Iver Johnson Revolver Questions

[trapnbow]

Gentlemen,

I am new to the forum and am excited to see that we have some serious firearm expertise. I am researching an Iver Johnson revolver much like the ones that are being discused in this forum and I would appreciate assistance from the group. Please be cautious with these early IJ as many of them are for use with black Powder Cartridges Only!

Can some one tell me the date of manufacture and the value of the revolver described below:

Iver Johnson safety Hammer (Hammer the Hammer Model)
Top of barrel has Iver Johnson Machine and Cycle Works, Fitchburg, Mass U.S.A.,
38 Caliber, 5 Shot
S&W Cartridge
Black Powder
Double Action, with exposed hammer
Serial Number, 69406
On Grip Butt, Pat Aug 25.96
Pats Pending
This revolver has not been fired and is in near new condition. It also has the original box and cleaning brush. I have attached images to assist with the identification.

Thanks, trapnbow

[b.goforth]

before i comment much on this revolver (which is a third model) i will need to know the serial number and letter code found on the left side of the grip frame (remove the grips to see). the third models large frame 38 caliber hammer revolvers were serial numbered starting a C1 to C99999 (1909-1917) and H1 to H94250 (1918-1941). even C69406 (1912) is to high a serial number to be in a box marked 'for black powder only" or even "for black or semi-smokeless powder" as some of the one manufactured 1909/1910 era were marked.

questions, do you have proof this box and this gun have been together all their life and does the cylinder hold 5 or 6 rounds?
bill

[trapnbow]

Thank you for your prompt reply. I will check the serial number under the grip tonight and promptly send it to you. The cylinder is removable and holds 5 rounds. We are pretty confident that the revolver and box have been together from the beginning. This firearm is a family heirloom that came to me from an elderly lady whose father owned it. She is well into her 80's. However, your serial number research should prove the point.

You assistance is really appreciated and I will get back to you promptly with the correct S/N. The serial number that I provided was found on the trigger guard.

Thanks, trapnbow

[trapnbow]

Well, I have removed the grips and see that the real serial number is: C69406 If your research of the S/N is correct, we now have a problem with the associated box. The revolver fits in the box so perfectly that it is difficult to image that it is not the original box.

I have attached photos of the S/N, Box Top Cover, Inside Cover Label and Cylinder for your review. Please see references to, "Use Black Powder."

Also note that the revolver is nickel plated but that the trigger guard is blued and the hammer and trigger are case hardend.

Your opinion on the revolver is much appreciated. With this new information are you still convinced that it is a, Third Model. Also, what is your educated quess as to the date of manufacture and the value in unfired condition.

Thank you again, trapnbow

[b.goforth]

the serial number listings for the third model as shown in my book are from factory records, so there is no guessing. there is also no guessing about the model, only third models used the coil hammer spring. third model large frame 38 S&W caliber safety automatic hammer revolver serial number C69406 was manufactured in 1912, there were 9,500 of this model manufactured that year. all third model safety automatic revolvers are considered safe with smokeless powder if in shooting condition. in 1911 the u.s. navy purchased 1500 of this model for issue to u.s. navy tug boats and i don't think the navy would purchase revolvers that were safe only with black powder at that late date.

the label on the inside and out side of the box are of the types used with very late production second models revolvers (1905 thru 1908). box labels on early production second models (1896-1899) did not mention powder at all and middle second model production (1900-1904) had the black powder statement but used a illustration of the revolver itself on the label. also the slogan "hammer the hammer" was not used until 1904. as i stated yesterday boxes used in 1909 and 1910 era stated "use black or semi-smokeless powder" and boxes after that (1911 and later) made no mention as to the type of powder to be used. the 1910 catalog went to great lengths to point out the differences between the old model (second model) and the new model (third model) safety automatic revolvers, use of all wire and coil springs and the use of 'valadium steel'.

it is my opinion that this box is for the late second model (1905-1908) and is not original to this revolver. also my opinion considering the condition this revolver is in it is worth about $250 without the box.
bill

[trapnbow]

Bill,

Thank you so much for this research! You are a master of these Iver Johnson firearms. Please explain briefly how you became such an expert. Were you employed at the factory, etc?? Your detailed explaination is overwhelming even to a research hound like myself.

