Vet disarmament act ramifications

[Marlin T]

Q&A On The Veterans Disarmament Act
-- How the new law will affect you and where we go from here

Gun Owners of America E-Mail Alert
8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151
Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408
http://www.gunowners.org

Tuesday, January 8, 2008


As most Americans were preparing for the Christmas holidays last
month, the U.S. Congress pulled another fast one when only few people
were watching.

It was December 19. Most Congressmen had left town and were either
at the airport or in the air returning home. They weren't in
Washington, DC, because their party leadership had told them that all
the major votes were over... that the only legislative business left
related to non-controversial issues, such as when Congress would
return from Christmas break, etc.

But it was then, with most of the Congress gone, that the House and
Senate passed the Veterans Disarmament Act without a recorded vote.
It was a huge deja vu, as this was the method that a previous
Democratic Congress used -- together with compliant Republicans -- to
pass the original Brady Law in 1993.


WHO IS TO BLAME?

In the fury that resulted from this "fast one," many Americans have
wanted to blame the entire lot of them... all 535 congressmen. And,
to be sure, there is an extent to which they all share some blame.

But to be fair, no one congressmen can camp out on the floor of the
House or Senate chambers, every day, 24/7. It's a physical
impossibility, which is why members of each party rely on their
leadership to protect their interests and keep them informed. And
that's where the betrayal occurred.

No Unanimous Consent agreement can pass the House or Senate without
the leaders of both parties signing off. And on December 19, the
leaders of each party sent their members home for the Christmas
holidays, while forging Unanimous Consent agreements in each chamber.

As such, the immediate ire should be directed at the following
legislators: Democrats such as Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi
(D-CA) and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV); Republicans such
as House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) and Senate Minority
Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY).

Obviously, the backers of the Veterans Disarmament Act should be held
to account, as well. Most of the lead sponsors were Democrats --
such as Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) and Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY).

But there were a few key Republicans who helped cosponsor the
legislation: Representatives Michael Castle (DE), Christopher Shays
(CT) and Lamar Smith (TX). And dishonorable mention goes to Tom
Price of Georgia who was physically present on the House floor on
December 19. It was Rep. Price who asked for the Unanimous Consent
agreement to pass the Veterans Disarmament Act without a vote.

Finally, many of you know that Senator Tom Coburn (R-OK) held up the
bill in the Senate for several months. His intentions were laudable
as he desperately wanted to protect Second Amendment rights and cut
unconstitutional spending.

Unfortunately, not one pro-gun senator chose to stand with Coburn...
not one. In fact, GOA felt just as alone as Coburn did. While two
veterans groups (and several pro-gun state groups) sided with us, GOA
was the only pro-gun group at the federal level that actively fought
this legislation week after week, while another and bigger
organization was working behind the scenes to help pass the Veterans
Disarmament Act.

Standing alone, Senator Coburn decided to negotiate for a better
bill. GOA was asked for input and made a few contributions to the
bill, but not enough to justify support for the Veterans Disarmament
Act.

Add to this fact that GOA was prevented from seeing the final version
of the bill before the brokered Schumer-Coburn compromise was taken
to the floor under a Unanimous Consent agreement.

As a result, Senator Coburn spoke in favor of the compromise bill on
the floor of the Senate -- something that was a huge mistake, for
many of the glaring problems with the bill still remained untouched.

So chalk up a victory for Chuck Schumer... and for Carolyn McCarthy
as well, as she told CBS News, "This is the best Christmas present I
could ever receive."


WHAT DOES THE BILL DO IN GENERAL?

It would be a mistake to under-react -- or over-react -- to the
passage of the Veterans Disarmament Act. On the bad side, this bill
statutorily validates BATF regulations which could potentially disarm
millions of Americans. This is a VERY DANGEROUS turn of events which
will have huge ramifications over the next several decades.

The extent to which its unconstitutional potential will be realized
will be clear only over time -- and perhaps a long time -- and will
depend on whether pro-gunners or anti-gunners are in power. For
example, it took a full thirty years for language in the 1968 Gun
Control Act to be used to disarm veterans.

On the other hand, GOA was able to secure a few modest concessions
which should provide some protection to gun owners -- though NOT
NEARLY ENOUGH PROTECTION TO JUSTIFY SUPPORT of this bill.

So having said that, what are the implications of this legislation
for Americans with psychiatric diagnoses?

