Is there a major difference Between..... - The Firearms Forum

Tony Mig · 08-08-2003, 03:59 PM

the Romainian trainer .22LR rifle, and the CZ-452 Trainer....?

They look similar, both come with iron sights, and the stocks look the same.......

I'm just wondering if it would be worth waiting a few more weeks til I got the scratch to buy the CZ, or just jump on the Romainian trainer at $49.95, and risk getting one with a beatup stock, and a burnt out barrel......

Smokin Guns · 08-08-2003, 06:50 PM

Tony, Give the CZ a try!...if ya don't like it, i'll work out a deal with ya!...

Tony Mig · 08-08-2003, 08:19 PM

Damn SG....what happened to your face......you used to look like the outlaw Josey Wales....now you look like G.I. Joe......

The way I figure it...if I get the Romainian trainer, I might be unhappy if they send one that's pretty beat up.....(and rumor has it that most of the good one's are already gone).

If I hold out for the CZ, I doubt I'll be unhappy....brand new rifle...if there's anything wrong with it, it'll be CZ America's problem, if it's up to thier reputation.....no problem....I'll keep it.

One thing though, CZ is a little light on displayed specs on thier website....does the trainer come with a notched reciever to accomidate scope mounting......?

z537z · 08-08-2003, 10:06 PM

I don't trust most of the cheapo Romy's kicking around, so I went ahead and paid the extra (about 100 bucks once shipping was done) for the one that had pictures of it on an auction site. It was worth it I think. It's in A+ condition, and that matters to me a lot.

I'm fairly sure the CZ's all are grooved for recievers. The Romanian is a mixed bag, unfortunately. It's not the same gun depending on which year it was made and where. Mine is a later model (1988), probably accounting for its being so nice. Its "grooved reciever" isn't grooved, but rather a 90 degree angle cut (it's not back cut for anything to secure onto) cut into it, who knows why, maybe they had something else planned. Anywho, others have better rails, though they're still very narrow and only a few rings fit them. Plus they're probably not the most reliable thing. I put down the 40$ to get mine drilled and tapped and I think it was worth it.

The Romanian is an accurate rifle and I love it (see my postings on the "leetle shooters" forums: It will probably group a dime at 50 yards with decent ammo and a better rest setup and scope than I have), I've only done about 1". The CZ is a VERY accurate rifle, and you'll be pleased with it. That'll be my next one if the Romy ever fails me.

Between the two the Romy's a better value, but on the grand scale of things the CZ is a darn good value and a damn fine rifle.

Either will make you happy, just depends on how nice and shiny, new, and crazy accurate you need.

By the way the Romy's got nice sights, but the front dot is rather large (probably 2mm across), which makes it pretty useless for aiming at things squirrel sized beyond 25 yards. I hear the CZs factory sights are very good.

_z

armabill · 08-09-2003, 01:39 PM

CZ, you won't be sorry.

Tony Mig · 08-10-2003, 07:42 PM

Thanks for the feedback guys.
I'm still in the "ask questions and reaserch" mode, haven't made my mind up one way or the other as yet.
I've got my eye on many different rifles, and which ever one I end up getting will depend on finances.
So far I've narrowed my intrests down to either a bolt action...
CZ 452
Romainian Trainer
Ruger 77/22
Savage
Marlin

or, semi-auto.....
Ruger 10/22....(prefferably the target model)
TC Benchmark Classic

or lever action.....
Henry Golden Boy

and if something comes my way in a .22 Mag that I like.....

So many guns, so little money.......

armabill · 08-11-2003, 06:54 AM

I think that the CZ would be better than the Trainer, just my .02 worth.

JohnK3 · 08-11-2003, 01:32 PM

Been enjoyin' the CZ Scout (shortened version of the 452) that I bought for the kids to use. (and for ME to hunt squirrel with!)

This is one DARN nice rifle! At under $200, it's a great bargain!

Tony Mig · 08-12-2003, 04:52 PM

I've heard nothing but good things about the CZ's, and if I go with a bolt action, that's probably the direction I'll go.