Now knowing what the revolver is, I will market it without the box and perhaps the box has a separate value to a collector who has a, "late producton, Second Model," and who wants a box.

I really appeciate the effort and want to extend an invitation for lunch or dinner if you are ever in the Northeastern Massachusetts area. I would be upset if you did not write me (Private E-mail) to arrange to meet. Finally, if there is any research or errand that I can so for you in this area please do not hesitate to ask.

I will keep you posted on how the sale proceeds if the revolver is sold.

Best regards, trapnbow

[b.goforth]

i have been studing and collecting iver johnson firearms since the late 1970's. i visited the factory in 1983 (after the move to jacksonville arkansas) where i was given copies of all the information they had left on the prewwII firearms. this inculded the serial number listings that were the basic of my first book on iver johnson revolvers (published in 1993). the new iver johnson book has all the information in the first book plus much more.

how far are you from fitchburg, ma. i visited there in 1999 and was surprised at the lack of knowledge the historical society had about iver johnson (they were located in fitchburg between 1892 and 1978). i also visited the site of the iver johnson factory on river street, it was broken up and owned by different companies by then but most of the old building (built before 1892) were still being used. i also visited the iver johnson family home (which is so large it was being used as a school then) i believe it is located in lancaster, ma. while i was in the area i also visited the gardner, ma H&R factory. in gardner i met with the H&R factory general manager who started his career in the firearms business with iver johnson in 1961.

i have plans to visit again but retirement income and long trips don't go together very well and for the time being all i have are the plans.
bill

[trapnbow]

Bill,

Thank you for the historical information and I now understand how you are so knowledgeable about the revolvers. I live about an hour from Fitchburg and my brother actually lives in Gardner. LOL

The forum is a great web site and I am very lucky ot have found it while doing the research for this revolver. I have already posted my first new post.

Thank you again for all of your help and I will keep you posted on the future of this, Third Model 38.

Please remember my offer and write if you decide to visit again,

Best regards,

[Betty1]

Hi folks,

Looking for some information on my Great Aunt Millie's Gin-running Hammerless Iver Johnsons, 32 caliber. I know it is pre WWII from the era of her carrying it around in her beaded bag during prohibition in North Dakota and helping Grandpa steal cars and reselling them in Texas. Great history and if it has no monetary value for trade, it will be a display piece of family (notorious) history. I don't think the weapon has been fired, because the trigger is terribly stiff but still wonderfully smooth in action. There is no cylinder wear, no powder burn, no brass scaring in the cylinder. The blueing has been worn above the grip, probably just due to handling. bottom of triger guard - serial number 16940, no letters infront of serial number. At the butt of handle is a worn or porely stamped first line "AT, Nov 17x". The stamp below that line is difficult to identify characters, but I think the last date is 1919, not sure though. Pictures included. Could someone give me a year and approx. value? Thanks for your help.

[b.goforth]

this is a third model safety automatic hammerless revolver. the third model was introduce in 1909 and discontinued in 1941. the single patent date of nov-17-08 was used between 1913 and 1941. the main serial number is on the left side of the frame under the grips (you must remove the grips to see). this is the location where any letter code will appear. there were only two letter code in use on the third model small frame hammerless 32 caliber B=1909-1918 and I=1919-1941. B16940 is 1910, to early for that patent date so i am guessing it is going to be an "I". serial number I16940 was manufactured in 1922. there were 4,900 of this model manufactured that year.

my best guess as to value in the condition pictured is $140 to $160. original cost in 1922 was $11.50 (the 50 cents extra is for the 4 inch barrel).
bill

[Betty1]

Bill,

Thank you for all your expertise. I will remove those grips (gently) and verify the year. You don't know how delighted I am for the additional information. I am so glad to have found your links and threads.

