Newbie questions: Shooting and missing

[hartfish]

I was given a SA Mil Spec for Chirstmas. I've shot about 250 rounds through it so far, but I can't hit squat. It's all over the place.

Is it me or the gun?

I'm not the most experienced handgunner--I shoot long guns proficiently, though--so i'm wondering if i'm expecting too much or if I just need to work on my form. It seems to shoot low/right (I'm a left-handed shooter) and I was told I may be pushing it down in anticipation of the recoil. However,

What kind of accuracy/groups should I expect out of the box?

Should I consider replacing the sights with adjustables?

How can I tell if it's me or the gun?

I appreciate the advice.

[Shooter45]

The pistol should hold a 2.5" - 3.5" group at 25 yds.

It may be you so let someone who you know can shoot a pistol have a try. See if they do any better.

Try standing about 7 yds away from a PAPER target and shoot for group. Use a good two hand grip and gently press the trigger. Let the trigger reset, aim carefully and gently press the trigger again. Take your time and practice. You won't get good at it overnite.

The 1911 recoil isn't bad so don't let it scare you. Have a friend watch you shoot to make sure you are not flinching.

Keep us posted on your practice and we can help.

[carver]

Hartfish, take a look at this site: http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/grp-analysis.pdf

[mesinge2]

Print this out and use it at the range. I use it when I give people instruction:

[carver]

I thought I had coppied that pie chart, but couldn't find it. The site I posted above gives the same information, but does it with pictures for each segement of the pie, and it's in PDF format.

[Hawg]

How you hold a 1911 can mean the difference between groups and patterns.

[Dirtypacman]

If you question the gun like Shooter says let someone with experience shoot it. You will find 99.9% its not the gun. Don't make any modifications to the gun based upon the way your shooting it yet. Of course a trigger, gripes, or sights can change how a gun shoots but I say you will see improvement when you learn what your doing wrong first. Then decide what changes you want to make to it.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by hartfish

I was given a SA Mil Spec for Chirstmas. I've shot about 250 rounds through it so far, but I can't hit squat. It's all over the place.

Is it me or the gun?

I'm not the most experienced handgunner--I shoot long guns proficiently, though--so i'm wondering if i'm expecting too much or if I just need to work on my form. It seems to shoot low/right (I'm a left-handed shooter) and I was told I may be pushing it down in anticipation of the recoil. However,

What kind of accuracy/groups should I expect out of the box?

Should I consider replacing the sights with adjustables?

How can I tell if it's me or the gun?

I appreciate the advice.

Get someone to teach you how to shoot a handgun. Shooting a rifle and a handgun are totally un-related except for the fact they both make a loud noise. You can go take lessons and save yourself a lot of heartache. I was an awesome rifle shooter, and I had to get an action pistol shooter and a bullseye pistol shooter to teach me how to shoot pistol. Different techniques for each discipline.

[JLA]

and most imortantly... Practice practice practice.

[woolleyworm]

Originally Posted by hartfish

I was given a SA Mil Spec for Chirstmas. I've shot about 250 rounds through it so far, but I can't hit squat. It's all over the place.

Is it me or the gun?

I'm not the most experienced handgunner--I shoot long guns proficiently, though--so i'm wondering if i'm expecting too much or if I just need to work on my form. It seems to shoot low/right (I'm a left-handed shooter) and I was told I may be pushing it down in anticipation of the recoil. However,

What kind of accuracy/groups should I expect out of the box?

Should I consider replacing the sights with adjustables?

How can I tell if it's me or the gun?

I appreciate the advice.

Best thing I can advise you is to shoot at a shorter distance, 5-10 yrds tops and keep yourself consistent. Use a rest or sandbags on a bench and make sure your mechanics are the same with every pull. Use the same brand ammo until you get consistency on the target. Don't shoot for bullseyes or try moving your point of aim until you have consistent groups. Don't even make any sight adjustments, just focus on your technique and being stable. Same sight picture, same point of aim, practice practice practice. Once you've done this, you'll be able to diagnose where the problem is at quite easily.

Good luck and let's see some pics of that Springer !!

Woolley

[woolleyworm]

Originally Posted by JLA

and most imortantly... Practice practice practice.

dang it.... ya beat me to it ! you musta posted while I was typing out my above reply...