I'm still eyeballin' a used Ruger 10/22 for $150.00 with a cheap POS scope mounted on it.
If I go in that direction, I figured I'd replace the scope right away, and shoot it a while stock. Then come Christmas time, I can get the wife & kids to buy me a 20" Green Mountain target barrel, and a Houge stock. The gunsmith that is selling the gun has the trigger kits in stock, and will do the work for next to nothing for me.

So many options......I just want to pick my poison carefully since money is tight, and I'll have to live with my choise for a long time.

Of course if I ever have a yard sale and clear out all the excess crap I have around here I could probably buy both rifles.......

Smokin Guns · 08-12-2003, 05:28 PM

Tony, Go ahead and get the Ruger 10/22 T...then let's take that scope off and put a Simmons 3x9x50 on it ($34.95 Wal-Mart)...and let's get started!...

z537z · 08-14-2003, 06:43 PM

Hey if you're lookin to grab up a rifle right now, I say go for the 10/22. Myself I'd pick the CZ just because I hate the feel of the Ruger, but either rifle will last you for life.

Trigger kits are nice, and cheap. Especially in your case! Go for it! It's really all you'll need for that rifle.

I'm off to college soon, which means no more shooting, minus a few weekends home, for 28 more weeks of school! Arg!!!

I'll see what I can do to get shootin sometime soon. Maybe a B-day range session with the guys?

_z

JohnK3 · 08-15-2003, 09:43 AM

Take a look at www.cz452.com and check out Eric's trigger kits for the CZ 452 series. They're $9.00 a piece. The owner of the range that I go to for rifle shooting liked my little Scout so much, he's buying one for himself. When I told him about the trigger kit, we made a deal: I buy him a trigger kit and he'll install mine.

Minor gunsmithing for nine bucks. Can't beat that with a stick, these days!

The kit consists of three or four springs, so you can adjust the trigger pull, and two brass bushings to help eliminate creep. If you want to reduce/eliminate overtravel, the Fuzzy Limey instructions (links are on Eric's page) for the trigger kit also mention roughing up a part and adding some epoxy to deal with that issue. I don't mind the overtravel, so I'm just looking to reduce the creep and lighten up the trigger.

armabill · 08-15-2003, 10:36 AM

I used the spring kit and am well satisfied with it. You'll really be surprised at how good your trigger will be. Well worth the money.

Tony Mig · 08-16-2003, 03:24 PM

Either way, I just set myself back a ways on purchasing a .22 rifle.....
I just blew my gun savings on a bulk order of .40 S&W to feed the Beretta 96FS......

Another gun I keep looking at..(besides the CZ 452, Rommy, and the 10/22)...is the Henry Golden Boy. I picked this gun up a couple of times at one of the local stores, and it's one impressive firearm. I like the classic look, the heavy octagonal barrel, and the action is smooth as silk. Can't say anything about the trigger pull, as they wouldn't let me dry fire it, but it's got my attention......

Talked to a fellow that has a little shop a few miles from here that has 4 Romainian Trainers on the shelf...but he wants $129.95 for them....when I mentioned that I thought his price was a little steep on them, he replied that these are pretty clean, and they come with a spare mag.......still, when you see them in Shotgun News for $49.95......

I figured if he pays 50 bucks for one, plus another 15 for delivery, that's 65 dollars he's got invested in each gun...(if he bought 4 or more at once, he probably paid less)....but even at 65 bucks cost, he's pulling in a 100% profit on each Rommy he sells....sorry, but I ain't paying that much for a beat up military training rifle that's over 20 years old.........

Oh'....and I forgot to mention, I'd also be responsible for 6% state sales tax, plus a 15 dollar charge to the state of NJ for a background check on top of that $129.95.......

z537z · 08-20-2003, 04:30 PM

Why I live in Maine!

Yeah you'd be getting jacked out of 40 bucks with those Romies.

Damn nice trigger kits for the CZs!
Man I gotta get one of those.

_z

JohnK3 · 08-21-2003, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by z537z
Why I live in Maine!

Yeah you'd be getting jacked out of 40 bucks with those Romies.

Damn nice trigger kits for the CZs!
Man I gotta get one of those.

