Sturgis shooting: cops v. Hells Angels

[KING64]

At this time there is not enough information made public to really come to a definitive conclusion regarding the shooting inside a bar in Sturgis during the annual motorcycle rally. The information so far "indicates" an altercation took place between members of the Iron Pigs, a motorcycle club made up predominantly of police officers, and members of the well known Hells Angels. It appears an off duty Seattle officer shot and wounded a member of the Hell's Angels.

The points of this story that stand out in my mind are as follows:

Do police officers have a right to form a motorcycle club? Certainly they do.

Do they have a right to enter a bar wearing their colors when they know there will be so called "outlaw" M/C club members present? Again, yes they have that right.

Did it show good judgment on the part of the cops M/C club to wear their colors into the bar under those circumstances? Absolutely not, IMO.

There are many professions that require good judgment and common sense. Paramount among professions requiring good judgment and common sense is law enforcement. These officers, IMO showed neither.

It also appears the officer who did the shooting carried a firearm into an establishment where liquor was sold and consumed. Again, not only bad judgment but a violation of the law.

We of the law enforcement community do not need officers who display such a lack of common sense and judgment.

[catfish83861]

Maybe I am just (as you are) prone to believe that an individual is innocent until proven guilty let me say the following. Bad judgment, most definitely. Illegal to carry his weapon into the establishment-don't know if it is illegal in Sturgis or not! Besides we do not know if the off duty officer was consuming alcohol or not. Did he just walk in to use the bathroom? In that type of arrangement I think I personally would have stayed out of the bars. Like you said,too many unanswered questions at this time. catfish

[raveneap]

Have to agree, need more facts. To go in just for the hexx of it would seem to indicate a lack of judgement but I'l wait till all of the story's out.

[KING64]

The information I have read is that the law in Sturgis is similar to the law in many jurisdictions, including Washington state, making it unlawful to carry in a place where alcohol is sold and consumed. In Washington state a police officer is permitted to be armed in an alcohol establishment only when on duty and on official business.

[satellite66]

I'm of the mind that the cop should be getting the benefit of the doubt.

[Crpdeth]

http://www.fortmilltimes.com/124/story/251612.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ava...giscop10m.html

[KING64]

Originally Posted by satellite66

I'm of the mind that the cop should be getting the benefit of the doubt.

I would agree to the extent of the information that is now available. My points had more to do with judgment than the facts known at this time.

If any of you have been to Sturgis during the rally you know what an absolute circus it is. Thousands and thousands of motorcycle enthusiasts of all persuasions; the good, the bad and the ugly. I was there a couple of times in years past and found it interesting but not necessarily to my liking. To many people and an overwhelming feeling that it was a powder keg ready to blow at any time.

[h2oking]

What most people don't undrestand is that a much too large percentage of so called law enforcement members are nothing more than legalized hoodlums. I mean just the name "Iron Pigs" says it all. Who besides a punk ass thug would belong to some club with that name. I would hope that the idiot who did the shooting would at the very least be treated by the courts as if he weren't in law enforcement. In other words don't treat him anymore harsh or cut him slack just beccause he is a cop. Why should he be able to armed into a bar of all places just because he is a cop and hasn't been convicted of a felony YET. Just looking at the Rodney King thing with that many cops not being able to subdue him without beating him half to death is rediculous. Or the San Bernardino sheriff beating the piss out an illeagal who wasn't resisting and whose only crime was riding in the back of a pickup truck. The best one I saw first hand and it was never publicized. Two 16 year old boys stole a twin engine Cessena from El Monte airport and flew it to and landed at the Apple Valley airport. 4 San Bernardino Sheriff's armed with AR15 rifles started shooting at the the kids just as the plane lifted off right over a housing development wounding both boys who still managed to get the plane back to El Monte with over 30 bullet holes some going through the fuel cells. The two boys were looking to just for a joy ride and thank God they got the plane back. All charges were dropped against the boys as to not amplify what the idiot cops did. I will close by saying a good cop is worth his weight in gold but the sad thing is there are not enough good ones.

[KING64]

Originally Posted by h2oking

What most people don't understand is that a much too large percentage of so called law enforcement members are nothing more than legalized hoodlums.