Although we succeeded in forcing the deletion of the ratification of
the BATF regulations, per se, section 101 (c) (1) (C) contains new
language which could make you a "prohibited person" (unable
to own a
gun) based solely on a medical finding (by a psychiatrist or
psychologist), provided:

* That you had "an opportunity for a hearing by a court, board,
commission or other lawful authority"; and

* In the future, that you had notice that you would be made a
"prohibited person" as a result of the agency action (section
101 (c)
(3)). [NOTE: This was added pursuant to negotiations over GOA's
objections to the bill.]

However, even these modest gains have severe limitations. Up to
140,000 veterans had their gun rights taken away as a result of a
diagnosis of a mental disorder such as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
(PTSD). But this new law does not require two important things for
those 140,000 people:

1. The new law does not require that a veteran needed to have any
knowledge of the ramifications of the "diagnosis" in the past
-- and
the fact that this diagnosis could disarm him or her for life. How
many veterans suffering from PTSD simply went to Veterans Affairs,
hoping to get treatment, but now face a lifetime gun ban because of
the new law?

2. Also, the act does not require that the disarmed vets even knew
they had a right to appeal their diagnosis. Many of the 140,000
Americans who have now lost their Second Amendment rights first
received a letter from Veterans Affairs telling them that, due to
their diagnosis, a "guardian" was being appointed for them to
handle
their affairs. As stated above, how many vets realized that this
action would deem them as "mental defective" under the 1968 Gun
Control Act and strip them of their gun rights?

Moreover, how many vets realized they could challenge this action by
appealing the diagnosis? If they didn't realize the significance of
this VA letter, most likely, the vets did nothing, as they were more
concerned with getting the monetary benefits that such a diagnosis
would bring. But, whether they knew these things or not, this new
law would still validate the removal of their Second Amendment
rights.


HOW WILL THE BILL AFFECT ME?

If you have been subject to a psychological or psychiatric diagnosis,
the following may be helpful:

* A diagnosis by your private doctor -- with no government
involvement -- will probably cause you no problems.

* The biggest danger remains the danger for veterans. Although the
language of this bill could conceivably disarm adults who were
diagnosed as kids with ADHD in connection with the IDEA program,
seniors on Medicare with Alzheimers, etc., we know of no active
efforts to disarm persons in these cases -- yet.

* The likelihood that new classes of people will be disarmed will be
directly related to the ease of accomplishing this though a computer
keyboard. If your file exists only on microfiche in a dusty basement
cabinet, you are relatively safe for now -- although, keep in mind,
the new law calls for monies to be spent on collecting and updating
records like this.

* Obviously, the question of whether a gun hater or Second Amendment
supporter is in the White House on January 20, 2009, will have a lot
to do with how vigorously this new statute is enforced.


WHAT CAN I DO IF I'M ILLEGITIMATELY PROHIBITED FROM BUYING A GUN?

In the unlikely event that you can get your diagnosis "set aside,"
"expunged," or found to no longer exist, you can regain your
rights.
[See section 101(c)(1)(A)&(B).]

The McClure-Volkmer "relief from disabilities" provisions
which have
been blocked by sponsor Schumer for 15 years have been reinstated and
expanded -- so that they will now exist in the broader range of state
and federal agencies which this bill will allow to make you a
prohibited person. Pursuant to negotiations over GOA's objections,
we were able to secure very modest improvements which:

* Would allow you to sue to get your rights restored if the agency
sat on your appeal for 365 days;

* Would allow you to get your legal fees if you prevail against the
agency in court;

* Would prevent Schumer from defunding these efforts in the same way
he defunded McClure-Volkmer -- by requiring the 3% of state funds
under this bill be used for these "relief from disabilities"
programs.

But here's the major loophole in all of this. What minimal gains
were granted by the "right hand" are taken away by the
"left."
Section 105 provides a process for some Americans diagnosed with
so-called mental disabilities to get their rights restored in the
state where they live. But then, in subsection (a)(2), the bill
stipulates that such relief may occur only if "the person will not be
likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety and that the
GRANTING OF THE RELIEF WOULD NOT BE CONTRARY TO THE PUBLIC INTEREST."
(Emphasis added.)

This language sounds similar to those state codes (like California's)
that have "may issue" concealed carry laws -- where citizens
"technically" have the right to carry, but state law only says that
sheriffs MAY ISSUE them a permit to carry. When given such leeway,
those sheriffs usually don't grant the permits!

