"Instructional People"

[Crpdeth]

There are two men who are a huge part of my life, one being an uncle who I hunt/trap with, we both love to cook for family parties and just hang out...The other is a friend of almost 20 years now, we've been through a lot together, I recall putting my life on the line for him and I know he would do the same for me, we also hunt and trap together and spend time just hanging out knocking back a few beers and shooting pool.

Both of these guys are super smart, but for some reason they feel the need to be a bit blind to the fact that people know how to do the simple things in life without their help.

I'll give two examples, both times I had finally gotten a belly full and said something about it. My uncle and I had just gotten through packaging a hog that we killed and he says to me as I get ready to wash up, "here's the hot side, just get the water what ever temperature you want it and there's the soap...." My response was that "I know how to wash my hands dude!" and it ended laughingly and all that, but I'm sure through the course of the hunt and the processing that I had heard about all I could stand and I really wish I had driven home the fact that it is starting to get real damn old.

Another time, and most recent, I was helping my friend, we were driving through a town I was unfamiliar with so the "turn here and turn there stuff" is expected and certainly necessary, but later, on the way home I hit "Go Home" on the GPS and it was dark, so the fact that I HAD DIRECTIONS NOW was illuminating the interior and totally obvious...But it didn't stop my narrator friend...I put up with it until he says "just ease around this corner here" WTF? I thought my head was going to explode as I said "Dude! If I don't, we are going to plow through that freaking building!" Again the situation dissolves in laughter, but I'm left wishing that a point was made.

I'm the type of person who will ask for help and opinions when needed, I'm really not afraid to ask, I would rather do something the right way, the safe way, and get done a soon as possible, maybe that's why I surround myself with intelligent people, but although I'm not the smartest person you will ever meet (or even close) I do know how to drive and I do know how to wash my damn hands.

Do you think this problem is something that people cant control? I mean, I know they have been told in the past (by their wives) to "stop being bossy" so certainly they have an idea that what they are doing is silly, but perhaps they cant stop? I dunno...

I am afraid that it will wind up eventually destroying a friendship...That's what I'm afraid of, because both of these men are good people, either one of them would come running, right now, at 11:30 at night if I picked up the phone with a problem and I'd do the same for them in a heartbeat, but I just wonder how long I can take it.

[Smoky14]

Patience Donny, Patience. We old folk actually get worse with age so you young'ens have to remember to be kind.
Smoky the elder

[USMC-03]

In much the same vein, when I was a teenager my grandfather, who was a butcher, began teaching me the trade. I was something of a reluctant student and although I never went into the meat industry, I really did learn some great life lessons and was able to spend a lot of time with one of the most wonderful men I've ever known.

I am one of those mutant left hander's and one thing that drove me up the proverbial wall was my grandfather's insistence that he had to learn to do things left handed in order to teach me. His efforts were actually very inept and accomplished little more than confusing me. I told him on far more than one occasion to just show me how he did things and let me figure out the rest but he persisted. At the time he seemed to view being left handed a handicap, and considering the time he grew up, when most left handed people were forced to be right handed, maybe he did. It doesn't matter.

I'm very glad that even then I could see my grandfather was doing it out of love for me and I was hugely fortunate to have him in my life as long as I did. Now that I'm long way from adolescence and can look back with a bit more understanding, I've come to realize he was not trying to learn how to perform tasks left handed just to be able to teach me. To a small degree it was so he could understand me better, his way of being closer. But I have come to believe that the biggest part of his efforts were just for the sake of learning something new. It was a small way to keep the mind fresh and life interesting.

Even though he frustrated me to no end at the time, I think my grandfather taught me more than I may ever realize.

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by Smoky14

Patience Donny, Patience. We old folk actually get worse with age so you young'ens have to remember to be kind.
Smoky the elder

Yeah, yeah...

Originally Posted by USMC-03

Even though he frustrated me to no end at the time, I think my grandfather taught me more than I may ever realize.

I'm with you on this...These two guys have taught me more (hands on, real world stuff) than I'd ever comprehend from a book. I also feel that I am fortunate to have them in my life, but at 37 years of age you do finally start getting pissed off about it.

Crpdeth

[USMC-03]

Originally Posted by Crpdeth

I'm with you on this...These two guys have taught me more (hands on, real world stuff) than I'd ever comprehend from a book. I also feel that I am fortunate to have them in my life, but at 37 years of age you do finally start getting pissed off about it.