A broad and totally inaccurate statement.

With respect to the M/C club name "Iron Pigs" it is not, in my opinion,the best name for a law enforcement M/C club. The one I preferred was "Blue Knights." A much better connotation.

A little history is needed here regarding the word PIG as it relates to law enforcement. This term was coined back in the 60's/70's as was applied to law enforcement officers by the anarchist types. Law enforcement officers then adopted the word with the addition of PIG=Pride, Integrity,Guts and was found on such things as belt buckles, patches, etc.

Certainly there are incidents of misconduct among the law enforcement community but no more than with any other endeavor or walk of life.

If you will note, h2oking,it was I a thirty year LE veteran,who first brought this Sturgis incident to this forum, in a rather critical manner. The day has long passed when all LEO's would cover or excuse misconduct by one of their own. It was finally realized that such conduct and behavior was detrimental to a profession we had chosen and loved. Misconduct can be cited every day but such is the exception among LEO's rather than the rule.

[azsigman]

If there is anything that makes my blood boil, it is some obvious "cop hater" running his mouth every time an LEO gets into trouble, ie:
"What most people don't undrestand is that a much too large percentage of so called law enforcement members are nothing more than legalized hoodlums".
I suspect that you tend to judge others by yourself. As a retired LEO, I had to take that garbage when I was active. But, not anymore. If these comments offend your gentle sensibilities, ....tough.
The VAST majority of my brothers would, and do, lay down their lives for you and others like you and ask for nothing in return. Calling " a much too large percentage" thugs reveals more about you than you think.

[Vladimir]

The iron pigs are generally not good guys.

The officer indeed broke the law, it is in fact a felony to carry a weapon while wearing colors into a bar in South Dakota.

[KING64]

I am no longer riding and am not familiar with the Iron Pigs. It has been my understanding the club is made up predominantly of police officers but also has a fair number of firefighters as well. Not my choice of club name for a LE/FF organization.

I am aware that in SD the law is similar with respect to carry in an alcohol establishment but am not aware of the of the law with respect to colors while armed. It would figure there may be a section as such simply from the notoriety of the annual rally. As I mentioned, I have been to the rally twice some years ago and it is truly a spectacle. Although there has not been a shooting (to my knowledge) in quite a few years the physical altercations were pretty common.

[Crpdeth]

Sigman, I share your frustrations....

I have managed to somehow make friends with many local officers/detectives etc... I have permission on the private PD rifle/pistol range, a privilege that most will never have, I esteem LEOs very highly, just under our service men and women. I have not always been a "good guy", I have made my fair share of misjudgments especially as a young man, but always looked up to these folks, always showed at least a little damn respect for someone who has taken an oath to protect my life. but I do understand where the disrespect comes from with some people... They say one bad apple spoils the bunch, a very old saying that holds a lot of water. I know of officers who drink and drive while off duty because they know their brothers wont pull them over, I had one brag to me about opening his crotch rocket motorcycle up at 2:00 am, through town, past a radar check just to see what the officer on duty at an old abandoned gas station would do when the "blur" when by...

Sadly, it is those few, who abuse their authority, who ruin it for the 99% who are doing things by the book.

In the unfortunate case that we are discussing here, I have to side with the thread originator in the way that I want more facts before passing judgement...Was the Hells Angels guy armed? Was deadly force justified in a bar with 500 others present?

H20King, I hope you realize that your attitude very closely resembles the closed mindedness of those that would say "anyone owning a gun is a bad seed" as they fight to strip us of our rights...I know that there is a very small chance of changing your mind on a discussion forum, but I submit that yes, there are those few dumb asses in ANY organization that we could name, but because of LEOs "as a whole", I can sleep peacefully tonight.


