A note on Old Firearms - Please Read

[dksac2]

As a retired Gunsmith and as a person who collects old rifles, I've been seeing a lot of old guns modified or parts ruined because people don't know how to properly restore them, spray the barreled actions with Gun-Kote or similar finishes. Sporterize them, chop of barrels, improperly polish parts and everything else you can think of.

Please preserve these old firearms, don't modify them or wreck parts.

There will never be any more of the old rifles made. Only so many were produced, it's up to us to preserve the old guns for future generations.

Evertime one is modified, it is ruined as a collectable.

Just my two cents, but if you really love firearms, it's something to think about. I see a lot of history ruined.
I just bought a rifle online that someone butchered, that's what prompted this post. Please think about it. If you have an old firearm that does not mean much to you, sell it to someone who will love it and take care of it.

Want to do some modifications, get a newer firearm and go for it.

Thank You, John K

[BETH]

i'm with u John

[jack404]

John , guilty as charged , when younger we bought hundreds of LE and japanese and german rifles and "sporterised" them, now i've grown i cringe when i see some ..
live and learn .. I coulda used this post 30 years ago mate

cheers to you John

[gdmoody]

You said a mouthful, John. I'm like Jack in one way, I cringe when I see a modified classic (especially a military weapon), I have never been guilty of butchering one, though.

[Alpo]

I understand what y'all are saying, but you need to understand, also.

It's mine. I bought it. I own it. I'm not the custodian of it for future generations - I own it.

If I think it looks better painted pink, I'm gonna paint it. If I think it'll work better, for my purposes, with a 16" barrel and an Aimpoint, I'm gonna chop the barrel and drill and tap it.

I do see guns that people have messed with, and I wish they hadn't. But, still and all, it was their gun. If they wanted to do that to it, it was their right, and we ain't got no business criticizing.

They ain't making any more '40 Mercs, either, but if someone had a cherry one, and wanted to chop it and turn it into a lead sled, when he got done, other car freaks would say, "Cool" - not "You damned butcher". It's the same thing.

[jack404]

Alpo

four of us got together to make a buck on the side , 2 were army 2 were ex..

we bought 500 LE's maybe 200 mausers and a heap of jap rifles, many had the MUM mark

over 6 years we turned em into 22-250's , .223's, .308's , cut down wood, checkered many, blued nickeled and even chromed some for boaties

yes we made a buck it helped put my daughter through school

but none of us had the appreciation we have now , we dont know what damage we have done , what collection we have deprived , we dont know and never will..

i still mod guns but use clunkers or scratch build as bases now , the old military rifles if in one piece deserve to stay that way

[BETH]

i think the next generation should be able to see firearms and not in a book but i do understand what alpo is saying

[dksac2]

I understand the I bought it, it's mine. Why not buy a newer rifle.
It's really kind of a selfish thing. The supply of old guns will get to the point where only the rich can afford them, many are already that way,
50 years from now, I'd still like to see people be able to afford a few old rifles with some real history.
Not all that are chopped up are made by the multi thousands.
The more people we educate about the wonderful history of old guns, the better, and I'm not just talking about military.
Once they are gone, their gone, they will never be made again.

I cringe when I see a sporterized or bubba rifle. If I can get it cheap, I'll restore and sell the parts I can so others can complete an original.

Really think about about it, there are so many new rifles that will do everything better, why not sell the old one to a collector and customize a new one. I just bought a hex Mosin for $80.00 in great condition.
I see the distributors sell out and have to wait for a new overseas shipment, someday there will be no more oversea shipments.
Remember when you could get an 03 A3 for next to nothing, price an original today, it's already happening. I don't want the rich who will be the only one who can afford a older gun, military or commercial.
I have never sporterized a old gun, never will, turned down anyone who came into the shop that wanted an old weapon changed. I'm sure someone did it, just not me. The more who refuse to sporterize or bubba, the better.
Educate the younger shooters and the older guys too.
Not to run you down, but it's mine is a selfish excuse. If you really love firearms, you will know what I mean.

John K

[redwing carson]

If every gun was in fine orginal condition there would be millions of firearms every where. BUT there would be no gun collectors. Every guy who wrecks a nice firearms runs up the value of my collection.Good luck

RC

[Joe M]

I can see both sides of this. However, as gun owners I do believe we have a responsibility to preserve our vintage firearm history for others to enjoy. There are plenty of modern parts available on the market for a person to do a build up rather then destroy a part of history. Unfortunately vintage firearms have fallen into the catagory of our "throw-away" society we live in. This is to bad for when we throw away history - we throw away a part of ourself.

[LDBennett]

Sorry, you collector guys, but I buy guns I want to shoot. If there is a problem with the way a gun works for my shooting conditions I change it whether the gun is old or new. When I buy a gun it is MINE to do with as I please. I WILL shoot it and modify it if I choose.