_z

Now have two trigger kits. Gotta head out to the range this weekend to see Chief and drop off the Scout and the trigger kits.

(BTW: put the Butler Creek flip-caps on the Scout's scope yesterday. The new Bushnell 3X9 scope with the rear focusing ring is a bit tough to fit, had to use a #20 eye and push pretty hard to get it to fit.)

keppler · 08-29-2003, 07:28 AM

I have a CZ Trainer and it shoots good...real good. The only drawback with using a scope is the stock. With this style of stock, it has so much drop that I have to hold my head up completly off the stock to see thru the scope. The iron sights are pretty good and the rifle functions flawlessly. The trigger kits make a world of difference and are easy to install. I used the CZ scope mounts I picked up at a gun show. You'll have to watch the height of the scope mounts as most scopes will hit the rear sight if they are not tall enough and it dont look like it would be easy to remove the sight. You can probably find a scope that would fit better but I was using some I already had.

08-29-2003, 08:42 AM

The Henry Golden Boy is a sweet little gun. Henry has a nice smooth action on the lever 22s.

Have you picked up a Marlin model 39 lever action 22. You just might fall in love. They are hands down the BEST in style, looks and feel. Plus they shoot good.

Tony Mig · 08-30-2003, 02:46 PM

Nah' Piggy, I never did look at any Marlins as yet, but once again I've changed directions on you guys since I'm looking to buy a Springfield M1A as my next gun purchase.
This is not to say that I won't be buying a .22 rifle, just won't be anytime soon.....but when I do get the chance to buy one, I'll have to take a look at the Marlin's before I buy anything....

Marlin · 09-09-2003, 07:15 PM

Tony, I agree with Piggy although I must admit to being prejudiced, but you wouldn't go wrong with the Marlin 39A.

I've shot one, literally, all my life, since I was 6 years old, that's 61 years, and wouldn't trade either of them for all the tea in China, as the saying goes.

JohnK3 · 09-15-2003, 01:31 PM

Keppler, we had the same problem with the Scout when we first took it out to the range. The stock just doesn't have enough of a comb to work with the scope. Chief fixed that by cutting a piece of foam pipe insulation and placing it on the stock. Katie shot a very tight three-shot group after the foam-comb went on. Later on, I bought an elastic ammo carrier that fits on the stock of a rifle and put it over the foam-comb. Looks neater and doesn't slip off that way.

Cliff · 09-17-2003, 12:42 PM

Will either of these two guns out-shoot the Ruger 10-22? Or will it even come close?

keppler · 09-17-2003, 09:59 PM

Thats a good tip John. I'll have to try that next time I take it out. Thanks

Cliff · 09-18-2003, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony Mig
the Romainian trainer .22LR rifle, and the CZ-452 Trainer....?

They look similar, both come with iron sights, and the stocks look the same.......

I'm just wondering if it would be worth waiting a few more weeks til I got the scratch to buy the CZ, or just jump on the Romainian trainer at $49.95, and risk getting one with a beatup stock, and a burnt out barrel......

It took my smith 13 days to go from order to delivery. He ordered the gun, 3 mags, cleaning kit, sling for $130. Below is what he said:
Cliff,
The rifle bore is great. Looks like new. I called your background check in today, it took a second agent, but it was approved then. Did not have to wait for a call back this time. Any time you can come by, just give me a call.

The rifle looks great. I will be home every night but will be out with the Scouts this weekend, till Sunday noon. I have printed my own forms so would rather you fill it out here. Let me know when you plan to come by and I will be sure to be here. I can pre-qualify you on the background check from the information that you filled out last time.

He had sold 4 before mine making it the 5th. He has shot all of them and said they shoot nicely. Hope so. Probably should have paid $50 for a stock for my old Glenfield Model 10 Chimpmunk. Single shot bolt. Was still a decent shooter.

