Israel is playing hardball! - The Firearms Forum

Pistolenschutze · 12-23-2007, 10:20 AM

Judging from the recent offer for cease fire by Hamas, it would seem Israel's hardline stance in Gaza is starting to accomplish its purpose. In my humble opinion, Hamas is nothing more than a terrorist group, pure and simple. While ultimate peace in the Middle East is certainly a very desirable goal, not only for Israel but for the world, I don't think that will happen as long as this group exists. Shimon, what are your thoughts?

Olmert Calls Gaza Campaign 'True War'
Sunday, December 23, 2007

Associated Press

JERUSALEM — Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Sunday ruled out cease-fire talks with the Gaza Strip's Islamic Hamas rulers, vowing to press ahead with a "true war" against Palestinian militants who attack southern Israeli communities with rocket and mortar fire.

Meanwhile, a Cabinet minister confirmed that Israel has yet another plan to build hundreds of apartments in disputed east Jerusalem and the West Bank — touching off a new crisis in fledgling peace talks between Israel and the moderate, West Bank-based government of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

The Israeli military has struck hard in recent weeks against Hamas and other armed groups in Gaza. With troops appearing to make substantial gains, Olmert told his Cabinet there were no plans to slow down.

"Operations against terrorists will continue as they have been conducted for many months," Olmert said. "There is no other way to describe what is happening in the Gaza Strip except as a true war between the Israeli army and terror groups."

He said Israel would continue to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza to protect the area's civilians.

Israel sealed its borders with Gaza immediately after Hamas violently wrested control of the territory in June. Israel, which considers Hamas a terrorist group, has cut off most trade and reduced fuel shipments to the area.

RelatedStories
Israel Examines Truce Proposal With Hamas Under heavy pressure from Israel's military gains and the economic embargo, Hamas has signaled readiness in recent days for a cease-fire. Several Israeli Cabinet ministers have said the government should consider the offer.

But Olmert told his Cabinet there would be no cease-fire until Hamas renounced violence and recognized Israel's right to exist — conditions set by the "Quartet" of international peace makers. "This policy will not change," he said.

The "Quartet" consists of the U.S., the European Union, the United Nations and Russia.

In Gaza, Islamic Jihad, the small militant group responsible for most of the rocket fire, said there could not be a cease-fire until Israel "pays for its crimes."

Three rockets were fired at southern Israel on Sunday. No injuries or damage were reported.

Israeli Cabinet ministers, meanwhile, allocated more than $200 million (euro140 million) over the next five years for a missile defense system, known as Iron Dome, being developed by the Israeli Defense Ministry and U.S.-based Raytheon Co.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak, who has said Israel couldn't conduct a major withdrawal from the West Bank before such a system is in place, called it a "national emergency project." The system, which would fire ground-based missiles at incoming rockets, is believed to be several years away from operation.

Amid the backdrop of Hamas truce overtures, Barak will travel to Egypt on Wednesday to meet with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, Israeli security officials said.

Egypt frequently acts as a mediator between Israel and Hamas. It was unclear whether a possible truce would be on the agenda.

Israel's diplomatic efforts to reach a peace deal with Abbas were hurt Sunday with the disclosure that Israel plans to build an additional 740 apartments in disputed east Jerusalem and the West Bank in 2008.

Palestinians claim east Jerusalem and the West Bank, areas captured by Israel in the 1967 Mideast war, as part of their future state.

Some 450,000 Israelis live in these areas, and the timing of Sunday's announcement was sensitive. The two sides formally renewed peace talks after a seven-year break less than one month ago, and President Bush is expected to visit the region next month.

Rafi Eitan, Israel's minister for Jerusalem Affairs, confirmed the Construction Ministry's proposed budget for 2008 includes 500 new apartments for the Har Homa neighborhood in east Jerusalem, and 240 new apartments in Maaleh Adumim, a major West Bank settlement just outside Jerusalem.

Eitan told Army Radio that Israel never promised to halt construction within the municipal borders of Jerusalem, whose eastern sector Israel annexed after capturing in the 1967 Mideast war. Eitan called both areas "integral" parts of Jerusalem.

Olmert spokesman Mark Regev said he was "not aware" of the plan to expand Har Homa and said there was "no new decision" for additional construction in Maaleh Adumim.

The international community never recognized Israeli sovereignty over east Jerusalem. But the area, along with major West Bank settlement blocs, including Maaleh Adumim, are expected to remain in Israeli hands under a final peace settlement.