As we have predicted before: liberal states -- the same states that
took these people's rights away -- will treat almost every person who
has been illegitimately denied as a danger to society and claim that
granting relief would be "contrary to the public interest."


WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

GOA is devising strategies with House and Senate members to restore
veterans' rights. Please stay tuned.


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[MOS0311]

I wanna see you take away a Marine's rifle. Apparently those idiots never heard of the Rifle Creed.

I havent heard of any case of veterans going on killing sprees. Its always the damn troubled kids. If you take from veterans you're as anti American as you can be.

[Tom Militano]

Well said. I was in the Corps from 1959 to 1963, so I'm just a little older than you.

[glocknut]

Its seems like the government never misses an opportunity to create more Carl Dregas.....

mike
gn

[MOS0311]

Originally Posted by Tom Militano

Well said. I was in the Corps from 1959 to 1963, so I'm just a little older than you.

OOORAH Sir!

[islenos]

I am amazed at how many Marines are not only able to type but have a fair understanding of computers.

[Jay]

Some of us ........ nope, changed my mind.

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by MOS0311

I wanna see you take away a Marine's rifle. Apparently those idiots never heard of the Rifle Creed.

I havent heard of any case of veterans going on killing sprees. Its always the damn troubled kids. If you take from veterans you're as anti American as you can be.

Seems to me, out of the percentage of the population most qualified to carry a weapon, a very big portion must include combat vets of every branch.

[USMC-03]

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

Seems to me, out of the percentage of the population most qualified to carry a weapon, a very big portion must include combat vets of every branch.

But don't you understand, Delta? You military types are nothing but indiscriminate killers and rapists with bad table manners!

Oh, wait...

[Pistolenschutze]

I would trust any currently serving or honorable discharged veteran--even Delta --with a firearm long, long, long before I would trust any liberal politician! Of course, if I had a girlfriend, and Delta were around, I would be inclined to keep a close eye on him.

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by USMC-03

But don't you understand, Delta? You military types are nothing but indiscriminate killers and rapists with bad table manners!

Oh, wait...

Well taking my guns wouldn't keep me from killing. In the military, especially this last several years, we get exposed to all kinds of improvised methods of making people dead. Things like the airbag in your steering wheel; door remote in your pocket; your gas grill; even your cell phone...are potentially components to far better mass casualty producing weapons than a gun.

Ya know? Let 'em think about that next time we're raping the horses and riding off on the women without excusing ourselves from the table.

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

I would trust any currently serving or honorable discharged veteran--even Delta --with a firearm long, long, long before I would trust any liberal politician! Of course, if I had a girlfriend, and Delta were around, I would be inclined to keep a close eye on him.

But Pistol...I'm a gynochologist I understand your concern though...caution comes with age, they say. Ya been around so long your social security number only has 7 numbers

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

But Pistol...I'm a gynochologist I understand your concern though...caution comes with age, they say. Ya been around so long your social security number only has 7 numbers

You know, Delta, I hear they are looking for a few good men to disarm IEDs in Iraq and Afghanistan. Have you considered volunteering?

[ponycar17]

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

Seems to me, out of the percentage of the population most qualified to carry a weapon, a very big portion must include combat vets of every branch.

We may be seeing just the tip of the iceberg in the new wave of gun control... It seems that blatant attempts to ban guns don't sit well with most common-sense Americans. The politicians have gone after the gun makers and ammunition suppliers... And in this case, they've gone after the gun makers by limiting their buyers...

Think about it, ex-military has to be a large portion of gun buyers...

California has made it cost-prohibitive for gun makers to supply their goods, and have even gone after the ammunition manufacturers with this anti-lead BS...

This is just another wave... Maybe I'm just theorizing, but it's scary to think that it may be true, and probably will have a major effect unless we stand up to them by voting them out of office.

Back door gun control through the application of economic principles... It stinks!

[AL MOUNT]

Originally Posted by MOS0311

I wanna see you take away a Marine's rifle. .

Oh now Jarhead...you know you'd give anybody yer M-14......


Bayonet first.......that is.....

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

You know, Delta, I hear they are looking for a few good men to disarm IEDs in Iraq and Afghanistan. Have you considered volunteering?

Was is "volunteering"?