[DavidS85]

Hey

I have a old 32-5 shot hammerless variantand at the top of the gun it has US Revolver Co. imprinted. The seral number is 18741 i was just seeing if anyone can provide me with more information on it, like what year is the make and how many was manufactured? Thank You

[b.goforth]

he u.s. revolver co. handguns were manufactured by iver johnson's arms & cycle works between 1910 and 1935.

the main serial number location on the u.s. revolver co revolvers is also on the left side of the grip strap under the grips. this is the number and letter code (if present) i need in order to verify the exact year of manufacture.
bill

[OldPilgrim]

Mr Goforth,

I just found this forum and the wealth of info on it that you (and others) have presented. Thank you for all your hard work and knowledge that you so graciously provide to those who post here.

I just bought my first Iver Johnson and am fascinated by it. I have read this whole thread and learned a lot about it but there are a few questions I still have.

Here's several pictures I took:












I plan on buying your book very soon, but can't wait to get the answers on this beautiful gun!

When was it made? There are no patent dates on the gun anywhere

I've seen no mention of 'western' grips anywhere in this thread. Are these rare? They screw on from the bottom with one large screw.

I took them off and the number under them on the frame is the same as that on the trigger guard...and that written on the inside of the box cover.

It does have the coil spring so I know it's a 3rd model. But (I forgot the picture) the frame under the grips is not cut out nearly as much as those pictured on other threads

The box is very tired on the right end especially. But as you can see the labeling is very good. Seems the inside label is a generic one for all models since it mentions the .22.

Value of the gun? As you can see it is in very good shape, bluing is excellent everywhere. Just a turn ring to indicate it has had a little use.

Box/brush? Value, if any?

I got it for $142.50 (it's a long story) so I don't think I got screwed.

I will be looking for more IJ's as they seem to be a great value for us poorer collectors.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[b.goforth]

this is a very nice revolver and there is an interesting story that goes with it.
the serial numbers for the large frame safety hammer automatic revolvers stopped at H94250 in 1941. iver johnson stopped all civilian handgun production at the end of 1941. during the war every thing that was a complete handgun was sold to either the british, the dutch or the u.s. government with most of them going to the british. after the war the 22 supershot sealed eiight was the only top break revolver put back in production. the 22 supershot sealed eight uses a modified safety automatic revolver frame. after the war there was on hand at the factory a limited supply of 38 caliber barrels in 4 and 5 inch lengths plus some 38 caliber cylinders. it is estimated that about 2000 (of what is called the safety automatic hammer revolver fourth variation were made up (so far no serial number over H96250 has turned up) in 1946/1947. your revolver is one of those.

the grips on your revolver are not quite the same "western" as advertize on the end label. they are the standard grips for the 22 supershot sealed eight. the 'western' attaches to the frame the same but is not quite the same as these. in fact the box is one made for the 22 supershot sealed eight with a safety automatic revolver label attached, hense the mention of 22 caliber. your box is just as interesting to me as your revolver as i have never seen one but do have a couple of the 4th variation revolvers in my collection. rarely do you find an iver johnson box with the revolver serial number on it.

i hope i have not bored you with this long answer
bill

[OldPilgrim]

Bored? You gotta be kidding me!!!

Let's see if I understand, as you got me a bit mixed up with the 22 stuff thrown in there.

It is a 1941 frame that was assembled to a left over 41 barrel and cylinder in 1946 and had 22 grips put on it and put in a 22 box with a 22 label inside and a 38 label outside. THe label doesn't describe the grips perfectly.

It appears the grips are original, do you think so too?

It's considered a 4th generation gun.

Is that about it?

Does that make it a mongrel, a less desirable piece or the opposite?

What would you say it was worth?

Thanks for the info. I bet you didn't have that info in your head and had to look it up !