Under the recently revived "road map" peace plan, Israel committed to freeze all settlement construction. It insists that construction in east Jerusalem and existing settlements is not covered by the peace plan.

Eitan's comments were the third announcement in recent weeks of plans to build in east Jerusalem and the West Bank.

Abbas alleged that the construction projects undermined new peace efforts.

"The negotiations are facing obstacles," Abbas told members of his Fatah Party. "We can't understand these settlement activities at a time we're talking about final-status negotiations."

358 winchester · 12-23-2007, 10:55 AM

How many years has this war been fought ?
I wish I was wrong but I only see the end at the second coming!!
Just my opinion but then I have read both the bible and lots of history books.

Pistolenschutze · 12-23-2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 358 winchester

How many years has this war been fought ?
I wish I was wrong but I only see the end at the second coming!!
Just my opinion but then I have read both the bible and lots of history books.

Ron, this war has been going on since Israel was proclaimed a state in 1948, and to some extent even before that during Britain's mandate of Palestine. It will end, I think, only when--and if--Israel's neighbors finally recognize Israel's simple right to exist as a people and a nation. In the meantime, see Matthew 24:6.

catfish83861 · 12-23-2007, 11:29 AM

Rich, I can only say "Good for the Israelis."

When you have a nation that has existed, peacefully I might add, with the rest of the world just not with those that keep hitting Israel with missiles. I see not a bit of problem with their strategy. Yes, mediation is great, so is offering a carrot here and there. Today Israels "carrot" is a simple message. "Leave us alone and we will not kill you!" Maybe the U.S. of A. needs to pay attention. You don't arbitrate with a snake,you cut its head off. Just my radical redneck thoughts. catfish

Pistolenschutze · 12-23-2007, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catfish83861

Maybe the U.S. of A. needs to pay attention. You don't arbitrate with a snake,you cut its head off. Just my radical redneck thoughts. catfish

Maybe redneck, Cat, but I certainly agree with you. The only rational thing that may be done with a mad dog is kill it.

sabashimon · 12-23-2007, 12:44 PM

You're right Pistol, When Hamas talks "truce", it means whatever Israel is doing is working. The Air Force has succeeded in nailing some of their top guys, with very minimal collateral damage......not an easy thing when they ensconce themselves amongst civilians.
It would be the utmost of follies were Israel to agree to a "Hudna" with an organization that makes no bones about it's ultimate aim.
Unfortunately, since our departure from Gaza, Hamas has built up quite a stash of weapons, and has had the opportunity to prepare itself for the inevitable incursion by the IDF. It will be costly.
We got out of Lebanon, and the rockets continued. We got out of Gaza, and the rockets continue. Does anybody really think that we wouldn't see the same movie if we get out of Judah and Samaria (the West Bank)?
They would then, from a distance of a couple of miles, be able to target airliners coming and going from Ben Gurion Airport, and their rockets would be falling on Tel Aviv.
I'll try to stay off the soapbox here, but suffice to say, anybody who thinks that this conflict is over land or "Palestinian" rights either has their head up their ass, or has another agenda.
(Pardon my French)

catfish83861 · 12-23-2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabashimon

I'll try to stay off the soapbox here, but suffice to say, anybody who thinks that this conflict is over land or "Palestinian" rights either has their head up their ass, or has another agenda.
(Pardon my French)

Please don't worry about getting on or off your soap box. Heck they haven't thrown me off here yet and I regularly get on a soap box for one reason or the other

. Heck sometimes just because I can

. personally and I know I have not one tenth of the knowledge of what goes on over there as you probably do but I stand totally behind my statement that Israel causes no problems for anyone other than those that attack them first. Then unlike our paper tiger they act decisively and with a vengeance. If people would think about the pacification of our Americans over the last 50 years they might wake up. Until they do I fear we are in for some rough times. Some say let the robbers and rapists do what ever they will do and live another day. Well that mentality allowed the destruction of the twin towers and the loss of almost 3000 lives. Had the last flight not reacted to the threat there would have been possibly thousands more lives lost. Had we not backed out of Nam I think things would be a lot different today. Hell of a lot of kids died and were injured there, now we have a government that is attempting to cause the same effect in Iraq as happened in Viet Nam, idiots just don't learn and it certainly is not just limited to the Democrats either. Hey see what I said about a soap box, I'm out of here

. Happy Hanukah to you and yours

. Bob

Pistolenschutze · 12-23-2007, 03:18 PM

Shimon, most of the world would say I'm an extremist for my position, but I think Israel should have stayed in Gaza, and they sure as hell should never give up the Golan Heights . . . nor Jerusalem for that matter. Gestures of peace are all well and good, but the likes of Hamas--and groups like them--understand nothing but naked force.

catfish83861 · 12-23-2007, 04:15 PM

Hey Pistol, Remember my statement about , "Your either on my side on in my sights!" Seems to me that the Israelis have it down pretty dang good also I agree with your comments about the Golan heights and do believe that giving any land up is a mistake period. We gave Viet Nam to the communists. What did it get us?