Collectors are the reason so many of these old guns are now out of the reach of the rest of us price wise. Many of them buy up the guns and never use them just like stamp or coin collectors. When theses collectors side line these old guns they force the prices up and the rest of us get cheated out of using these nice old guns. Just try buying an older gun with "COLTS" or "Winchester" stamped on it! On some you'll need a mortgage on your home and more! Collectors cause this!

At a gun show years ago I bought a Winchester Commemorative Model 94 rifle off a collector. I wanted a 94 Rifle and none were being produced new at the time and this collectable was all I could find. After closing the deal I told the collector I was going to shoot it and he about had a heart attack and tried to convince me to not shoot it without success. To this day I shoot it! That's what it was designed to do. I have not modified it as it does not need modification but would in a heart beat if I felt I could make it better for me.

We all get to choose!

LDBennett

[Bigbill]

I been a surplus military C&R collector for many years now so orginal and untouched is ok with me i prefer it. I plan on shooting everything i purchase too. At least a few times. I do have my favorites that i shoot most of the time.

With that said i was into wood working and cabinet making in my youth. I have purchased some really bad Bubba jobs on the wood finishes and have returned them to there orginal look or as close as i can get them. But in a way very carefully leaving the history marks that tells the piece has seen many battles.

Example; I purchased a very sad looking FN49 egyptian 8mm rifle and i couldn't see any wood grain at all thru the many coat after coats of finish bubba applied over and over it. Why i don't have a clue. I just took some steelwool and all three of four finishes came right off leaving an awesome wood grain stock and handguards. Then i used the behlen solar lux stain till i matched the orginal color which may take one or two coats and then just tung oil after. I did not remove and history marks si it still looks orginal.

I purchased a chilean '95 that bubba got before to it before i got it and took off the orange peel poly finish that bubba did again. It now looks awesome and orginal too.

I also purchased a swedish m94 that was sporterized and put into a spanish stock but the barreled receiver was still orginal. I drove 300 miles and paid $400 to get this early swede carbine. I then found a complete swede m94 stock with all the hardware for $300. After a good cleaning i assembled it back to its orginal condition. I saved another one but at a higher cost and thats ok because the feeling that i saved a treasure makes me feel good.

Being retired my goal is to save as many as i can now when i see them.
Bill

BTW; I kind of laugh when i see collectors post there pics and when i see all the guns posted together the finnish appears to be all the same color and each gun is perfect with very little history marks if any at all. I can tell these guys have redone the wood yet they will preach don't touch them. I figure it must take months of cleaning the wood and steaming it to get the dings and dents out of the wood before they refinish it. This just isn't me.

Now i don't want a perfect looking surplus gun if i did i'd buy a new modern gun. I just want to reverse what bubba did were i can.

Saving a bubba job is good but leaving an orginal alone is even better.

I went from the surplus stuff to the modern guns to the turn of the century 22cal rifles now. I'm finding the same bubba finishes again.

[mr.t7024]

dksac2 is absolutely correct!

[mr.t7024]

I am with ya John K, but I will add this, if u have no clue what your doing ask for help. I have seen to many firearms destroyed because BYG'S, that means backyards gunsmiths!

[Hawg]

I've sported a few military rifles. It's an expensive undertaking with no resale value. I didn't do any of them for resale. I did it because (1) I grew up in a time when sporting a military rifle was the best way to get a decent hunting rifle. (2) My rifles will shoot circles around anything bought off a rack bar none. (3) Most military rifles made since the turn of the century don't appeal to me at all. I'm happy with the two I have left and have no regrets about stripping them down to the actions and tossing the rest. Grinding off stripper clip humps, drilling and tapping, replacing bolt handles, new barrels, stocks, etc. I could have bought three factory made hunting rifles for what it cost to build one of mine. I'm a lot happier with mine tho. If it ticks people off, well I really don't give a dead rats patoot

[LDBennett]

There is more to this hobby of guns than collecting. There is shooting and home gunsmithing. If I choose to modify MY gun then it is nobodies business but mine. And I really don't care what any collector thinks.

Right on Hawg!

LDBennett

[Bigbill]

I'll try to post some before and after pics in the future. Bill

[Brisk44]

I've always loved and appreciated the old military arms and have a few myself. Some years ago I had a fire and some of these guns were damaged. The ones I could restore I did, the ones I couldn't I cleaned up and made usable. There was one Turkish Mauser that was in exceptionally bad shape, and I was unable to restore it to it's earlier shape. Now admitedly maybe if I had thrown money at it I might have been able to, but hey I'm not wealthy so I took a gun that would have been destroyed if turned in to the insurance co. and turned it into a sporter. I replaced it's burnt up stock with a synthetic one polished the metal up and reblued and chopped the barrel. Now to me that is a better fate than being destroyed. Now you may say why didn't you just give it to somebody who could restore it. Well I felt it was of more value to me to sporterize it and use it the rest of my life and hand it down to my son to use. Make it a family heirloom.

