damascus steel?

[sluggermn]

what is damascus steel? is it more desireable for knives or less so?
they look interesting but I am wondering about quality.
do they demand more of a price or less of a price.
how do they make that zebra effect?

any one want to ramble and educate me on these?

thanks

slugger

[Dakota Red 1]

I'm writing you up something on another tab Slugger, have it done in a bit.

[Dakota Red 1]

Damascus...I'll take a shot at this.

Just deleted a whole bunch of TMI. I am a windbag on this subject.
Early Damascus steel came about through the process of getting enough carbon mixed with iron to make the alloy called steel. Steel can be hardened into a good blade...iron can't. Certain locations in Europe and Asia had this process down and when the fate of the world hinged on the quality of the steel blades of an army, it became a strategic resource. Damascus, Syria was one of the places that Europeans could get fine steel.

Damascus is not homogenous, the carbon is not evenly distributed throughout the blade...unlike modern steels.

Jump to the present and we'll go over how Damascus is made by today's blacksmiths. Like me.

Take same-sized bars of iron and high-carbon steel. Alternate them and stack them up.(Let's say I have 5 bars total but it can be more or less.) Fasten them together and put them in the fire.

Get them hot enough so they will weld (fuse) together when hammered on an anvil. Now you have one solid bar made from the 5 bars that has 5 alternating layers of iron and steel.

Take that bar and hammer it out until it is about twice as long, use a chisel to cut it most of the way through at the middle, then fold it at that cut until the two halves are together and weld them together. Now you have 10 layers. Repeat this process until you have the number of layers desired. Next fold you have 20 layers and so on...The layers get thinner every time you hammer out the bar.

What you wind up with is a solid bar that is made up of thin layers like the pages of a book. The next step is to manipulate the bar to develop a pattern. There are several ways to do this. Most methods deal with cutting partway through the bar to expose the edges of the layers. The bar is 3 or 4 times thicker than the finished blade so you can chisel in some shallow cuts, hammer it out flat, and the edges of all those cut layers make a pattern. You can also twist the bar up tight, (it has a square cross-section) then hammer the twisted bar into a flat bar and that will give you a distinctive pattern. There are many techniques to make different patterns.

Hammer your bar into the shape of the knife you desire and you are ready for the final 2 steps. Heat treating and etching.

Heat treating is two-part, hardening and tempering. Hardening is an all-the-way process. You heat up your knife and put it in a quenching bath to cool it quickly. It is now all-the-way hard...and brittle. Tempering is a process you can control. You reheat the steel to a lesser degree until it is no longer brittle and the right amount of hardness is left.

Up until now, you can't see the pattern in the metal. Etching is done in an acid bath. The acid works more on the steel layers than on iron and it brings out the pattern.

Still had to leave a lot out but that's most of it.

I have heard that Damascus blades develop micro-serrations when you sharpen them with a stone. The stone wears away more of the iron layers and lets the steel stand out. This sounds reasonable and could be a good thing.

Otherwise I know of nothing that would make them better, but all that work makes them costlier. However there is now production line damascus that has made the price a lot less. And you can't make it stainless. That is another consideration.

Hope this helps. There are some knife makers here who could add a lot. I make a blade every so often but am not too involved with the trade.---Mike

[sluggermn]

thanks I am looking for a hunting knife to pass on to my son when he gets old enough to go with me and I think the unique properties of damascus steel is what I am looking for.

slugger

[patrol]

I think Damascus keeps a good edge for a longer time than many other types of knife blades but they rust easier. Not sure though.

[Texman]

Didn't some companies make Damascus barrels for early shotguns? and then later on find out they would not stand the pressure of too much modern day black powder? or is my brain fried?

[Bill DeShivs]

Damascus has no better edge-holding properties than any good steel.
Damascus shotgun barrels can develop rust inside the welds of the steel, weakening it from the inside out.
Other than being trendy, pretty and expensive, damascus steel offers no benefit over high carbon steel.

[Contenderizer]

Texman,
No, your brain is not fried. Damascus barrels for shotguns were made in a similar fashion as Dakota Red 1 describes, but were fashioned in the form of a barrel in lieu of a knife edge. Damascus barrels worked just fine until the advent of smokeless powder which has higher pressures over the entire length of the barrel (unlike smokeless, black powder explodes and then immediately looses pressure).

[Tom Militano]

There are some makers who produce stainless damascus, but it's expensive.

[Terry_P]

It does make a pretty knife though

[Dakota Red 1]

A knife maker had some product laid out at our last gun show. He had damascus and cable damascus (forge welded steel cable) and fake damascus. Yes, he paints a pattern on the blade with mustard and it stains it dark. Should we call that Delicatessen Damascus? Give me a six-inch drop point and hold the mayo. Oh, well...

[Dakota Red 1]

Went to the annual meeting of the blacksmiths' organization in Oklahoma. One of the guys had made a damascus turtle. It is cute. Wish my picture was better.

[sportour]

Many years ago a knifesmith told me that the Damascus process not only involved hammer welding layered steel but wrapping it around a core of softer metal, a process still used by Japanese swordsmiths. I like to "play" with scraps of Damascus now and then. Here's a couple of knives I've made with those scraps. The grip of the top knife is an Orca tooth that was given to me by a Native artist many years ago. The dagger grip is Locust but it's a temporary and will be replaced by one of Cocobolo as soon as I solder a guard on the tang.