Understood, but appreciate them while you can. At just shy of 42 I miss both my grandfathers more every day and realize how lucky I was to have them.

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by USMC-03

Understood, but appreciate them while you can. At just shy of 42 I miss both my grandfathers more every day and realize how lucky I was to have them.

I really do appreciate them, more than I could express here, in fact that is the biggest thing that is pissing me off (and the reason I took the time to vent on this board) because I know that a person can only take so much before distancing himself.

The truth is (in my opinion), that even though they probably don't realize it, that it is condescending to constantly give instruction concerning simple day to day things... I'm left with the feeling "Do you think I'm a freaking twelve year old here?"

I'm really wondering if it is kind of a "disorder thing" that they cant help.

Crpdeth

[armedandsafe]

Sometimes, we just have to say things out loud to prove that we really DO remember things more than 5 minutes.

Pops

[AL MOUNT]

I have a couple friends the same way.

They probably hated their fathers for doing the same thing.

It's just a personality quirk....try to overlook it.

It might have been their mothers that constantly corrected them.

It's like an uncontrollably twitch......no big deal.....they probably aren't even aware their doing it.....

[BillP]

Sociology lesson:
With men giving/taking instruction is a dominant/submissive thing really an adult/child or "super adult/adult thing. A "super adult" is an adult in a superior position, like a boss, police officer or doctor. Most older men understand this and forgo giving directions or mix in questions like "how do you do it? or will it work this way?" to avoid the invertible "pissing match". Some don't and it may be an unconscious way of retaining a dominant position or they just don't get it.

Women on the other hand seem to regard it as nothing more than conversation which they are duty bound to keep going. That explains why they think nothing about giving you directions on a drive you have made hundreds of times.

[Texman]

I think we can all relate.. my dad was also a butcher in his early life and engineer in later life till retirement.. Sometimes he just drove me nuts with "got to be done this way"..
But I would give anything to have him back for one more day to remind me how to do something..

I often times remember something he told me and will think or say,, "yep, Daddy I remember"

[Bruce FLinch]

My Mother in Law is a bit like that. She is not the smartest person, but she is so kind. She just wants people to learn from her mistakes. I say if you laugh at it, you can live with it. So when she starts getting on my nerves, I make a joke about it & pretend to disagree. She starts laughing & stops giving advice.

I'd say you're lucky to have 2 close buddies. We all have our faults.

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by BillP

Sociology lesson:
With men giving/taking instruction is a dominant/submissive thing really an adult/child or "super adult/adult thing. A "super adult" is an adult in a superior position, like a boss, police officer or doctor. Most older men understand this and forgo giving directions or mix in questions like "how do you do it? or will it work this way?" to avoid the invertible "pissing match". Some don't and it may be an unconscious way of retaining a dominant position or they just don't get it.

No offence to anyone making the other responses, but this is what I wanted to know...Thanks, Bill.

Sociology, huh? Certainly sounds like a subject I would enjoy studying and it makes a lot of sense, although I'm left wondering why a man would feel the need to be "dominate" over a long time friend who is closer than any brother either of them have. At the same time I know that I am FAR from submissive, so the two traits (is that the right word?) mix like oil and water. At the same time, as stated before, I don't mind taking instruction at all, if I asked for it....

I've had a little experience training dogs in the past and this kind of reminds me of the way one dog would place his paw on the back of another dog to show dominance.

Originally Posted by Bruce FLinch

I'd say you're lucky to have 2 close buddies. We all have our faults.

Truer words have not been spoken Bruce, I am indeed lucky, Somehow I became friends with a very small group of guys many years ago and we have all stuck like glue, I don't know why, but many people come and go, in your life and then every so often someone comes along and you just kind of click...Stranger still is the way this small group gets along as a whole.

Indeed we all have our faults and one of mine may very well be that whole "Inability to be submissive" thing that Bill and I are talking about, hell I am half the problem, but I don't think I can do anything about it...I intend to attempt a research on Sociology, partly because I'm intrigued, but I really don't think there is enough knowledge out there to change who I am.

Originally Posted by AL MOUNT

....try to overlook it.

Again, I wonder if "overlooking it" for another 20 years is even possible, especially as I get older... Is it any more possible than them taking a hint and changing?

Good topic here guys, thanks for sharing it with me.