Crpdeth

[358 winchester]

I wasn't there so I can make a judgement call without a lot more FACTS

[h2oking]

KING64: I knew when I wrote this I was going to catch flak but I am not a "cop hater" (azsigman) if I were I would not have made the statment that a good cop is worth his weight in gold. Now for a history lesson and if the truth hurts live with it. Since you made mention of where the term P.I.G. came from and I do too, let us remember Columbine where 2 kids heavily armed had their way with their classmates and teachers while the guys with the guts body armor and guns stood by for over an hour doing nothing until the kids took thier own lives. I don't think it was a very courageous act when the FBI agent killed Randy Weavers wife shooting her in the head through the screen door of her home while she held her baby in her arms. Look at what your beloved law enforcement did at Waco. It took 30 days for all those lay down their life brothers of azsigman's, cowards to me, to kill 85 men women and children. 30 days went by and no one from LE said wait a minute what are we doing? Like it or not the Gestapo were "state police" and not soldiers, the picture at the interment center in Auschitz bares this out. About 10 years ago on Good Morning America the retired chief of police of Minneapolis said that over 50% of cops in that department were not any better than the people they were arresting and he said the problem was nation wide. I have first hand knowledge, in the late 60's and early 70's I had a small gunshop in my garage and most of my customers were cops. At that age I have to admit it was fun hanging with them going on patrol and such. However, very soon I got a real education on how brutal some of these guys could be without any reason other than just to show off to one another. I rode with LAPD who supposedly was the best disciplined of all and if you choose to recall about 10 years ago had hit squad and those in it had a cowboy hat tattoo. If my memory serves it it was LAPD's Newton Division. As I also recall 10 or 11 cops from that one station alone went to prison and it got out of hand because thier "BROTHERS" closed their eyes. Again I am not saying that all cops are bad but I stand by my statment there many more bad ones than anyone chooses to believe especially another cop.

[Vladimir]

I'm not waiting for any facts. My dad knows 4/5 (the other he doesn't know his name so he probably knows him too) of the Seattle officers involved. My facts come pretty direct.

Just as I believe those of us who carry concealed have a responsibility above others (to avoid contributing to a violent confrontation for example), so do cops. Quite simply they shouldn't have been there, in colors, involved in the fight, and carrying.

[BillP]

Federal law now permits almost all active police officers to carry a firearm without regard to State or local laws. This is one case in which cops do have a "right" that ordinary citizens don't have. The law includes retired officers but as yet the states have not worked out how to implement the requirements of the federal legislation so that part of the law is on hold.

[KING64]

Crpdeth, in your fourth paragraph you raise the same questions that are in my mind. First of all, the carrying of a firearm in a bar violation. Bad judgment by anyone, particularly an LE. Second, was lethal force justified? The simple fact you may be getting the crap kicked out of you in a fight is not justification, IMO, to employ lethal force without some other factors being present. Even before the prohibition of carrying in an alcohol establishment I NEVER went to a bar while carrying a sidearm unless I was on duty and in the process of an investigation. Two things that do not mix with drinking.....driving and firearms.

Regarding the "look the other way" attitude of officers toward another. In the past that was fairly common. It may vary at this time by locations but it is my experience that it has almost become a merit badge for one LE to make a justified bust of another. Particularly true in DUI and of course, domestic violence, where officer discretion is prohibited by law.

[Vladimir]

Originally Posted by BillP

Federal law now permits almost all active police officers to carry a firearm without regard to State or local laws. This is one case in which cops do have a "right" that ordinary citizens don't have. The law includes retired officers but as yet the states have not worked out how to implement the requirements of the federal legislation so that part of the law is on hold.

Originally Posted by KING64

Crpdeth, in your fourth paragraph you raise the same questions that are in my mind. First of all, the carrying of a firearm in a bar violation. Bad judgment by anyone, particularly an LE. Second, was lethal force justified? The simple fact you may be getting the crap kicked out of you in a fight is not justification, IMO, to employ lethal force without some other factors being present. Even before the prohibition of carrying in an alcohol establishment I NEVER went to a bar while carrying a sidearm unless I was on duty and in the process of an investigation. Two things that do not mix with drinking.....driving and firearms.

I believe in most areas cops are not obligated to follow most carry laws (such as no guns in bars). However, I believe the felony charge does stick. If the cop hadn't been in colors it wouldn't probably have mattered, since he was I believe he IS still responsible for the law. This is my understanding, and though I consider myself a fan of John Grisham I am no legal expert.