Yea maybe I am just a radical also, but what I feel about the likes of Hanoi Jane is indeed not what the Lord would like for me to be.

Oh yea also I just sent you an email, probably shouldn't open it with kids in the room.

catfish

Marlin T · 12-23-2007, 06:41 PM

I’m pretty skeptical about what Olmert is going to do this time. Like maybe actually think about; winning. Time will tell I guess. But even in this article it say, “Israel's diplomatic efforts to reach a peace deal…”. I’m wondering why would you even have diplomatic efforts with someone that has a proven track record of first not keeping their word. Second, that organization has in their charter that it is their ultimate goal to wipe you out.

If I were in charge, I would tell all of those in that little strip that one rocket will be retaliated with one random bombing raid of an undetermined amount of ordinances. Two rockets=two bombing runs, three rockets=
Then buy a couple of B-52s

This reminds me of what is happening in the USA and the war that has been declared upon us by the “Allah Akbar, then pull the rip cord and blow themselves up” people.

It seems that those like Olmert and most of the Dems just can’t handle the fact that somebody has declared war on us, the US and other freedom loving countries. They have a track record of continuing to negotiate with those that are duty bound to destroy us.
I just don’t get where this mentality comes from. Except Marlin sig pic that say, Liberalism is a mental disorder. If you think I’m am misguided, PLEASE give me some feedback!

Marlin · 12-24-2007, 10:55 AM

The new book in the set of "Politically Incorrect Guides", on the Middle East, is a real eye opener.

I would recommend it for all to read.

It is available in hardcover from the Conservative Book Club, or soft cover from Amazon.

jim summers · 07-20-2008, 02:21 PM

I have to agree with 358,there will be no peace in the middle east until the second coming of Christ, things will only get worse not better.(thats not my opinion thats a statement of fact from the bible) There may be times here and there the situation over there is peaceful and calm, but those will be short lived.

To Whom Much Is Given, Much Is Required.

