A Question for Shimon . . .

[Pistolenschutze]

I was reading just recently about the Israeli-developed APAM tank round, Shimon. As I understand it, this is intended as a multipurpose round that may be used against just about anything from anti-personnel, to breaching concrete walls, to cutting through tank armor by varying the type of warhead load and the fuse timing. Have you seen this round in action, and if so, is it really as effective as it appears to be? Also, I noticed that the article described the round as a 105mm, but as I understand it, the new Merkava IV carries a 120mm gun. The APAM doesn't appear to be a sabot round, so are the Israelis developing a 120mm version for use with the Merkava IV?

[sabashimon]

In a nutshell Pistol, IMI is producing the APAM round in both 105mm and 120 mm.
I personally have not seen it in action, but am in touch with those that have, and apparently it fulfills its' role impressively.
I was just born too soon.......we coulda used these back when.
I will be heading over in mid-April to join up to a relatively new unit made up of over-age ex-combat vets who volunteer a month a year.
I'm thinking that as it's Israels 60th anniversary celebration in early May, it could get "interesting" around that time.
I'll try to bring back some interesting pics for ya.

[Pistolenschutze]

Please do bring back some pics, Shimon! And yeah, I suspect "interesting" may just be a classic understatement! By the way, if you happen to get up to Masada while you're there, I would be most interested indeed in seeing some pictures. That whole story has always fascinated me, and I would dearly love to visit there one day. Ol' Flavius Josephus may not be the most reliable historian from ancient times, but he certainly did write an interesting tale, and modern archaeological evidence does seem to bear out at least most of what he reported. I think I would take the tram up there instead of making the hike though.

[Dakota Red 1]

In almost everything, experience is more valuable than precept. -Quintilian

Pay heed to the experienced, rather than the learned. -Arab proverb

Probably unfortunate sources for quotes when we're talking about Masada and present-day Israel. Just thought it was an exciting concept that you and the other experienced soldiers were going to be utilized next month. I'm sure you will provide valuable service. Good luck! ---Mike

[sabashimon]

Thanks Mike, I appreciate the kind thoughts.
This new unit has been a very positive developement.
It's primarily focused around a few very sensitive and problematic checkpoints, near Gaza and Yehuda and Shomron (West Bank), where there have been infiltrations, weapons smuggling, and attacks.
They take us grizzly old guys, kit us out, give us a day at the range, then we are basically there to support the standing army guys (18-21yrs old). It really helps to have more experienced and "cooler" heads out there, and the younger guys seem to appreciate it.
And we get to feel as if we can still contribute. Though you'll never hear about it, there have been numerous "incidents" where I believe this unit has made a real difference.
I try to get over for it twice a year, and I have the added bonus of seeing my kids and grandkids (7!)

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by sabashimon

Though you'll never hear about it, there have been numerous "incidents" where I believe this unit has made a real difference.

I gather there are a great many "incidents" the general population never hears about, Shimon . . . especially if the Mossad just happens to be involved.

[Dakota Red 1]

How about I cut the brim off one of my ball caps and go with you?

[stash247]

[QUOTE=sabashimon;312191].
They take us grizzly old guys, kit us out, give us a day at the range, then we are basically there to support the standing army guys (18-21yrs old). It really helps to have more experienced and "cooler" heads out there, and the younger guys seem to appreciate it.

They get the wisdom and experience of fighting 30-40 years ago, in the older way, for free; a bargain, in my book! Things like navigation, by the stars, and compass, rather than GPS, the difference, between cover, and concealment, regardless of body armor, the reality of the 'human element', in all things.
I spent nearly four years, in Viet Nam, and the only electronics I saw were a radio (that sometimes worked), and my Starlight Scope, which was reliable as the sunrise, IF YOU COULD FIND BATTERIES!
Mine was one of the first in country, converted to AA's, which I could buy at the PX; today, our troops have, individually, more electronics aboard than a regiment had, back then.
But, could they fulfill the mission, without them?
Not without help from the old guys, I suspect.
An old buddy of mine, retired, US Army, E-9, name will not be disclosed,as his retirement might be at stake, decided, one night, pretty 'alcohol inspired', to challenge a project 'Masseter', an computer served, electronic 'battlefield'. at Ft Hood, Tx. We not only beat their system, but 'tagged; the CP wall, before leaving, with a 'rattlecan'.
We were arrested, 3 weeks, or a bit more, later, with the sole issue being how we beat their system!
They had no clue, except the paint on the wall.
Reminds me of an old song, with the tag line, "a country boy will survive".
Old soldiers have much to offer, as to "how we did it, back then", with the obvious advantages, to their younger companions.
Keep on doing, what you are doing, as long as you are able; both sides benefit, and greatly.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by stash247