Regarding the "look the other way" attitude of officers toward another. In the past that was fairly common. It may vary at this time by locations but it is my experience that it has almost become a merit badge for one LE to make a justified bust of another. Particularly true in DUI and of course, domestic violence, where officer discretion is prohibited by law.

This still goes on to a degree, but, with respect to area, if a cop gets in big doo-doo he is getting busted. My dad was also friends with the Seattle cop who got busted a few years back after destroying his squad car on a drunken rampage or something like that, it was a terrible situation, and he DID get busted for it. Most cops are going to let their local friends off with a warning when they get caught going 10 over on the highway. If they wrap their car around a light-pole after passing out, in most areas they aren't going to find a very friendly response.

This is an issue that has become pretty big in Washington state. Some in our state patrol has a hard time with this "other cops are my friends" kind of mentality.

One of my dads friends, off duty, stopped and aided a trooper in a fight on the side of the road. Very likely saved his life. 10 years later the same trooper pulls this officer over, and after bitching the guy out for speeding gives him this lecture. 'And yes, I do recognize you, I am going to let you go this time, but consider us even.' Most the troopers aren't this way, but an unfortunate number are.

I can say even as a cop's son I tend to be able to get away with minor speeding stops and such. It's pretty common knowledge where I need to be extra careful. The state highways are one of those areas.

It might piss some people off, but its really the only perk they get. No stock options, no company car, no cute secretary, but they might get out of a ticket or two. It doesn't mean they are like out there cruising at 90 because they know they can get away with it.

[KING64]

[quote=BillP;341271]Federal law now permits almost all active police officers to carry a firearm without regard to State or local laws. QUOTE]


First, I will have to go back and read H.R. 218 but to my recollection H.R. 218 states that the nationwide CWP IS governed by applicable state laws, i.e., liquor establishments, school grounds, at least with respect to retired officers. Law already permits ON DUTY/ON BUSINESS officers to carry in those prohibited areas. With respect to part of H.R. 218 being "on hold" you will have to enlighten me on that. H.R. 218 is operative and many departments are issuing the permit pursuant to that law. In my case my retired status commission IS my CWP and a short reference to H.R. 218 is printed on the retired status commission. As you know, for the nationwide CWP to be valid a retired officer must be qualified annually and the applicable ID must be updated annually.

[Crpdeth]

Why do I get the feeling that this is going to be a loooong thread.

Good stuff guys...Thanks for keeping it civil.


Crpdeth

[Vladimir]

At dinner I got more info...

Originally Posted by KING64

First, I will have to go back and read H.R. 218 but to my recollection H.R. 218 states that the nationwide CWP IS governed by applicable state laws, i.e., liquor establishments, school grounds, at least with respect to retired officers. Law already permits ON DUTY/ON BUSINESS officers to carry in those prohibited areas. With respect to part of H.R. 218 being "on hold" you will have to enlighten me on that. H.R. 218 is operative and many departments are issuing the permit pursuant to that law. In my case my retired status commission IS my CWP and a short reference to H.R. 218 is printed on the retired status commission. As you know, for the nationwide CWP to be valid a retired officer must be qualified annually and the applicable ID must be updated annually.

My dad says he thinks this is the case. Even if not legally, by department regulations most are prohibited from carrying when drinking.

He also says almost every cop who isn't an Iron Pig thinks they are morons because they are embarrassing (because of events like this). Someone mentioned the Blue Knights, he says they do exist, and when they were started they went to the Hell's Angels and said that they were starting a club, and they wanted to know what they could do to keep out of conflict with other gangs, they were told how not to arrange their patches to be ignored (they don't follow the standard three patch arrangement). Some of my dad's friends are real into riding and avoid any bar any Iron Pig is in because as he puts it, NO one gets along with the Iron Pigs because they are cops, and most cops want to avoid trouble even before it happens so they walk the other direction.

The Iron Pigs may be cops, but they like to dress up like common thugs. They wear the right patches, they have the same initiation (the club owns all the patches, you have to find a sponsor to join, etc. etc.) if they want to be common thugs, let them. But they shouldn't be trying to do it while they are officers. Just like a federal agent or such, they are always on duty. Uniform or not, they are always representing police officers everywhere.