12-23-2007, 10:20 AM	#1
Pistolenschutze Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 13,094	Israel is playing hardball! Judging from the recent offer for cease fire by Hamas, it would seem Israel's hardline stance in Gaza is starting to accomplish its purpose. In my humble opinion, Hamas is nothing more than a terrorist group, pure and simple. While ultimate peace in the Middle East is certainly a very desirable goal, not only for Israel but for the world, I don't think that will happen as long as this group exists. Shimon, what are your thoughts? Olmert Calls Gaza Campaign 'True War' Sunday, December 23, 2007 Associated Press JERUSALEM — Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Sunday ruled out cease-fire talks with the Gaza Strip's Islamic Hamas rulers, vowing to press ahead with a "true war" against Palestinian militants who attack southern Israeli communities with rocket and mortar fire. Meanwhile, a Cabinet minister confirmed that Israel has yet another plan to build hundreds of apartments in disputed east Jerusalem and the West Bank — touching off a new crisis in fledgling peace talks between Israel and the moderate, West Bank-based government of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. The Israeli military has struck hard in recent weeks against Hamas and other armed groups in Gaza. With troops appearing to make substantial gains, Olmert told his Cabinet there were no plans to slow down. "Operations against terrorists will continue as they have been conducted for many months," Olmert said. "There is no other way to describe what is happening in the Gaza Strip except as a true war between the Israeli army and terror groups." He said Israel would continue to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza to protect the area's civilians. Israel sealed its borders with Gaza immediately after Hamas violently wrested control of the territory in June. Israel, which considers Hamas a terrorist group, has cut off most trade and reduced fuel shipments to the area. RelatedStories Israel Examines Truce Proposal With Hamas Under heavy pressure from Israel's military gains and the economic embargo, Hamas has signaled readiness in recent days for a cease-fire. Several Israeli Cabinet ministers have said the government should consider the offer. But Olmert told his Cabinet there would be no cease-fire until Hamas renounced violence and recognized Israel's right to exist — conditions set by the "Quartet" of international peace makers. "This policy will not change," he said. The "Quartet" consists of the U.S., the European Union, the United Nations and Russia. In Gaza, Islamic Jihad, the small militant group responsible for most of the rocket fire, said there could not be a cease-fire until Israel "pays for its crimes." Three rockets were fired at southern Israel on Sunday. No injuries or damage were reported. Israeli Cabinet ministers, meanwhile, allocated more than $200 million (euro140 million) over the next five years for a missile defense system, known as Iron Dome, being developed by the Israeli Defense Ministry and U.S.-based Raytheon Co. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak, who has said Israel couldn't conduct a major withdrawal from the West Bank before such a system is in place, called it a "national emergency project." The system, which would fire ground-based missiles at incoming rockets, is believed to be several years away from operation. Amid the backdrop of Hamas truce overtures, Barak will travel to Egypt on Wednesday to meet with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, Israeli security officials said. Egypt frequently acts as a mediator between Israel and Hamas. It was unclear whether a possible truce would be on the agenda. Israel's diplomatic efforts to reach a peace deal with Abbas were hurt Sunday with the disclosure that Israel plans to build an additional 740 apartments in disputed east Jerusalem and the West Bank in 2008. Palestinians claim east Jerusalem and the West Bank, areas captured by Israel in the 1967 Mideast war, as part of their future state. Some 450,000 Israelis live in these areas, and the timing of Sunday's announcement was sensitive. The two sides formally renewed peace talks after a seven-year break less than one month ago, and President Bush is expected to visit the region next month. Rafi Eitan, Israel's minister for Jerusalem Affairs, confirmed the Construction Ministry's proposed budget for 2008 includes 500 new apartments for the Har Homa neighborhood in east Jerusalem, and 240 new apartments in Maaleh Adumim, a major West Bank settlement just outside Jerusalem. Eitan told Army Radio that Israel never promised to halt construction within the municipal borders of Jerusalem, whose eastern sector Israel annexed after capturing in the 1967 Mideast war. Eitan called both areas "integral" parts of Jerusalem. Olmert spokesman Mark Regev said he was "not aware" of the plan to expand Har Homa and said there was "no new decision" for additional construction in Maaleh Adumim. The international community never recognized Israeli sovereignty over east Jerusalem. But the area, along with major West Bank settlement blocs, including Maaleh Adumim, are expected to remain in Israeli hands under a final peace settlement. Under the recently revived "road map" peace plan, Israel committed to freeze all settlement construction. It insists that construction in east Jerusalem and existing settlements is not covered by the peace plan. Eitan's comments were the third announcement in recent weeks of plans to build in east Jerusalem and the West Bank. Abbas alleged that the construction projects undermined new peace efforts. "The negotiations are facing obstacles," Abbas told members of his Fatah Party. "We can't understand these settlement activities at a time we're talking about final-status negotiations." __________________ --Pistolenschutze (Pistol Shooter) -->

12-23-2007, 10:55 AM	#2
358 winchester TFF Admin Staff Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Pensacola Fl. area Posts: 7,335	Re: Israel is playing hardball! How many years has this war been fought ? I wish I was wrong but I only see the end at the second coming!! Just my opinion but then I have read both the bible and lots of history books. __________________ Administrator & Owner RangeDay.com Proud, White, Heterosexual, Gun Owning, Southern American, Christian. Any question about where I stand?

12-23-2007, 11:29 AM	#4
catfish83861 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Idaho Posts: 2,019	Re: Israel is playing hardball! Rich, I can only say "Good for the Israelis." When you have a nation that has existed, peacefully I might add, with the rest of the world just not with those that keep hitting Israel with missiles. I see not a bit of problem with their strategy. Yes, mediation is great, so is offering a carrot here and there. Today Israels "carrot" is a simple message. "Leave us alone and we will not kill you!" Maybe the U.S. of A. needs to pay attention. You don't arbitrate with a snake,you cut its head off. Just my radical redneck thoughts. catfish __________________ 'Bravery is being the only one who knows you're afraid.' - David Hackworth