Crpdeth

[Crpdeth]

Since were talking about old friends...I guess I'll take a break from the serious stuff for a moment and post pictures of a few of us shooting pool tonight. We had a really good time even before the wet t-shirt contest (wont bore you with those shots), Sometimes you need to get out with friends and forget your worries and heartaches and just live for a few hours.

Here's to good friends...

[JohnK3]

Originally Posted by Crpdeth

Since were talking about old friends...I guess I'll take a break from the serious stuff and post pictures of a few of us shooting pool tonight. We had a really good time even before the wet t-shirt contest (wont bore you with those shots), Sometimes you need to get out with friends and forget your worries and heartaches and just live for a few hours.

Here's to good friends...

No, go ahead! Bore us!

[Crpdeth]

I dont wanna get fired...Check your PM's.

Crpdeth

[user]

Originally Posted by BillP

Sociology lesson:
With men giving/taking instruction is a dominant/submissive thing really an adult/child or "super adult/adult thing. ...

If I may say so with all respect, no doubt there are people like that, but to generalize to all "instructional people" is just plain hogwash.

I'm one of those people. It's part of the reason I became an attorney, that way other people pay me to solve their problems for them. But in my experience, it's the people who are afraid they're not dominant and who see life as a tension between submission and dominance who want to characterize what I do as a dominance or control thing.

But I have observed that there are lots of people who, because of their own psychological damage, can't help but see relationships in terms of dominance and control. And I have learned not to try to help people like that, because they're in victim mode and are like dogs that have been kicked once too often. Even when you try to be kind to them, they'll bite you. Or as Jesus put it, "cast not your pearls before swine, lest they trample your pearls underfoot and turn to gore you."

My suggestion is, think about what people tell you; if they're right, do what they say - it's not a surrender of control on your part, it's an acquisition of control. You gain control of yourself because you're deciding what to do on the basis of the information you have available. And if it seems to you that they're wrong, then ask them why they think their way is best. Such people are trying to be of service, and you might as well make use of the servants God gives you. Trying to protect yourself from feelings of submission is a symptom of self-importance. Why not focus on whatever it is you're supposed to be doing, and get it done the best way you can?

The only thing anyone can learn to control, really, is himself; but if he can learn to do that, he can have influence. And that's the best any of us will ever do.

[Crpdeth]

User

As an attorney, people pay you to tell them how to solve their problems in a troubled time and to fight along side them in court, not to tell them how to wash their hands, they've hired you to help them and asked for your help...See, that's what I'm afraid you are missing, you say that people are in "victim mode" because they cant accept your instructions, yet I contend that if your opinions were of an important nature, or even asked for, then they would be valued as pure gold. Indeed it is condescending and blatant loftiness to bark orders at those people in your life who you profess to care about as if they just could not exist without your help.

I reiterate that I'm the type of person who will ask for help when needed...If I'm working on a new project that I have little to no experience in, I want to do things the right way and believe me, any real world help that I am given is valued and matched with a big fat steak dinner or something.

Personally, I think you are protecting yourself when you say "it's the people who are afraid they're not dominant and who see life as a tension between submission and dominance who want to characterize what I do as a dominance or control thing"...It sounds to me that you are trying to justify how you are and debase anyone who is independent enough to live without those opinions that weren't asked for.

I do think being instructional (in part) is a habit, I think these people start out with good intentions, they are smart (super smart in my two cases) and they realize that they can help their friends and family doing things and they enjoy it because after all it DOES feel good to be needed, however while going about their normal day to day, the feeling of being needed is not present...That's where I muse the trouble starts and before you know it they are telling grown men how to wash their hands or how to drive.


Crpdeth

[BillP]

User
I think what Crpdeth was talking about when he used the term "instructional people" was those people who often seem to be a pain in the butt, but don't mean any harm and their value to you far outweighs the irritation. You are correct when you say that some people are "damaged" and have an apparent need to dominate or control others. Trying to maintain a friendship or even a working relationship with these people is usually a mistake although there are ways to do so.

Mentally healthy adults move easily from dealing with others in an "adult/child" role to an "adult/adult" role as it is appropriate. Sometimes it's not easy and one of the most common problems is between parents and their adult children. Some parents just can't move the relationship into an "adult/adult" one. I have found that it's best to assume an "adult/adult" posture unless the child clearly wants to slip back into "child/adult" posture and then to get back to "adult/adult" as soon as possible.

