal, for $125, which he "restored" nicely.

AngelDeville · 11-21-2007, 01:13 PM

I'm not looking to make a "fake" to fool anyone, just have a nice nostalgic shooter.

It looks like the octagon receiver rifles were fitted with scopes and mounts, but used PE and PEM scopes and had a different mount, as opposed to the PU on the later round receivered ones.

Mine isn't a 91 cossak/dragoon converted to 91/30 specs, otherwise I wouldn't consider the conversion at all, and who knows I may run across a nice PU in my search for the scope/mount.

I did throw it in the safe before I read about the snipers converted back to a standard. so I'll check for any welded up holes in the receiver when I get home.

Overall I'm pretty happy with my pawn shop find

polishshooter · 11-21-2007, 06:21 PM

Oh yeah, they are ALL good finds at reasonable prices, and that one is going to appreciate faster even if you do NOT convert it...

As to the "faking," that is a dilemma we discussed a while ago, and is most appropriate on the Russian snipers....is it REALLY faking to "Restore" one to what it once was?

Besides the fact that ANY owner should be able to do whatever he wants to what HE owns, future owners notwithstanding....

And then throw in the fact that virtually ALL of the 91/30 snipers on the market today, at SOG or AIM, for like $339.00, are technically "fakes," it REALLY clouds the issue...like anymore, how can you TELL an "original?"

AngelDeville · 11-21-2007, 07:01 PM

Home now, and no welded in holes....

so where is it you are finding these, $300 fake snipers?

That is cheaper than I can find the mount, and scope for......

Heck even a "real" sniper probably isn't out of my price range.

A conscript army never had it so good....

polishshooter · 11-21-2007, 07:17 PM

SOG has them for $339, if you have a CRFFL...

http://www.southernohiogun.com/mn.htm

I saw them at a show recently too, retailing for $399...it IS tough to tell them from 'real" ones though....

'Real" ones usually bring between $450 and $600 depending on condition...although I HAVE seen them for sale for MORE, but not necessarily selling....

AngelDeville · 11-21-2007, 07:33 PM

Cool Thanks! no CRFFL for me, but even $600 for a real one would be reasonable.

11-20-2007, 06:56 PM	#1
AngelDeville Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: ABQ Posts: 644	Moisin Nagant Tula 1930 octagon reciever, worth much? I have an M44 carbine so I know a little about Nagant's -BUT- I stop at a local pawn shop and find a sweet deal on an M91/30 Are the octagon receivers worth more? I have been looking for an M91/30 for a sniper conversion, is this a good candidate? Bore and condition are good to excellent, but it has a lighter wood stock so I assume it has had some armory re-workings to it, bolt serial # matches.. pics up later... Thanks! -->

11-20-2007, 08:00 PM	#2
mikaldulee Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 23	Re: Moisin Nagant Tula 1930 octagon reciever, worth much? I like them also, but there are a heap of them on the market. At one time the Hex receivers(Tula) were about $10-20 more if I remember correctly. I personally look for laminated stocks and good bores, but to each their own. They are sure fun to tinker with. Enjoy!

11-20-2007, 10:28 PM	#3
AngelDeville Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: ABQ Posts: 644	Re: Moisin Nagant Tula 1930 octagon reciever, worth much? I would feel bad if I modified something potentially rare, I'm not saying I still wouldn't do it, but I'd feel bad.... Now the search for sniper parts begins...... For sure the stock has been replaced (beechwood?), and a thorough cleaning yielded no surprises. there is a goofy proof mark on the stock, a box with a slash through it.... Top is my M44 it's recently been taken out of a 10 month kitty litter bath to remove cosmoline (just the stock). I'm going to slug the bore on both, and probably mix me up a batch of gas-check lead rounds for them. Last edited by AngelDeville; 11-20-2007 at 10:32 PM..

11-20-2007, 10:38 PM	#4
AngelDeville Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: ABQ Posts: 644	Re: Moisin Nagant Tula 1930 octagon reciever, worth much? A wealth of info can be found here... http://7.62x54r.net/