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

Was is "volunteering"?

Military volunteering: The top kick says, "I have a detail. I want you, you, and you."

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Military volunteering: The top kick says, "I have a detail. I want you, you, and you."

The dreaded but frequent "Hey you!". lol

I thought you meant to actually request do some work Wouldn't that be funny

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

I thought you meant to actually request do some work Wouldn't that be funny

BTDT. Volunteering is good for the soul, but in the military it can get you the old BOHICA routine.

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

BTDT. Volunteering is good for the soul, but in the military it can get you the old BOHICA routine.

Ever notice, the more reasons and explanations ya give a young fella in the military, branch don't matter, to not volunteer for something, the faster he will go get in the middle of it. lol

[MOS0311]

Originally Posted by AL MOUNT

Oh now Jarhead...you know you'd give anybody yer M-14......


Bayonet first.......that is.....

oh you almost got me going
I'll use that phrase now, its pretty good.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

Ever notice, the more reasons and explanations ya give a young fella in the military, branch don't matter, to not volunteer for something, the faster he will go get in the middle of it. lol

Yup, and it usually only takes a cherry once to see the error of his ways.

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Yup, and it usually only takes a cherry once to see the error of his ways.

Some insist on being cherries longer than others

[Danny]

iF THE GOVERNMENT WOULD EVEN CONSIDER SUCH AN ACT THAN IT WOULD REFLECT ON MILITARY MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE SEEING COUNCIL OR DOCTORS FOR PTDS AND THEY INTURN COULD NOT CARRY A WEAPON.WHAT ARE THEY GONNA DUE,BE ON KP THEIR WHOLE TOUR?I THINK THEY WOULD AUTOMATICALLY BE RELEASED UNDER A MEDICAL DISCHARGE AND BE ELIGIBLE FOR INSTANT COMPENSATION.

HERE SOLDIER GO PATROL THE PERIMITER,DO NOT TOUCH THE CLAYMORES AND HAND OVER YOUR PISTOL,KNIFE AND M-16.HERES A NIGHT STICK IF YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS?
WHAT A CROCK OF CRAP!THE GOVERNMENT IS CUTTING THEIR OWN THROATS AND DON'T KNOW IT!
DANNY
PS:THIS ALSO APPLIES TO OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT,SECURITY GUARDS OR ANY PUBLIC SERVENT THAT IS ARMED AND IS HAVIND A LITTLE MENTAL PROBLEM.LIKE I SAID,THEY ARE OPENING A CAN OF WORMS,THE BIG DUMMIES.

[delta13soultaker]

"The Lautenberg Amendment to the Gun Control Act of 1968, effective 30 September 1996, makes it a felony for those convicted of misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence to ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms or ammunition. The Amendment also makes it a felony to transfer a firearm or ammunition to an individual known, or reasonably believed, to have such a conviction. Soldiers are not exempt from the Lautenberg Amendment."

Sometimes the Lautenberg Amendment is arguably a good thing, assuming the offender won't use a different weapon. (Ax, machete, hammer, truck, ball bat etc)

But I've seen several Soldiers seperated from service because of the Lautenberg Amendment, both males and females, and some were just unnecessary. Bottom line though, if convicted of domestic violence, a service member can't really have a choice most times but to be chaptered out.

Seen a female get charges pressed on her for clawing up the face of her cheating husband, and this effected her career to the point she left the Army. The ironic thing was we were in Europe, her husband in the meantime went back to the US, so the situation was not one where she would harm him again, but the law said she couldn't carry her sidearm thus she was through as an MP. One guy who comes to mind, argueing with his wife, held her against her will during an arguement trying to keep her from going back to the guy she was messing with, left bruises on her arms, charges pressed and guess what happened. This could happen to any reasonable person in the wrong situation. (If you've been in a very bad relationship you know what I mean.) He was a smart guy, took a hint, left his sorry wife alone, but his career was over long before his divorce was.

Anyway, if you think the military won't kick out quality people for federal laws like the one above you are fooling yourself.

[Pistolenschutze]

What we really need in this country is a "Politicians Rhetoric Control Act." Make anyone running for or holding a political office financially and criminally liable for any untruthful or misleading utterance, 5 years and a $50,000 fine for each such occurrence. Let's see, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, Barak Obama--hell, just about everyone in public office--would end up bankrupt and in prison for the next 1,000 years.