The term "super adult" is one that depends greatly on the other person's voluntary assumption of a submissive role. Successful use of this role is often prevented if the other person perceives himself being cast into a "child" role. In our culture, the "super adult" role is often temporary. Others accept your role as a "super adult" when you are acting as their attorney and defer to your education and experience. If you insist on that same deference with friends and neighbors, you're just someone with an inappropriate need to dominate or control others and will lack healthy relationships with others.

Good "mentors" are perhaps the most successful in moving in and out of these relationship roles. They can slip comfortably from being a friend (A/A) to an instructor (SA/A) and back to a friend (A/A). You will note that in the above illustration I used all capital letters. The connotation is one of equality despite the roles played. I think the people you dislike dealing with are the ones who wish a relationship that would be shown as (A/a).

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by BillP

User
I think what Crpdeth was talking about when he used the term "instructional people" was those people who often seem to be a pain in the butt, but don't mean any harm and their value to you far outweighs the irritation.

Exactly right... There is also the fear that given enough time, that the "irritation" will fester and become more of a problem.

Originally Posted by BillP

You are correct when you say that some people are "damaged" and have an apparent need to dominate or control others. Trying to maintain a friendship or even a working relationship with these people is usually a mistake although there are ways to do so.

I think you misread User here... I think he is saying that persons who cannot accept random instruction (me being that token person in this thread) are the ones who are "psychologically damaged", although you bring up a good point by reversing that thought.

User, It's not the "relationship that people view in terms of dominance and control", in my opinion, but the very act of speaking down to someone as if the person they are speaking to has no clue... If it were as you say, I would only befriend people who couldn't kick my ass in a fist fight, or beat me in a game of pool, or cook better than me, or hunt better than me...See what I mean?

Crpdeth

[user]

Originally Posted by Crpdeth

User
...Indeed it is condescending and blatant loftiness to bark orders at those people in your life who you profess to care about as if they just could not exist without your help.
...It sounds to me that you are trying to justify how you are and debase anyone who is independent enough to live without those opinions that weren't asked for.
...Crpdeth

I hear you, and you make good points. I do try not to "bark", though, and I don't give orders. But I do tell people what they need to do in order to get the legal system to give them what they say they want. And, yes, they pay me to do that, and then they ignore what I tell them. That's ok with me, because I don't have to live with the consequences.

I think it's a natural process to try to justify how one is; that doesn't make it good, of course, and one should try to "die to self daily". But I don't see how debasing other people has anything to do with my rationalization of my own behavior. It is not my purpose to put anybody down - I really don't think I care about them that much, which I regard as another failure on my part. I'm too wrapped up in myself to find anyone else important enough to be worth the effort of debasing, self-centered, arrogant, fool that I am.

But I'm getting better.

[user]

Originally Posted by BillP

...The term "super adult" is one that depends greatly on the other person's voluntary assumption of a submissive role. Successful use of this role is often prevented if the other person perceives himself being cast into a "child" role. In our culture, the "super adult" role is often temporary. Others accept your role as a "super adult" when you are acting as their attorney and defer to your education and experience. If you insist on that same deference with friends and neighbors, you're just someone with an inappropriate need to dominate or control others and will lack healthy relationships with others.

Good "mentors" are perhaps the most successful in moving in and out of these relationship roles. They can slip comfortably from being a friend (A/A) to an instructor (SA/A) and back to a friend (A/A). You will note that in the above illustration I used all capital letters. The connotation is one of equality despite the roles played. I think the people you dislike dealing with are the ones who wish a relationship that would be shown as (A/a).

Good point. I was raised around people who assumed the submissive role as part of a "management technique". I developed a tendency to avoid getting sucked into that kind of relationship because of the deception and manipulation that it entails. As a result, I have absolutely no patience with people who try to engage me in what you describe as "(A/a)".

Good way to illustrate the relationship dynamics. Did you invent that?

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by user

I hear you, and you make good points. I do try not to "bark", though, and I don't give orders. But I do tell people what they need to do in order to get the legal system to give them what they say they want. And, yes, they pay me to do that, and then they ignore what I tell them. That's ok with me, because I don't have to live with the consequences.

User, I honestly think you are missing (purposely overlooking?) something that I have continuously reiterated in this thread. I'm not referring to people who hand out instructions upon being paid to do so, you keep coming back to your profession...Indeed I would EXPECT you to be instructional in your line of work, just as I would be if I noticed Crabgrass taking over one of my clients lawns, that's what we are paid for...Again, I am expressing my growing nausea regarding those who, can not, or will not differentiate the work place from their life with family and friends.