Dennis

[b.goforth]

not quite; it is a 1946/1947 manufactured frame and internal mechanism with 1941/42 manufactured barrel and cylinder. the grips are original (they are the same as used on the 22 supershot sealed eight). the box is what they had available adapted for this revolver. there is no doubt in my mind it like the grips are original to the revolver.

i am not quite ready the label this a fourth model, for now i am going to stay with third model 4th Variation.

in my opinion being one of only 2000 or so made it is very desireable. you got a bargin at under $150.00. that is what i paid for the last one of these i bought and it does not have a box and only about 80% condition.

actually the only thing i had to look up the the highest serial number for this variation. i have a picture of a third model 4th variation on page 49 of my book.
bill

[OldPilgrim]

thanks for the clarification.

Here's a pic of the grip part of the frame. Note it is not like trapnbow's above.



thanks very much for taking the time to respond to my questions.

[b.goforth]

this type of grip frame is the same as the post wwII 22 supershot sealed eight. it was one of the first clues that there was something different about these 2000 or so 38 centerfire revolvers. i still don't know how many for sure were manufactured because of the lack of post WWII records available.

the only difference between the frame of your revolver and that of a 22 supershot sealed eight manufactured during the same time is the firing pin.
bill

[OldPilgrim]

Seems like I have a real production mongrel !

Thanks for all the very interesting info.

I am definitely ordering your book.

[wcook]

After reading all the messages in this thread I think the pictured Iver Johnson revolver, that was my Grandmother's, is the following. It is a Second Model since it has the safety trigger. Produced in 1905 since it has an "O" proceeding the serial number (33796). The patent dates are JUNE 16.96 and AUG 25.98 (the 98 could be 96, hard to tell).

It has high wear so I suspect it may have been used with smokeless ammo at some point. At any rate it is going into a shadow box as a family keepsake.

Please correct any of the above. Are there any images of sales or catalog information used when the weapon was produced and sold? Any idea of the original cost (approx.)? What would have been common cartridge designation when the revolver originally sold.

This is a great thread! Thanks in advance for all I have learned from just reading the thread.

Bill

[b.goforth]

you did a good job of figuring this revolver out, but with only the two patent dates this one was most likely manufactured in 1906 or very late 1905. i do not have a 1906 catalog but i do have a 1905. here are three pages from that catalog that i believe will answer most of your questions.





sorry they are so large
bill

[wcook]

Bill,

Perfect!!! The catalog pages will make the presentation much more interesting and thanks for the additional information of the manufacture date based on the patent dates. Your wealth of knowledge of Iver Johnson Arms is immense.

I suspect this pistol went with my grandmother in the wilds of the territory of New Mexico circa 1910 where my grandfather was working on building Elephant Butte Dam on the Rio Grande River. It probably dispatched more than a few rattle snakes.

Thanks again,

Bill

[DanNala]

What a site!

Granddad passed away back in the mid 70s and passed down several guns. One being an Iver Johnson 5 Shot Hammerless Revolver. On top of the rib it states: Iver Johnsons Arms & Cycle Works, Fitchburg, Mass, USA. Serial # is "J" 41147 with a single flat spring inside the grips. Owl facing towards the barrel.

I'm assuming this is a second addition but would like to if I can get a bit more info.

I am thinking this pistol is a 38 but noticed just a few post back there is an ad for a 5 shot 32 cal. Can the Serial # help with that info also?

Thanks ahead of time.

[b.goforth]

you are correct this is a second model. the correct model name is large frame second model 38 caliber safety automatic hammerless revolver. the large frame 38 caliber second models were manufactured between 1896 and 1908. the "J" letter code was used in on the hammerless second models in 1903,1904 & 1905. this revolver serial number J41147 was manufacture in 1904. there were approx. 33,000 manufactured that year. all safety automatic revolvers were manufactured for black powder cartridge pressures and should not be fired with modern smokeless ammo.
bill