Whether they are legally responsible or not is interesting, but not the point. They should have known better, they are supposed to be not just functioning contributing citizens, but also the ones who enforce the law.

[KING64]

h2oking I am sure you have observed or factually heard of the type of incidents you describe. It is not my intent to counter the fact that cops do get in trouble and do commit acts for which they should be held accountable.

My point is, let us put this in perspective. In the last four or five years in the area in which I live I can recall five doctors (MD's or DDS') being arrested and convicted of felony violations, sexual in nature, committed against their patient/victims. Does this mean MOST doctors do this. Hardly.

I do not doubt that in any geographical area an LE may give a warning rather than a citation to another officer who is guilty of minor traffic infractions. But let them skate on DUI, reckless, etc.? Not likely, at least in my area. In a neighboring county several months back an off duty officer was arrested TWICE within a 24 hour period for DUI. He was booked into jail, not simply cited and released with another driver, both times. He is also no longer an officer.

[h2oking]

KING64: With all due respect I fully understand that people from all walks of life do bad things, as an example just look at the catholic church and what it has paid through the years in damages, so I am not singling out police officers. What I am saying is that I beleive from my own experiences that there is a much higher percetage of bad cops than most people want to believe. The stage is set, give a man a gun and some power and it can easily go to his head and as such I believe because of that stage and nothing else is why I believe more bad apples float to the top. I am going to post a reply for the benifit of azsigman because I once put my life on the line to save a cops life that I did not know and I would do it again in a minute.

[h2oking]

I am going to make a guess at the year and say it was about 1970. While I had my little gun repair and bluing shop in my garage I was a full time operating engineer and the repair shop augmented my income during the rainy season of S Cal. Early one moring I went to the yard which was located at the end of a dead end street in the industrial part of Irwindale just off the 605 freeway. It was a long street and as I entered the yard I first heard a siren and when I looked in my rearview mirror I could a little blue Ford Rancharo coming towards the yard hell bent for leather with an El Monte cop hot in pursuit. How I knew it was El Monte they are the neighboring city who at the time had white cars and Irwendale had black and whites. Both the Rancharo and the cop car went past me with Rancharo not able to go any farther came to rest at some heavy equipment. There were three hespanic males all trying to get out there little Ford only to be faced with the cop sporting an Remington 870 short barreld shotgun. He ordered the three to put their hands on their car and spread thier legs which they all did, then the unbelievable happened. The officer laid the shotgun on the hood of his car pulled his duty gun and handcuffs and proceeded to the three. He got about half way there when one of suspects made a break for the shotgun. Luckly I got to it first. But here is the problem. I now have a cop pointing his duty gun at me and I got another guy trying to take the shotgun from me. I managed to keep the shotgun knocking the suspect to the ground. The cop for a second or two just stood there until I said hand cuff those two assholes and I will shoot this one if he moves. The suspect must have believed me because he didn't move a muscle. Within minutes cops came from everywhere LAC sheriffs, CHP etc. These three suspects were members of the Mexican Mafi and had just minutes ambused an El Monte detective with a 22 rifle who was in a crosswalk on his way to breakfast not far from the El Monte police department. His name as recall was Officer Long he survived his injuries but had to spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair. I got a real cool letter from the cop shop but it got lost in one of my many moves over the years. So I don't want to hear from azsigman that I hate cops I never wrote anything here that suggest that but I still stand on my statement that among various groups, Law Enforcement has a higher percentage of bad apples, one which in my experience that is much higher than most people would believe. My experience also includes working as a private investigator in a few of high profile cases catching several cops in lies and tampering with evidence that actually caused some guilty to go free, the cops lies turned the jury off. One of the first things I would look at is the credibility of the cops involved in the investagation and the chain of evidence. I never will forget one case where the FBI examined a bullet and wrote a report as to what the bullet was and what gun it came from. A year and a half later the cops in order make a case needed the bullet to change caliber and the gun which it did by the same FBI examiner who did it the first time, he changed it to fit but I caught him at.