Originally Posted by user

Good point. I was raised around people who assumed the submissive role as part of a "management technique". I developed a tendency to avoid getting sucked into that kind of relationship because of the deception and manipulation that it entails.

Interesting...Just out of sheer curiosity, would you elaborate on how you feel that you would be deceived and manipulated by assuming a more submissive role?


Crpdeth

[BillP]

Originally Posted by user

Good point. I was raised around people who assumed the submissive role as part of a "management technique". I developed a tendency to avoid getting sucked into that kind of relationship because of the deception and manipulation that it entails. As a result, I have absolutely no patience with people who try to engage me in what you describe as "(A/a)".

Good way to illustrate the relationship dynamics. Did you invent that?

I wish I could take credit for it but I can't. I particularly like the concept of "super adult" SA. It gives you a way to illustrate a "superordinate" role. That's important because then the other person is cast in a "subordinate" role rather than a submissive one. A lot has to do with culture, in many an A/a dynamic is accepted but for us it smacks of an A/C dynamic and when you treat an adult as a child you are headed for trouble.

As you have discovered an adult who voluntarily assumes the "a" role in a relationship with another adult is trying to create a a/A dynamic which is by it's very nature manipulative. The term often heard is "sucking up". On the other hand, casting the other in the SA role can be straightforward. Acknowledge the other's age or experience and you give him permission to take a leadership position without making him ultimately responsible for the outcome. You have no doubt found that if someone comes to you in your professional capacity in an A/SA dynamic he still accepts ultimate responsibility for the outcome. If he comes to you in an a/A dynamic what he really wants is a C/A dynamic which means that you are expected to make everything right.

[user]

Originally Posted by Crpdeth

User, I honestly think you are missing (purposely overlooking?) something ... you keep coming back to your profession...Indeed I would EXPECT you to be instructional in your line of work, ...Crpdeth

Part of my thinking is that we get the line of work our own peculiar neuroses program us for. I have to apologize to people fairly often for "getting preachy". It's not just about work. I have the work I do because of my confrontational and aggressive personality (or the one I had twenty years ago, at least) as well as my superior attention to detail and ability to remember huge quantities of information, and my feeling that I am competent to tell you what you ought to be doing. I have learned not to place an implied, "you dummy" on the end of every sentence. Jesus has taught me that any idiot can be saved, and my abilities aren't worth spit unless I'm doing love.

Originally Posted by Crpdeth

Interesting...Just out of sheer curiosity, would you elaborate on how you feel that you would be deceived and manipulated by assuming a more submissive role?
Crpdeth

Sure, I was raised by women who were all victims of horrible sexual abuse that lasted for years. They had learned to "manage" the men in their lives, and since they married men whom they could fall in love with (i.e., abusive alcoholics), their principal management technique was the objectively observable submission-meekness role, while their only strength against such men was their ability to deceive and manipulate. Their other major tools were access to sexual gratification and access to prepared food. Theirs was a culture based on shame, fear, and guilt. The submissive role they assumed was a lot like the "undocumented immigrant's" unarmed invasion. If the people coming over the Arizona border were armed, it would be clearer what they're up to, and what we should do about it. But their assumption of a subordinate role of weakness disarms us in our resolve to repel invaders.

Thing about me, though, is that I thought that was normal until I got much older - I didn't know those people were crazy. But I'd learned to manage THEM, which is why I use intellect and argument to get what I want and to beat other people down. Like I said, I'm getting better. Life is a process, not a goal.

[Crpdeth]

Originally Posted by user

Part of my thinking is that we get the line of work our own peculiar neuroses program us for. I have to apologize to people fairly often for "getting preachy". It's not just about work. I have the work I do because of my confrontational and aggressive personality (or the one I had twenty years ago, at least) as well as my superior attention to detail and ability to remember huge quantities of information, and my feeling that I am competent to tell you what you ought to be doing. I have learned not to place an implied, "you dummy" on the end of every sentence.

And after saying this, you still dont realize that in having to learn not to "place an implied you dummy" at the end of a sentance, that you are already 'speaking down' to your friends/family?

Why "get preachy" to start with? If people want to be preached at, they go to church and if they want your opinions they will ask you for them.

Crpdeth