08-08-2003, 03:59 PM	#1
Tony Mig Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Sorprano State Posts: 716	Is there a major difference Between..... the Romainian trainer .22LR rifle, and the CZ-452 Trainer....? They look similar, both come with iron sights, and the stocks look the same....... I'm just wondering if it would be worth waiting a few more weeks til I got the scratch to buy the CZ, or just jump on the Romainian trainer at $49.95, and risk getting one with a beatup stock, and a burnt out barrel...... __________________ "I solemnly swear to tell the truth as I know it, the whole truth as I believe it to be, and nothing but what I think you need to know." New Jersey Politician's oath of office O /\ (( -------------v- -->

08-08-2003, 08:19 PM	#3
Tony Mig Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Sorprano State Posts: 716	Damn SG....what happened to your face......you used to look like the outlaw Josey Wales....now you look like G.I. Joe...... The way I figure it...if I get the Romainian trainer, I might be unhappy if they send one that's pretty beat up.....(and rumor has it that most of the good one's are already gone). If I hold out for the CZ, I doubt I'll be unhappy....brand new rifle...if there's anything wrong with it, it'll be CZ America's problem, if it's up to thier reputation.....no problem....I'll keep it. One thing though, CZ is a little light on displayed specs on thier website....does the trainer come with a notched reciever to accomidate scope mounting......? __________________ "I solemnly swear to tell the truth as I know it, the whole truth as I believe it to be, and nothing but what I think you need to know." New Jersey Politician's oath of office O /\ (( -------------v-

08-08-2003, 10:06 PM	#4
z537z Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Maine, love it or get the heck out Posts: 598	I don't trust most of the cheapo Romy's kicking around, so I went ahead and paid the extra (about 100 bucks once shipping was done) for the one that had pictures of it on an auction site. It was worth it I think. It's in A+ condition, and that matters to me a lot. I'm fairly sure the CZ's all are grooved for recievers. The Romanian is a mixed bag, unfortunately. It's not the same gun depending on which year it was made and where. Mine is a later model (1988), probably accounting for its being so nice. Its "grooved reciever" isn't grooved, but rather a 90 degree angle cut (it's not back cut for anything to secure onto) cut into it, who knows why, maybe they had something else planned. Anywho, others have better rails, though they're still very narrow and only a few rings fit them. Plus they're probably not the most reliable thing. I put down the 40$ to get mine drilled and tapped and I think it was worth it. The Romanian is an accurate rifle and I love it (see my postings on the "leetle shooters" forums: It will probably group a dime at 50 yards with decent ammo and a better rest setup and scope than I have), I've only done about 1". The CZ is a VERY accurate rifle, and you'll be pleased with it. That'll be my next one if the Romy ever fails me. Between the two the Romy's a better value, but on the grand scale of things the CZ is a darn good value and a damn fine rifle. Either will make you happy, just depends on how nice and shiny, new, and crazy accurate you need. By the way the Romy's got nice sights, but the front dot is rather large (probably 2mm across), which makes it pretty useless for aiming at things squirrel sized beyond 25 yards. I hear the CZs factory sights are very good. _z __________________ "The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success." my pics

08-10-2003, 07:42 PM	#6
Tony Mig Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Sorprano State Posts: 716	Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm still in the "ask questions and reaserch" mode, haven't made my mind up one way or the other as yet. I've got my eye on many different rifles, and which ever one I end up getting will depend on finances. So far I've narrowed my intrests down to either a bolt action... CZ 452 Romainian Trainer Ruger 77/22 Savage Marlin or, semi-auto..... Ruger 10/22....(prefferably the target model) TC Benchmark Classic or lever action..... Henry Golden Boy and if something comes my way in a .22 Mag that I like..... So many guns, so little money....... __________________ "I solemnly swear to tell the truth as I know it, the whole truth as I believe it to be, and nothing but what I think you need to know." New Jersey Politician's oath of office O /\ (( -------------v-

08-12-2003, 04:52 PM	#9
Tony Mig Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Sorprano State Posts: 716	I've heard nothing but good things about the CZ's, and if I go with a bolt action, that's probably the direction I'll go. I'm still eyeballin' a used Ruger 10/22 for $150.00 with a cheap POS scope mounted on it. If I go in that direction, I figured I'd replace the scope right away, and shoot it a while stock. Then come Christmas time, I can get the wife & kids to buy me a 20" Green Mountain target barrel, and a Houge stock. The gunsmith that is selling the gun has the trigger kits in stock, and will do the work for next to nothing for me. So many options......I just want to pick my poison carefully since money is tight, and I'll have to live with my choise for a long time. Of course if I ever have a yard sale and clear out all the excess crap I have around here I could probably buy both rifles....... __________________ "I solemnly swear to tell the truth as I know it, the whole truth as I believe it to be, and nothing but what I think you need to know." New Jersey Politician's oath of office O /\ (( -------------v- Last edited by Tony Mig; 08-12-2003 at 04:54 PM..

