Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE - The Firearms Forum

bluesea112 · 12-22-2007, 03:22 PM

Reds Trading Post in Idaho recently had their firearms license revoked by the ATF for a few minor clerical errors on Paperwork. Example: According to the ATF, a "willful" ommission is a clerical error as simple as writing down an "N" instead of "NO" on a form.
The owners of Reds Trading Post decided to fight back and took the ATF to court. The ATF abuse was so blatently rediculous, the judge issued an injunction against the ATF to allow Reds Trading Post to keep their FFL and continue doing business until their case goes to Federal court.

The owners of Reds Trading Post have decided to take their fight to Congress, with the hope of ending the ATF's abuse of gun dealers permanently. Reds Trading Post has organized a Congressional Petition that requests Congress to maintain oversight of the ATF to stop harrassment and abuse of legitmate firearm dealers.

There are currently over 5000 signatures on the petition, many of them FFL's/Dealers from all over the country, but many more signatures are needed to get the attention of Congress.

Please take a minute to sign the online petition. Your signature really does make a difference. This is the link:

http://www.petitiononline.com/redstrad/petition.html

I took the time to ask for your help because I love to shoot, and I'll be damned if I lose the ability to pursue my life passion for the simple reason that I did nothing to help support the sport I love. If the ATF succeeds in their mission to shut down dealers, the firearm manufacturers will soon be forced to close as well. Hillary and the Brady's win without even touching the 2nd Amendment.

Nighthawk · 12-22-2007, 07:45 PM

already signed

Marlin · 12-24-2007, 11:26 AM

Done !!!!

300 H&H · 12-24-2007, 12:09 PM

JohnK3 · 12-24-2007, 02:52 PM

The ATFE has a history of assuming authority not granted to it by Congress.

This is very similar to the way they have harassed and almost destroyed hobby rocketry.

They make "rulings" based upon bad science, cite license holders on minor technical charges and there is no penalty to the individual who does so. The agents are ordered by their superiors to engage in this unlawful behavior and the worst thing that can happen to the agent is nothing. NADA. The action is reversed or overruled, but there is no penalty for having made the bad call in the first place. The supervisors know this and tell the agents to continue on with the illegal behavior, because there's nothing to stop them from doing so.

What is needed is a serious penalty to an agent AND HIS SUPERVISOR that engages in this sort of behavior. In that way, the ones responsible would find that nobody wants to follow their lead in this behavior, as nobody wants to pay the price for it.

ponycar17 · 12-24-2007, 04:01 PM

Done...

Marlin T · 12-24-2007, 05:28 PM

armedandsafe · 12-24-2007, 06:10 PM

Number 5224

Pops

berto64 · 12-24-2007, 06:45 PM

LongRifles · 12-25-2007, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnK3

The ATFE has a history of assuming authority not granted to it by Congress.

This is very similar to the way they have harassed and almost destroyed hobby rocketry.

They make "rulings" based upon bad science, cite license holders on minor technical charges and there is no penalty to the individual who does so. The agents are ordered by their superiors to engage in this unlawful behavior and the worst thing that can happen to the agent is nothing. NADA. The action is reversed or overruled, but there is no penalty for having made the bad call in the first place. The supervisors know this and tell the agents to continue on with the illegal behavior, because there's nothing to stop them from doing so.

What is needed is a serious penalty to an agent AND HIS SUPERVISOR that engages in this sort of behavior. In that way, the ones responsible would find that nobody wants to follow their lead in this behavior, as nobody wants to pay the price for it.

I disagree.

I disagree because I feel there should be a reform of the whole organization.

Since when do TAX collectors rate SWAT teams and machine guns?

IRS doesn't have this. (yet)

LongRifles · 12-25-2007, 05:08 AM

Signed.

#5227

sabashimon · 12-26-2007, 03:03 PM

Count me in

JohnK3 · 12-27-2007, 05:02 PM

LR, you're right in that an overhaul of the entire organization is called for. However, accountability needs to be part and parcel of any overhaul. There has to be SOME penalty for engaging in unlawful/unconstitutional behavior. As it stands, there is NONE. The ATFE (who are no longer a part of the Treasury Dept. but of the DOJustice) doesn't even get symbolic slaps on the hands when they engage in illegal stings, unlawful searches and seizures, blatant misinterpretation of the law, etc, etc, ad infinitum.