They get the wisdom and experience of fighting 30-40 years ago, in the older way, for free; a bargain, in my book! Things like navigation, by the stars, and compass, rather than GPS, the difference, between cover, and concealment, regardless of body armor, the reality of the 'human element', in all things.

You know, Terry, for most of our history the U.S. depended on a relatively small cadre military composed mostly of older, experienced, professional soldiers. In time of war the idea was to use those troops to leven the bread, so to speak, by integrating them--especially the noncoms--into newly formed military units to steady and train the youngsters answering the call to arms. I remember from my own experience just how valuable those older guys could be. In fact, I would be the first to admit that I would likely not have survived my first 30 days "in country" had it not been for one old sergeant on his third tour. BIT teaches useful skills for sure, but it doesn't really teach a newbie how to survive in a real combat zone. Only the wisdom of experience passed on by the older guys does that . . . and as you know yourself, a good deal of luck as well.

[stash247]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

You know, Terry, for most of our history the U.S. depended on a relatively small cadre military composed mostly of older, experienced, professional soldiers. In time of war the idea was to use those troops to leven the bread, so to speak, by integrating them--especially the noncoms--into newly formed military units to steady and train the youngsters answering the call to arms. I remember from my own experience just how valuable those older guys could be. In fact, I would be the first to admit that I would likely not have survived my first 30 days "in country" had it not been for one old sergeant on his third tour. BIT teaches useful skills for sure, but it doesn't really teach a newbie how to survive in a real combat zone. Only the wisdom of experience passed on by the older guys does that . . . and as you know yourself, a good deal of luck as well.

We were headed up route 1, with 5 tons of mortar ammo in the back of a 2 1/2 ton truck, and SFC 'Gooddeal' Waite, tells me "Smoke that little fat rascal", referring to an apparently young, Vietnamese boy, at the roadside; I hestitated, he grabbed my rifle, and empties a mag, then stops, about forty yards short.
'C'mere, as he slaps my head, repeatedly, this is a survival lesson".
We walk up to a ten to twelve year old boy, now face down, and Gooddeal cuts the back of the field jacket in two; 38 pounds of two pound D-Blocks, detcord, caps, and clacker; I've been less than 60 days, 'in country'.
"When is the last time you saw a fat 'dink' kid"?, he asked.
Fair question; the answer, "Never".
The beginning of my education, we decapped, then confiscated, the explosives, but it was the start of my awakening; he was a fair mentor, he made me think, in ways the army never did. His perception was totally visual, in that he would 'step off' for a moment, and look at the total image, and pick out the flaws, then address them, as necessary.
One of my favorite movies is "Valdez is Coming", about an old Mexican man, on a 'mission'.
If you have not before watched it, do so; If you have, watch it again!
It pretty well states my position, in life.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by stash247

We walk up to a ten to twelve year old boy, now face down, and Gooddeal cuts the back of the field jacket in two; 38 pounds of two pound D-Blocks, detcord, caps, and clacker; I've been less than 60 days, 'in country'.
"When is the last time you saw a fat 'dink' kid"?, he asked.
Fair question; the answer, "Never".

Yeah, I remember similar incidents as well, particularly one involving a young girl, maybe 16 or so (as you know, it was hard to tell with the Viets), and it had a similar outcome. This one had can of Coke in one hand she wanted us to think she was trying to sell . . . and an American pineapple frag in the other, with the pin pulled and the safety lever held down, hidden under her outer clothing. Sgt. Macauliff, who was standing next to me at the time, spotted her approaching and took "appropriate action." I thought he had lost his mind until he knocked me to the ground, hit the ground himself, and the grenade went off maybe 40 feet away. It was a bitch of a war, Terry.