08-08-2003, 06:50 PM	#2
Smokin Guns Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: "Gun Culture Members Clubhouse"... Posts: 4,463	Tony, Give the CZ a try!...if ya don't like it, i'll work out a deal with ya!... __________________

08-09-2003, 01:39 PM	#5
armabill V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Glenolden, Pa. Posts: 166	CZ, you won't be sorry.

08-11-2003, 06:54 AM	#7
armabill V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Glenolden, Pa. Posts: 166	I think that the CZ would be better than the Trainer, just my .02 worth.

08-11-2003, 01:32 PM	#8
JohnK3 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,636	Been enjoyin' the CZ Scout (shortened version of the 452) that I bought for the kids to use. (and for ME to hunt squirrel with!) This is one DARN nice rifle! At under $200, it's a great bargain!

08-12-2003, 05:28 PM	#10
Smokin Guns Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: "Gun Culture Members Clubhouse"... Posts: 4,463	Tony, Go ahead and get the Ruger 10/22 T...then let's take that scope off and put a Simmons 3x9x50 on it ($34.95 Wal-Mart)...and let's get started!... __________________

08-14-2003, 06:43 PM	#11
z537z Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Maine, love it or get the heck out Posts: 598	Hey if you're lookin to grab up a rifle right now, I say go for the 10/22. Myself I'd pick the CZ just because I hate the feel of the Ruger, but either rifle will last you for life. Trigger kits are nice, and cheap. Especially in your case! Go for it! It's really all you'll need for that rifle. I'm off to college soon, which means no more shooting, minus a few weekends home, for 28 more weeks of school! Arg!!! I'll see what I can do to get shootin sometime soon. Maybe a B-day range session with the guys? _z __________________ "The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success." my pics

08-15-2003, 09:43 AM	#12
JohnK3 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,636	Take a look at www.cz452.com and check out Eric's trigger kits for the CZ 452 series. They're $9.00 a piece. The owner of the range that I go to for rifle shooting liked my little Scout so much, he's buying one for himself. When I told him about the trigger kit, we made a deal: I buy him a trigger kit and he'll install mine. Minor gunsmithing for nine bucks. Can't beat that with a stick, these days! The kit consists of three or four springs, so you can adjust the trigger pull, and two brass bushings to help eliminate creep. If you want to reduce/eliminate overtravel, the Fuzzy Limey instructions (links are on Eric's page) for the trigger kit also mention roughing up a part and adding some epoxy to deal with that issue. I don't mind the overtravel, so I'm just looking to reduce the creep and lighten up the trigger.

08-15-2003, 10:36 AM	#13
armabill V.I.P. Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Glenolden, Pa. Posts: 166	I used the spring kit and am well satisfied with it. You'll really be surprised at how good your trigger will be. Well worth the money.