LongRifles · 12-28-2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnK3

LR, you're right in that an overhaul of the entire organization is called for. However, accountability needs to be part and parcel of any overhaul. There has to be SOME penalty for engaging in unlawful/unconstitutional behavior. As it stands, there is NONE. The ATFE (who are no longer a part of the Treasury Dept. but of the DOJustice) doesn't even get symbolic slaps on the hands when they engage in illegal stings, unlawful searches and seizures, blatant misinterpretation of the law, etc, etc, ad infinitum.

I've read a book that talks of such things.

It offered one possibility for dealing with it too.

travihanson · 12-28-2007, 10:28 PM

Done...5245

torpedoman · 12-28-2007, 10:31 PM

alcohol ,tobbaco and firearms> this should be the name fo a convenience store not a federal agency. done probally get my c&r audited

bunnyhunter12 · 12-28-2007, 10:36 PM

I was 5247.

Don Buckbee · 12-29-2007, 06:33 AM

Done!

Northalius · 12-30-2007, 11:29 AM

Signed. I am 5300.

delta13soultaker · 01-03-2008, 08:48 PM

Signed.

When government workers/agents go above and beyond to nitpick paperwork errors...it's an indication of somebody trying to justify his job!

cohoskip · 01-04-2008, 10:31 AM

Done - #5321

As a former FFL dealer I am definitely in favor of this.

Fortunately I was never harassed by them, but that was 20 years ago...

rdowlg · 03-08-2008, 09:27 PM

rdowlg 5488

12-22-2007, 03:22 PM	#1
bluesea112 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: West, TX Contributor Posts: 1,257	Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE Reds Trading Post in Idaho recently had their firearms license revoked by the ATF for a few minor clerical errors on Paperwork. Example: According to the ATF, a "willful" ommission is a clerical error as simple as writing down an "N" instead of "NO" on a form. The owners of Reds Trading Post decided to fight back and took the ATF to court. The ATF abuse was so blatently rediculous, the judge issued an injunction against the ATF to allow Reds Trading Post to keep their FFL and continue doing business until their case goes to Federal court. The owners of Reds Trading Post have decided to take their fight to Congress, with the hope of ending the ATF's abuse of gun dealers permanently. Reds Trading Post has organized a Congressional Petition that requests Congress to maintain oversight of the ATF to stop harrassment and abuse of legitmate firearm dealers. There are currently over 5000 signatures on the petition, many of them FFL's/Dealers from all over the country, but many more signatures are needed to get the attention of Congress. Please take a minute to sign the online petition. Your signature really does make a difference. This is the link: http://www.petitiononline.com/redstrad/petition.html I took the time to ask for your help because I love to shoot, and I'll be damned if I lose the ability to pursue my life passion for the simple reason that I did nothing to help support the sport I love. If the ATF succeeds in their mission to shut down dealers, the firearm manufacturers will soon be forced to close as well. Hillary and the Brady's win without even touching the 2nd Amendment. -->

12-22-2007, 07:45 PM	#2
Nighthawk Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Central Texas Posts: 3,330	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE already signed __________________ Our obligations to our country never cease but with our lives." --John Adams, letter to Benjamin Rush, April 18, 1808 NRA Life TSRA Life GOA Member

12-24-2007, 11:26 AM	#3
Marlin TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: At SouthernMoss' side forever! Contributor Posts: 13,853	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE Done !!!! __________________ *The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.* *The only criminal class native to the United States is Congress.*

12-24-2007, 12:09 PM	#4
300 H&H Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,796	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE

12-24-2007, 04:01 PM	#6
ponycar17 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: South Carolina Contributor Posts: 4,884	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE Done...

12-24-2007, 02:52 PM	#5
JohnK3 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,636	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE The ATFE has a history of assuming authority not granted to it by Congress. This is very similar to the way they have harassed and almost destroyed hobby rocketry. They make "rulings" based upon bad science, cite license holders on minor technical charges and there is no penalty to the individual who does so. The agents are ordered by their superiors to engage in this unlawful behavior and the worst thing that can happen to the agent is nothing. NADA. The action is reversed or overruled, but there is no penalty for having made the bad call in the first place. The supervisors know this and tell the agents to continue on with the illegal behavior, because there's nothing to stop them from doing so. What is needed is a serious penalty to an agent AND HIS SUPERVISOR that engages in this sort of behavior. In that way, the ones responsible would find that nobody wants to follow their lead in this behavior, as nobody wants to pay the price for it.