[BETH]

try shooting it from a table and see if u hit anything, i did have the same problem at one time could not figure out what i was doing wrong could not hit anything it was because i was not holding the gun up high enough on the handle-good luck let us know what happens

[JLA]

I find most new handgun shooters tend to pull the muzzle low while they are jerking the trigger. I have taught alot of folks how to shoot handguns and this is the way of 99% of them. I had 1 kid, my lil sisters feonce', who listened to everything i told him and did exactly everything i showed him and he was rewarded with some very tight groups on the center of the target to take home. He had never shot a handgun (aside from airsoft guns) in his life. and he went home with a 50 rd B27 fired with a .45ACP 1911, a 50 rd B27 fired with a CZ75 9mm, and a 50 rd B27 fired with a CZ83 .380, and also a practice target fired with a bersa thunder .22. All 4 targets had better than a 4" center mass hole in them.

He then went and bought him a 9mm handgun for HD/CC.

[yetiman]

Good info for me as well.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by JLA

and most imortantly... Practice practice practice.

I would have to add practice proper technique, dont just practice. Reinforcing poor habits does not make a shooter a better shooter.

[carver]

Originally Posted by JLA

and most imortantly... Practice practice practice.

Practice Doesn't Make Perfect, Perfect Practice Makes Perfect! Not trying to be a butt head, but with a hand gun you gotta know what's what! I really think the OP needs to get some "good" instruction from some one who teaches hand gun shooting, not his BIL who thinks he knows how (unless he really does). Then Practice, Practice, Practice!

[JLA]

C'mon guys even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.. I have seen some pretty unorthodox shooting techniques work for people and its because they practiced extensively.

Dont get me wrong, you guys are right, but practicing even if you dont have proper instruction or shooting technique will teach you how to better handle the weapon to make it hit the target. Some folks will shoot 200 rounds before they figure it out and others may shoot 2000, but practice, even uninstructed practice, will make you a better shooter.

[NGIB]

A good friend manages a gun store & range (and is also a multi-certified instructor) and he tells me it's amazing how many folks bring back guns that are "broke" and can't hit a target...

[BlackEagle]

Not sure how this would work in a semi-auto, but when I was training with the .38 special someone would load a spent case in along with the live rounds then watch me shoot. I would not know where the spent case was in the revolver. If I flinched or anticipated the recoil in any way it would show up when I "shot" the spent case. Is it possible to load a spent case somewhere in the magazine? Would there be a feed problem trying to load an empty case?

[436]

Originally Posted by hartfish

I was given a SA Mil Spec for Chirstmas. I've shot about 250 rounds through it so far, but I can't hit squat. It's all over the place.

Is it me or the gun?

I'm not the most experienced handgunner--I shoot long guns proficiently, though--so i'm wondering if i'm expecting too much or if I just need to work on my form. It seems to shoot low/right (I'm a left-handed shooter) and I was told I may be pushing it down in anticipation of the recoil. However,

What kind of accuracy/groups should I expect out of the box?

Should I consider replacing the sights with adjustables?

How can I tell if it's me or the gun?

I appreciate the advice.

Lot's of good advice by the others here.

But'..., I don't believe anyone asked what type and brand of ammo were you shooting?
For better control you might load or have someone reload a few dummy rounds for your magazine, close your eyes as you load a magazine or have someone load the magazines for you loading in one or two dummies randomly; as the dummy rounds come into the chamber and you attempt to fire them; it should show you where the muzzle is going and what you need to work on.
Good Luck
436

[JLA]

Originally Posted by BlackEagle

Not sure how this would work in a semi-auto, but when I was training with the .38 special someone would load a spent case in along with the live rounds then watch me shoot. I would not know where the spent case was in the revolver. If I flinched or anticipated the recoil in any way it would show up when I "shot" the spent case. Is it possible to load a spent case somewhere in the magazine? Would there be a feed problem trying to load an empty case?

It would jam with a spent case, but I do this quite often with Azoom snap caps in semi autos. Mainly for folks that refuse to admit the problem is them. And it has worked everytime.

The snap caps feed and eject just like normal rounds. only difference is there isnt a loud bang or a recoiling gun to mask the fact that the shooter just anticipated the recoil so badly the gun loooked like it cycled.