08-16-2003, 03:24 PM	#14
Tony Mig Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Sorprano State Posts: 716	Either way, I just set myself back a ways on purchasing a .22 rifle..... I just blew my gun savings on a bulk order of .40 S&W to feed the Beretta 96FS...... Another gun I keep looking at..(besides the CZ 452, Rommy, and the 10/22)...is the Henry Golden Boy. I picked this gun up a couple of times at one of the local stores, and it's one impressive firearm. I like the classic look, the heavy octagonal barrel, and the action is smooth as silk. Can't say anything about the trigger pull, as they wouldn't let me dry fire it, but it's got my attention...... Talked to a fellow that has a little shop a few miles from here that has 4 Romainian Trainers on the shelf...but he wants $129.95 for them....when I mentioned that I thought his price was a little steep on them, he replied that these are pretty clean, and they come with a spare mag.......still, when you see them in Shotgun News for $49.95...... I figured if he pays 50 bucks for one, plus another 15 for delivery, that's 65 dollars he's got invested in each gun...(if he bought 4 or more at once, he probably paid less)....but even at 65 bucks cost, he's pulling in a 100% profit on each Rommy he sells....sorry, but I ain't paying that much for a beat up military training rifle that's over 20 years old......... Oh'....and I forgot to mention, I'd also be responsible for 6% state sales tax, plus a 15 dollar charge to the state of NJ for a background check on top of that $129.95....... __________________ "I solemnly swear to tell the truth as I know it, the whole truth as I believe it to be, and nothing but what I think you need to know." New Jersey Politician's oath of office O /\ (( -------------v-

08-20-2003, 04:30 PM	#15
z537z Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Maine, love it or get the heck out Posts: 598	Why I live in Maine! Yeah you'd be getting jacked out of 40 bucks with those Romies. Damn nice trigger kits for the CZs! Man I gotta get one of those. _z __________________ "The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success." my pics

08-29-2003, 07:28 AM	#17
keppler Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eastern Oklahoma Posts: 645	I have a CZ Trainer and it shoots good...real good. The only drawback with using a scope is the stock. With this style of stock, it has so much drop that I have to hold my head up completly off the stock to see thru the scope. The iron sights are pretty good and the rifle functions flawlessly. The trigger kits make a world of difference and are easy to install. I used the CZ scope mounts I picked up at a gun show. You'll have to watch the height of the scope mounts as most scopes will hit the rear sight if they are not tall enough and it dont look like it would be easy to remove the sight. You can probably find a scope that would fit better but I was using some I already had.

08-29-2003, 08:42 AM	#18
warpig Adnanced Senior Member Posts: n/a	The Henry Golden Boy is a sweet little gun. Henry has a nice smooth action on the lever 22s. Have you picked up a Marlin model 39 lever action 22. You just might fall in love. They are hands down the BEST in style, looks and feel. Plus they shoot good.

08-30-2003, 02:46 PM	#19
Tony Mig Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Sorprano State Posts: 716	Nah' Piggy, I never did look at any Marlins as yet, but once again I've changed directions on you guys since I'm looking to buy a Springfield M1A as my next gun purchase. This is not to say that I won't be buying a .22 rifle, just won't be anytime soon.....but when I do get the chance to buy one, I'll have to take a look at the Marlin's before I buy anything.... __________________ "I solemnly swear to tell the truth as I know it, the whole truth as I believe it to be, and nothing but what I think you need to know." New Jersey Politician's oath of office O /\ (( -------------v-

09-09-2003, 07:15 PM	#20
Marlin TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: At SouthernMoss' side forever! Contributor Posts: 13,853	Tony, I agree with Piggy although I must admit to being prejudiced, but you wouldn't go wrong with the Marlin 39A. I've shot one, literally, all my life, since I was 6 years old, that's 61 years, and wouldn't trade either of them for all the tea in China, as the saying goes. __________________ *The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.* *The only criminal class native to the United States is Congress.* Last edited by Marlin; 09-09-2003 at 07:17 PM..

09-15-2003, 01:31 PM	#21
JohnK3 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,636	Keppler, we had the same problem with the Scout when we first took it out to the range. The stock just doesn't have enough of a comb to work with the scope. Chief fixed that by cutting a piece of foam pipe insulation and placing it on the stock. Katie shot a very tight three-shot group after the foam-comb went on. Later on, I bought an elastic ammo carrier that fits on the stock of a rifle and put it over the foam-comb. Looks neater and doesn't slip off that way.

09-17-2003, 12:42 PM	#22
Cliff V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Old Glory,Gloryland, Texas Posts: 124	Will either of these two guns out-shoot the Ruger 10-22? Or will it even come close?

09-17-2003, 09:59 PM	#23
keppler Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eastern Oklahoma Posts: 645	Thats a good tip John. I'll have to try that next time I take it out. Thanks