11-21-2007, 09:29 AM	#5
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,860	Re: Moisin Nagant Tula 1930 octagon reciever, worth much? The box with a slash through it is the post-war arsenal refurb marking...it means that it was refurbished after the war at an arsenal, probably Izhevsk. Yeah, a 1930 Tula 91/30 is a little more collectible than a standard Hex Tula, simply because of the date, it is one of the very first actual new production Model 91/1930s, and not a conversion of earlier 91s... I have a nice 1931 Tula that is the same way... Generally speaking, the Round receivers started in 1936, so any arsenal 1936 or earlier would be Hex, and now jobbers are charging a premium for them (they didn't at first!) and Tula production was less than Izhevsk (mainly due to the interruption of WWII and the fact that Tula made most of the SVD 38 and 40 rifles, so cut back severely on 91/30 production from 1938 through 1940....) so they are more "rare" than Izhevks... There is also an "Old wive's tale" that Tulas are more accurate, so were the preferred Snayperskaya, but that is hogwash, there were more Izzys converted than Tulas, simply because there were MORE of them available, but there is no evidence they are more accurate than the Izzys, and I have seen "real" as apposed to "reincarnated" snipers from both arsenals, and both bring about the same....both were equally accurate. You can find EARLIER dated 91/30s, which would have been 91s converted to 91/30 specs....I have one dated 1920, and have owned ones dated 1927 and 1929, those also have a "niche" collector's value, some collector's call them "Transition" rifles....but the 1930 dated would be one I'd have trouble making into a sniper...one of the OTHER problems, is the Russians only made snipers from newly made rifles, and didn't begin to make any 91/30 snipers until 1932, so it would stick out as a sore thumb to collectors as a "fake..." even if not your intention. Now the main reason Mosin sniper rifles are so reasonably priced, is they made so MANY of them! By the end of the war, the Russians had several sniper REGIMENTS mostly all armed with 91/30 sniper rifles! They made a total of at LEAST 185,000 of the several variations of 91/30 sniper rifles alone, along with tens of thousands of SVD snayperskayas too..... After the war, they cut back on the sheer number of snipers, and so had a large surplus of sniper rifles, so when MANY of them were sent back to an arsenal for refurbishing after the war, they were converted BACK to regular 91/30 configuration and then stored away....they removed the scope and mount (which is why there are so MANY original scopes and mounts on the market today!), welded the mounting holes in the receiver shut (not ALWAYS, but USUALLY) and then glued a peice of wood back into the cutout on the left side of the stock where the mount used to be. Many of the "Ex-snipers" are available on the market, but if guys know what they are, they bring more. In 2000 when I first got my CRFFL, I bought a bunch of "cosmo queen" " G-VG" 91/30s from AIM for 3/$99, and one of them was a pretty beat up, ex-sniper 1937 Tula... The BAD news was I still had no idea what an ex-sniper WAS, so after cleaning it up, I noticed the crude "plugging" of holes just visible on the side of the receiver. under an obvious patched "cutout" on a stock... ...a guy offered me $55 for it and I sold it.... Not a couple of weeks later did I buy my first book on them, and THEN found out what I had....I'm STILL kicking myself...that would have been my conversion... But not so long ago a friend of mine building a sniper tracked down an ex sniper Izzy from Allegheny Arsenal, for $125, which he "restored" nicely. __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living. Last edited by polishshooter; 11-21-2007 at 09:33 AM..

11-21-2007, 01:13 PM	#6
AngelDeville Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: ABQ Posts: 644	Re: Moisin Nagant Tula 1930 octagon reciever, worth much? I'm not looking to make a "fake" to fool anyone, just have a nice nostalgic shooter. It looks like the octagon receiver rifles were fitted with scopes and mounts, but used PE and PEM scopes and had a different mount, as opposed to the PU on the later round receivered ones. Mine isn't a 91 cossak/dragoon converted to 91/30 specs, otherwise I wouldn't consider the conversion at all, and who knows I may run across a nice PU in my search for the scope/mount. I did throw it in the safe before I read about the snipers converted back to a standard. so I'll check for any welded up holes in the receiver when I get home. Overall I'm pretty happy with my pawn shop find

11-21-2007, 06:21 PM	#7
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,860	Re: Moisin Nagant Tula 1930 octagon reciever, worth much? Oh yeah, they are ALL good finds at reasonable prices, and that one is going to appreciate faster even if you do NOT convert it... As to the "faking," that is a dilemma we discussed a while ago, and is most appropriate on the Russian snipers....is it REALLY faking to "Restore" one to what it once was? Besides the fact that ANY owner should be able to do whatever he wants to what HE owns, future owners notwithstanding.... And then throw in the fact that virtually ALL of the 91/30 snipers on the market today, at SOG or AIM, for like $339.00, are technically "fakes," it REALLY clouds the issue...like anymore, how can you TELL an "original?" __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

11-21-2007, 07:01 PM	#8
AngelDeville Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: ABQ Posts: 644	Re: Moisin Nagant Tula 1930 octagon reciever, worth much? Home now, and no welded in holes.... so where is it you are finding these, $300 fake snipers? That is cheaper than I can find the mount, and scope for...... Heck even a "real" sniper probably isn't out of my price range. A conscript army never had it so good....

11-21-2007, 07:17 PM	#9
polishshooter Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Indiana Contributor Posts: 7,860	Re: Moisin Nagant Tula 1930 octagon reciever, worth much? SOG has them for $339, if you have a CRFFL... http://www.southernohiogun.com/mn.htm I saw them at a show recently too, retailing for $399...it IS tough to tell them from 'real" ones though.... 'Real" ones usually bring between $450 and $600 depending on condition...although I HAVE seen them for sale for MORE, but not necessarily selling.... __________________ The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.

11-21-2007, 07:33 PM	#10
AngelDeville Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: ABQ Posts: 644	Re: Moisin Nagant Tula 1930 octagon reciever, worth much? Cool Thanks! no CRFFL for me, but even $600 for a real one would be reasonable.