12-24-2007, 05:28 PM	#7
Marlin T Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Mexico Posts: 7,857	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE Done __________________ "But the simple truth--born of experience--is that tyranny thrives best where government need not fear the wrath of an armed people." Judge Alex Kozinski - United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government. - Thomas Paine Did you read todays GOOD shooting? >>>KEEPANDBEARARMS.COM <<<

12-24-2007, 06:10 PM	#8
armedandsafe Former Guest Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Moses Lake, WA Posts: 10,344	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE Number 5224 Pops

12-24-2007, 06:45 PM	#9
berto64 VMBB Admin Staff Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Owyhee County, Idaho Contributor Posts: 7,388	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE 5225 __________________ Be who you are & say what you will, Those that matter won't mind and those that mind don't matter. I'm a bitter clinger, One Nation Under God.

12-25-2007, 05:08 AM	#11
LongRifles Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Live in SD, work in Iraq Posts: 49	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE Signed. #5227 __________________ More than a business This is a lifestyle THE CAR: http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showpos...33&postcount=9

12-26-2007, 03:03 PM	#12
sabashimon Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: PNW/Israel Posts: 672	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE Count me in __________________ "We sleep safely in ours beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." George Orwell "If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." Thomas Paine

12-27-2007, 05:02 PM	#13
JohnK3 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,636	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE LR, you're right in that an overhaul of the entire organization is called for. However, accountability needs to be part and parcel of any overhaul. There has to be SOME penalty for engaging in unlawful/unconstitutional behavior. As it stands, there is NONE. The ATFE (who are no longer a part of the Treasury Dept. but of the DOJustice) doesn't even get symbolic slaps on the hands when they engage in illegal stings, unlawful searches and seizures, blatant misinterpretation of the law, etc, etc, ad infinitum.

12-28-2007, 10:28 PM	#15
travihanson Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Milo, ME Posts: 582	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE Done...5245 __________________ The two loudest sounds in the world are a click when you expect a bang, and a bang when you expect a click.

12-28-2007, 10:31 PM	#16
torpedoman V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: chattaroy wa. Posts: 65	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE alcohol ,tobbaco and firearms> this should be the name fo a convenience store not a federal agency. done probally get my c&r audited __________________ never pull your pistol til the talking is all done. When you pull it shoot. Last edited by torpedoman; 12-28-2007 at 10:35 PM..

12-28-2007, 10:36 PM	#17
bunnyhunter12 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 1,090	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE I was 5247. __________________ Quaerite Prime Regnum Dei~ Official motto of Newfoundland If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government --and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws. -- Edward Abbey in Abbey's Road, p.39 (Plume, 1979) -Smitty

12-29-2007, 06:33 AM	#18
Don Buckbee Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Grayling, MI Posts: 712	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE Done! __________________ Don JPFO NRA Benefactor Member NSSA Life Member

12-30-2007, 11:29 AM	#19
Northalius Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 35	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE Signed. I am 5300. __________________ "Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render even them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree." - Thomas Jefferson "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul $C:\Documents and Settings\STeVe\My Documents\My Pictures\EBDONS.jpg$

01-03-2008, 08:48 PM	#20
delta13soultaker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Depends on Uncle Sam's whim every 3 yrs. Posts: 2,948	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE Signed. When government workers/agents go above and beyond to nitpick paperwork errors...it's an indication of somebody trying to justify his job! __________________ Never say die! "A nation who forgets its defenders is soon forgotten itself." "A good shot must necessarily be a good man since the essence of good marksmanship is self-control and self-control is the essential quality of a good man." – Theodore Roosevelt

01-04-2008, 10:31 AM	#21
cohoskip V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Summer: Chimacum, WA; Winter: Casa Grande, AZ Posts: 189	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE Done - #5321 As a former FFL dealer I am definitely in favor of this. Fortunately I was never harassed by them, but that was 20 years ago... __________________ To err is human, to forgive divine Neither is Marine Corps policy... NRA Life Member

03-08-2008, 09:27 PM	#22
rdowlg Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 19	Re: Petition against ATF abuse NEEDS YOUR SIGNATURE rdowlg 5488