[Old Grump]

Don't know if anybody has told you to use both eyes or shown you how to get a proper grip but here is a short course I teach my students. Good for learning where to focus your eyes, cure flinches, correct the problems like grabbing, heeling, anticipation, etc. You get your grip and learn trigger control. If you do the dry fire exercise your groups will tighten. Go find a few other bullet weights and try them too, some guns are not picky and some are very fussy about what they like to shoot. But first get you a package of snap caps if you don't have them now and start dry firing.

Dry Fire, teach yourself to use both eyes
If you hold your arm straight out in front of you and hold your thumb up can you see the striations on your thumbnail clearly using both eyes, in other words is it in focus? You are a bifocal creature, that is you have an eye on either side of your face and they will turn in to focus on that sight about 30" in front of your nose. If you can do that then both eyes should be working and you can focus on the front sight, That is the hard part and you can see well enough to shoot like a marksman.

Next step is get snap caps for the caliber of your choice and insert it into the gun.

Get a plain sheet of typing or copy paper and in the very center of the paper use a fine point pen with black ink and make a little cross with 2.5 cm horizontal and vertical lines. No larger. Fasten that paper on a horizontal surface at shoulder height in a location with good light.

Pick up your chosen handgun with the off hand and place it in your shooting hand and get a good grip. Grip it firmly like you would a handshake, not to loose, not so tight that you shake. Extend your arm so the muzzle of your gun is no more than a cm away from the paper. Focus on that front sight with both eyes. You will see that the vertical line goes straight up the middle of the sight and the horizontal line sits squarely on the top of your front sight. Your front sight should now be centered in the notch of your rear sight and level.

Now with the gun cocked, your focus entirely on the front sight you play a little mind game. Imagine the sight is one solid piece attached to the trigger. When you pull the trigger back you are trying to pull the front sight back through the center of your rear sight. If you pull, yank, anticipate, jerk, grab anything but a perfect trigger pull those lines will move away from the front sight like a seismometer detecting an earthquake.

The objective of this exercise is to get 10 perfect shots and what you will discover is that when your focus is on the sight/trigger you will have no idea when the gun goes off. That will be your good shot.

Now the fun begins, switch the gun to your left hand and start over again. You will be sweating and hurting and mad at me but I will guarantee you that the top shooters do this and this is why they are top shooters.

Now the easy part, get your two handed grip and take 10 more shots but this part is pretty redundant. The whole point of the exercise is to get your focus on the front sight while your trigger finger squeezes the trigger without disturbing your sight alignment no matter which hand or hands you are using. If you can do that you can do it standing on one leg leaning over a table shooting through a door at an oblique angle or hanging by your knees from a trapeze bar. You will not know what position you will be in when you have to shoot but sight picture and consistent trigger pull will increase your chances of hitting what you want shot. Using both eyes will aid in your sight picture.

[BlackEagle]

Thanks, JLA and all;
I always wondered what snap caps were for and how they work...436's method with dummy rounds could be the poor man's snap caps, and I'll have to try out Old Grump's plan with my Remington NMA, but without the dry firing; just the aiming exercise.

[Old Grump]

Originally Posted by BlackEagle

Thanks, JLA and all;
I always wondered what snap caps were for and how they work...436's method with dummy rounds could be the poor man's snap caps, and I'll have to try out Old Grump's plan with my Remington NMA, but without the dry firing; just the aiming exercise.

Not my plan, I learned it from National Champion Bonnie Harmon of the USAMU during the All Army Pistol Championships. His little trick of the sight and trigger being one piece of metal moving together when you squeezed the trigger brought me from Expert Class to Master Class.

[436]

Originally Posted by BlackEagle

Thanks, JLA and all;
I always wondered what snap caps were for and how they work...436's method with dummy rounds could be the poor man's snap caps, and I'll have to try out Old Grump's plan with my Remington NMA, but without the dry firing; just the aiming exercise.

Snap caps work well as mention, but there more protection for the firing pin, with dummy round drill, you need to leave the spent primer in the empty case that’s going to be reloaded. It's always a good idea to color the dummy with a marker so you that can easly and visually tell the difference between the live and dummy ammo.
It’s always about safety.
Good luck.
436