[dksac2]

Originally Posted by LDBennett

There is more to this hobby of guns than collecting. There is shooting and home gunsmithing. If I choose to modify MY gun then it is nobodies business but mine. And I really don't care what any collector thinks.

Right on Hawg!

LDBennett

I agree, you can upgrade them with better parts when you find them, clean and carefully restore some part IF you know what you are doing and by all means, if safe, shoot and enjoy them.

There is not a safe gun that I have that I will not shoot. Some of the older one's may need reduced loads, but my favotite thing to do is shoot my collectables, I don't have one that I won't shoot. If you can't shoot a collectable because the sights or trigger are not as good as the new guns today, maybe your not as good a shooter as you thought you were. People did great with them in days gone past.

If it were a NIB, never fired, that would be an exception or maybe very rare, but none of my collectables fit that catagory.

They are better than any investment you can get. Keep them 100% original, take care of them and in years to come you will make some bank should you want to or need to sell them.

Me, I hope to leave them for my son, who is also a very responsable gun owner.

To me, hacking up a collectable is just plain selfish, there are so many firearms that are not collectable, if you have a collectable and feel the need to do some gunsmithing, sell it and buy a non collectable beater. There will never be a 10-22 Ruger or an M-77 that will be collectable, same goes for many of the beat up Savage bolt guns (newer).

Leave the collectables for future generations or get one or more and enjoy the history while shooting it, you never know what battle it may have been in, who carried it or how many lives it saved. Kinda neat to think about.
Old commercial guns are great also, I like to think about times past, the first owner out filling the freezer or ice house with some meat. Times when it was easier to do without so many regulations and a necessary way of life. It still is today for many. I'll eat Elk all year long. I'll never touch beef unless the Elk runs out. Backstraps on the open fire, ground up for burgers, we are talking about some darn good eating. Rabbits in the crock pot, you name it. Good healthy food.

My Best, John K

[dksac2]

Originally Posted by Brisk44

I've always loved and appreciated the old military arms and have a few myself. Some years ago I had a fire and some of these guns were damaged. The ones I could restore I did, the ones I couldn't I cleaned up and made usable. There was one Turkish Mauser that was in exceptionally bad shape, and I was unable to restore it to it's earlier shape. Now admitedly maybe if I had thrown money at it I might have been able to, but hey I'm not wealthy so I took a gun that would have been destroyed if turned in to the insurance co. and turned it into a sporter. I replaced it's burnt up stock with a synthetic one polished the metal up and reblued and chopped the barrel. Now to me that is a better fate than being destroyed. Now you may say why didn't you just give it to somebody who could restore it. Well I felt it was of more value to me to sporterize it and use it the rest of my life and hand it down to my son to use. Make it a family heirloom.

Understandable because of what happened. I'm talking about the guy who buys a good collectable then just hacks it up, and I don't care how good a job it turned out to be, the firearm itself is hacked.
Anyone who really claims to love firearms would not do that to a good collectable.
Years gone by when they sold for $30.00, it was understandable, there were thousands, now there are far fewer.

You did right, saving it for the family the only way you could. I would be cautious about shooting it if the stock burnt off, a little charring and it can have absorbed enough heat to ruin the heat treatment of the rifle, could be good or soft.
Having restored many firearms that have been in fires, I pretty much can tell by looking if they will be safe, but used to check with a Rockwell guage to be sure, some were still good, some soft and dangerous.
I hated seeing someone walk into the shop with 20 guns that had been through a fire, even in a fireproof safe, most always they had surface rust.
Made great money from the insurance companys, but as one who loves firearms, I would have passed and rather the owner never had the fire.

My Best, John K

[Alpo]

.

[fuzebox40]

Got me so worked up, just grabbed my 1847 Walker signed by Sam and I'm beating the living shine out of it as we speak! (As if someone died and left me one)
Seriously sounds like we all have our own modus operandi. Personaly, if it's an endangered specie, I'll only consider modification of the finish and if there is little to no value left to its original.
I also pee in the neighbors pool but until it starts turning blue, it's all good.

[permafrost]

I'm somewhere in the middle. I can't stand it when people won't even remove the cosmoline or old shellac for fear of messing up old cosmoline or old shellac! I clean and sand lightly if I want to and use some stock finish. I don't have a problem with people doing what they want. But I do believe if I get a nice old collectable ,I'm gonna' pretty much leave it be, except to clean and make sure its in shooting order. No hatchet jobs, but if I can't shoot it , it's gone!

[Rugermanws]

Well stated, I couldn't agree more.

[Bill DeShivs]

All the old guns were new once. All the new guns will be old later.
Years ago, people bought GI surplus .45s and made match guns out of them. These GI guns were very common. M-1 carbines were cheap-not now.