12-23-2007, 12:44 PM	#6
sabashimon Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: PNW/Israel Posts: 672	Re: Israel is playing hardball! You're right Pistol, When Hamas talks "truce", it means whatever Israel is doing is working. The Air Force has succeeded in nailing some of their top guys, with very minimal collateral damage......not an easy thing when they ensconce themselves amongst civilians. It would be the utmost of follies were Israel to agree to a "Hudna" with an organization that makes no bones about it's ultimate aim. Unfortunately, since our departure from Gaza, Hamas has built up quite a stash of weapons, and has had the opportunity to prepare itself for the inevitable incursion by the IDF. It will be costly. We got out of Lebanon, and the rockets continued. We got out of Gaza, and the rockets continue. Does anybody really think that we wouldn't see the same movie if we get out of Judah and Samaria (the West Bank)? They would then, from a distance of a couple of miles, be able to target airliners coming and going from Ben Gurion Airport, and their rockets would be falling on Tel Aviv. I'll try to stay off the soapbox here, but suffice to say, anybody who thinks that this conflict is over land or "Palestinian" rights either has their head up their ass, or has another agenda. (Pardon my French) __________________ "We sleep safely in ours beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." George Orwell "If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." Thomas Paine

12-23-2007, 03:18 PM	#8
Pistolenschutze Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 13,094	Re: Israel is playing hardball! Shimon, most of the world would say I'm an extremist for my position, but I think Israel should have stayed in Gaza, and they sure as hell should never give up the Golan Heights . . . nor Jerusalem for that matter. Gestures of peace are all well and good, but the likes of Hamas--and groups like them--understand nothing but naked force. __________________ --Pistolenschutze (Pistol Shooter)

12-23-2007, 04:15 PM	#9
catfish83861 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Idaho Posts: 2,019	Re: Israel is playing hardball! Hey Pistol, Remember my statement about , "Your either on my side on in my sights!" Seems to me that the Israelis have it down pretty dang good also I agree with your comments about the Golan heights and do believe that giving any land up is a mistake period. We gave Viet Nam to the communists. What did it get us? Yea maybe I am just a radical also, but what I feel about the likes of Hanoi Jane is indeed not what the Lord would like for me to be. Oh yea also I just sent you an email, probably shouldn't open it with kids in the room. catfish __________________ 'Bravery is being the only one who knows you're afraid.' - David Hackworth

12-23-2007, 06:41 PM	#10
Marlin T Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Mexico Posts: 7,857	Re: Israel is playing hardball! I’m pretty skeptical about what Olmert is going to do this time. Like maybe actually think about; winning. Time will tell I guess. But even in this article it say, “Israel's diplomatic efforts to reach a peace deal…”. I’m wondering why would you even have diplomatic efforts with someone that has a proven track record of first not keeping their word. Second, that organization has in their charter that it is their ultimate goal to wipe you out. If I were in charge, I would tell all of those in that little strip that one rocket will be retaliated with one random bombing raid of an undetermined amount of ordinances. Two rockets=two bombing runs, three rockets= Then buy a couple of B-52s This reminds me of what is happening in the USA and the war that has been declared upon us by the “Allah Akbar, then pull the rip cord and blow themselves up” people. It seems that those like Olmert and most of the Dems just can’t handle the fact that somebody has declared war on us, the US and other freedom loving countries. They have a track record of continuing to negotiate with those that are duty bound to destroy us. I just don’t get where this mentality comes from. Except Marlin sig pic that say, Liberalism is a mental disorder. If you think I’m am misguided, PLEASE give me some feedback! __________________ "But the simple truth--born of experience--is that tyranny thrives best where government need not fear the wrath of an armed people." Judge Alex Kozinski - United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government. - Thomas Paine Did you read todays GOOD shooting? >>>KEEPANDBEARARMS.COM <<< Last edited by Marlin T; 12-23-2007 at 06:42 PM..

12-24-2007, 10:55 AM	#11
Marlin TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: At SouthernMoss' side forever! Contributor Posts: 13,854	Re: Israel is playing hardball! The new book in the set of "Politically Incorrect Guides", on the Middle East, is a real eye opener. I would recommend it for all to read. It is available in hardcover from the Conservative Book Club, or soft cover from Amazon. __________________ *The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.* *The only criminal class native to the United States is Congress.*

07-20-2008, 02:21 PM	#12
jim summers Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: I reside in southern Indiana, you can almost step out of my back door and be setting on Patoka Lake Posts: 1,058	Re: Israel is playing hardball! I have to agree with 358,there will be no peace in the middle east until the second coming of Christ, things will only get worse not better.(thats not my opinion thats a statement of fact from the bible) There may be times here and there the situation over there is peaceful and calm, but those will be short lived. To Whom Much Is Given, Much Is Required.