[magusjinx]

On the subject of Damascus barrels ...

http://www.hallowellco.com/damascus_twist_barrels.htm
http://damascus.free.fr/f_damas/f_hist/liege.htm
http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/damascus_barrels.html


In lieu of the deterioration of the serviceability of Damascus steel I would not think that a knife would have very much use after 30 or so years ... I would be concerned about the blade delaminating ...

But they do look good ...

[Dakota Red 1]

Originally Posted by magusjinx

In lieu of the deterioration of the serviceability of Damascus steel I would not think that a knife would have very much use after 30 or so years ... I would be concerned about the blade delaminating ...

But they do look good ...

Not a problem with blades, just shotgun barrels.

[JohnK3]

A blade won't experience the stresses and pressure that a barrel does. Delamination isn't a factor in knives for that reason.

[db4usa]

I ran across a beautiful Damascus bowie specimen in Indiana a few years ago. It's made by a man whose last name is Kamman. A bit of a hermit, he hails from Huntingburg, IN. I saw him featured in a show called "Across Rural Indiana". His methods are are home grown and he is truly an unknown artist who mainly sticks to gun shows and flea markets to share his talents. Don't bother to Google him, he doesn't exist in the electronic world.

The blade is just shy of 9" with a full tang. The handle begins with a brass guard, walnut, brass spacer, stag and capped with brass again. The dang thing is shave sharp too...enjoy.

[DARIN]

Hello. I am a collector/dealer and I deal in damascus steel quite a bit. Damascus can be many, many different mixtures of steel. I won`t get into the technical terms but if you would like some of these terms just send me a private message or email.
Damascus is created by mixing/layering high carbon and low carbon steels. I personally believe that Damascus steel makes a far superior blade than todays standard knife steels because of it`s attributes. Whether you pay $50.00 or $500.00 for a Damascus knife really doesn`t signify the knifes quality. { I know that some will disagree with these statements and that`s perfectly ok.)
In Japan, there are still a few sword makers that practice the ancient traditions used many long years ago in the making of swords. Some of the ways Damsacus is made will blow your mind. Damascus steel is made so that the blade will be both flexible and rigid. Normally, the inner core of the blade will be the harder still and the exterior will be the softer. This makes the blade easier to sharpen but still hard enough to make a formadable weapon without breaking. I have a few hundred Damascus knives and swords. I will post a few photos.
Damascus knives and swords have been common in the far east for centuries. Of course many think that this is where the art originated. The interest in Damascus steel in America is actually fairly new.
I can give you some exact information concerning any subject about Damascus if you like. Anything from the beginning or creation, the old methods in making it, the modern ways that Damascus is made which includes the many mistakes that some knife makers are making in their process, the names of the metals that are used, etc.etc. But, I won`t waist much more space here with all of that. This subject can go astray very quickly because the majority of people are mis-informed on the subject. I gained my knowledge through a few old timers who are world reknowned for their blades and many years of research. I will be the first to tell you that I don`t have all of the information on the subject but I would respectfully state that I am an expert in the field.
To close I will tell you to do as much research on the subject as possible and in doing so, be sure to check the reputations of the people or person that you are getting the info from. I will also tell you that there are many great knives to be found on ebay believe it or not. Like I previously stated, sometimes a 50 dollar blade can be high quality. If you start collecting Damascus, be sure to keep the steel clean and oiled at all times. I clean my collection about 4 times per year. Also, don`t be afraid to use the knives. Damascus steel was made for use, that`s the purpose ya know. And finally, my favorite places to buy Damascus knives and swrds are from individuals. Two of them actually make the knives. One of them is from Jordan and the other is from England.

Have fun but be careful!!

[DARIN]

Here are a few more of my favs...

[DARIN]

Sorry for the multi posts...tryin to get bigger photos...

[buckeye14]

These knives are awesome! I need to find me some.
Thanks . buckeye14

[zb338]

Nice work Dakota. I knew about Damascus shotgun barrels;
not about knives. You put it in a way that we can understand.
Even if we can't actually do it.

Zeke

[DARIN]

Buckeye...If you are interested in finding and/or buying some great Damascus blades I can help. I can get you damascus knives, swords, and other type weapons or blanks of Damascus that you can shape into whatever you`d like with some easy steps as to how. I don`t know where the point of detirioration comes from. I know that there are swords across the world that can hardly be dated other than by knowing the shape, style or markings. Damascus steel does need to be cared for but that`s really no big deal because simply oiling the steel and keeping it clean is simple and an easy responsibility for any knife owner. Anyway,...if you want to buy a few or you need a link or anything just let me know.

[Maximilian II]

Damascus is gorgeous. Those photos are nice, thanks for posting. I met a blacksmith this weekend and watched him work. Just iron, but makes me want to get my forge working.
Those pics are whetting my appetite, no pun intended.
I do love making things out of metal.

[DARIN]

Hey Max, there are a few great videos on youtube but you`ll have to patiently make your way through all of the crap. I ordered a DVD that has the history of Damascus which also takes you step by step, from beginning to the very end of making a Damascus sword. I am trying to find it now so that I can give you the name of it but it`s been a year or so, so I may never find the thing in my jungle of a house...LOL But, I`m sure that if you search online, you`ll be able to find something like it. Watching a blacksmith is great and getting the fundamentals of metalurgy is a must if one is going to attempt to create Damascus blades. On the other hand, I would think that creating Damascus is a bit more extensive and complex work than an average blacksmith would ever attempt so there may be conflicts in the order or methods used. Just a thought...