9MM LUGER VS 9MM PARABELLUM

[DEADEYE1964]

I have a question on a gun my friend just aquired. He bough a Taurus millinium model 111 9mm para ( not the pro model). I went to Taurus' site but could not find the answer. It does not say anything in his manual about luger or parabellum ammo for the gun, it just says not to use more than a 124 grain ammo in it. Will 9mm luger ammo work in this gun ? What are the advantages and disadvantages for both. No where in the manual says parabellum, but the gun is stamped millinium 9mm para.

Thank you,

[22WRF]

One in the same

[pawn]

9mm Luger = 9mm Parabellum = 9x19

[Vladimir]

The only 9mm you gotta watch out for AS FAR AS I KNOW is 9mm Makarov which is 9x18 instead of 9x19.

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by Vladimir

The only 9mm you gotta watch out for AS FAR AS I KNOW is 9mm Makarov which is 9x18 instead of 9x19.

.380 ACP is sometimes listed at 9x17 or 9mm short. You also want to avoid these.

But the answers above are correct; 9mm luger and 9mm parabellum are the same thing.

[poser_pilot]

There is also the 9mm Largo, or 9x23. I dont think Ive ever seen a gun chambered for it that wasnt made by Star or Astra, although there probably are others.

Im sure there are other little oddball cartridges out there in addition to all the ones that have been mentioned here as well.

[jacksonco]

Also the 9x18 mm has a larger diameter than the 9x19.

9x18 = .357 dia.
9x19 = .355 dia,

Then again I could be mistaken or misinformed on this.

But for sure the 9mm Luger and the 9mm Parabellum are the same 9x19 mm

[22WRF]

9mm Largo

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/552015/9mm_largo_the_little_known_cartridges.html

[muddober]

As stated herein many times the 9mm Luger and Parabellum (9x19) are one in the same. I have seen the cartridge referred too in print as the 9mm Parabellum Luger. The word Parabellum in Latin means "for war".

The 9MM Largo (9x23)case appears to be nothing more or less than a rimless 38 Super. I load for a friend of mine who owns a Star in 9MM Largo and I use my 38 Super Comp brass which is also rimless and a bit thicker than normal 38 Super brass. I use a 9mm Luger/Parabellum load of 6 grains of Unique and 115 grain Hornady XTP for his gun and it works well.

[poser_pilot]

Originally Posted by muddober

As stated herein many times the 9mm Luger and Parabellum (9x19) are one in the same. I have seen the cartridge referred too in print as the 9mm Parabellum Luger. The word Parabellum in Latin means "for war".

The 9MM Largo (9x23)case appears to be nothing more or less than a rimless 38 Super. I load for a friend of mine who owns a Star in 9MM Largo and I use my 38 Super Comp brass which is also rimless and a bit thicker than normal 38 Super brass. I use a 9mm Luger/Parabellum load of 6 grains of Unique and 115 grain Hornady XTP for his gun and it works well.

Yeah, I have heard that 9x23 and 38 Super are very very close to the same thing, and its possible to shoot them out of the same gun, although not recommended.

How is your friend's Star? I recall seeing them in Shotgun News for cheap, are they worth picking up?

[Ursus]

There are several cartridges with the 9mm designation: 9 mm Ultra, 9 mm Mars, 9 mm Glisenti, 9 mm Bergman-Bayard...to name a those that easily comes to mind. Those I just mentioned are different between them, and none of them is equal to the 9 mm Luger (Para, 9x19)

[muddober]

Originally Posted by poser_pilot

Yeah, I have heard that 9x23 and 38 Super are very very close to the same thing, and its possible to shoot them out of the same gun, although not recommended.

How is your friend's Star? I recall seeing them in Shotgun News for cheap, are they worth picking up?

I don't want anyone to be misled about what I wrote concerning me using 38Super comp brass for my friends 9 mm Largo. I used the brass but I did not load it to 38 Super comp pressures or even 38 Super pressures as it would I am sure not be healthy for the gun or the person shooting it. The load I used is as I said a 9mm Luger loading of 6 grains of Unique behind a 115 grain bullet that according to my book drives the bullet from the smaller 9mm case at about 1200 fps. My guess is that this load in the larger case would mean that it would run between 1050 to 1100 fps. I shoot a 130 grainer out of my Super Comp gun at 1470 fps which is deep into 357 mag territory. My point being is that you don't want to even get factory 38 Super ammo anywhere close to a 9mm Largo pistol.

The best way to answer your question about my opinion of my friends gun is that just yesterday I gave him a 9mm Daewoo as a gift and told him to shelve his gun and just keep it as one of the war relics his Dad brought home from WWII. By the way the Daewoo in my opinion is hard to beat for the money. I have one in 40 S&W and it like the 9mm it has never missed a beat.

[Bruce FLinch]

OK, So what are the origins of the reference for 9mm Parabellum & 9mm Luger? I assume the 9mm Luger refers to the German pistol. Didn't know the Latins made the Parabellum...

But seriously, what are the origins?

[jacksonco]

Bruce,the Latins did not design the 9mm Parabellum. They stole the design from the Greeks during the Roman Conquests during the First Century BC.

[muddober]

Bruce: jacksonco is pulling your leg a bit. The Latin word "for war" Parabellum has been around for centuries. The 9MM first came about in the 20th century and was designed specifically for the German Luger pistol, hence the name 9mm Luger. How and why the word Parabellum became attached the the gun and caliber I would have to guess was like a descriptive nick name such as "tactical", "delta", "elite" "combat" "special" etc.

[Bruce FLinch]

As long as Jackson isn't yankin my franklin, we're all good.
Kinda funny the Krauts picked up on a Latin nickname for their "war" round. Maybe they figured more people understood Latin than German.

[artabr]

Originally Posted by Bruce FLinch

As long as Jackson isn't yankin my franklin, we're all good.
Kinda funny the Krauts picked up on a Latin nickname for their "war" round. Maybe they figured more people understood Latin than German.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_vis_pacem,_para_bellum

Si vis pacem, para bellum is a Latin adage translated as, "If you wish for peace, prepare for war". The source of this adage remains unknown;[1] however, it is universally believed, rightly or wrongly, to be based on a quotation from Roman military writer Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus: Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.[2] The saying is one of many from or based on his work, Epitoma rei militaris, possibly written around the year 390 AD. It is embedded in a passage that stresses the importance of skillful preparation of military actions (an 'Art of War', so to say) as opposed to mere reliance on coincidence or superiority of numbers:

"Therefore, he who wishes peace, should prepare war; he who desires victory, should carefully train his soldiers; he who wants favorable results, should fight relying on skill, not on chance".


[edit] The parabellum

The main clause of the adage has been used as a motto by German arms maker Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM), and is the source of the term Parabellum as applied to firearms and ammunition.[8] The term is a parallel to the English use of "peacemaker" to mean the Colt Single Action Army handgun and other weapons




Art

[Bruce FLinch]

Excellent Art! You Da Man!

[Ursus]

Originally Posted by artabr

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_vis_pacem,_para_bellum

Si vis pacem, para bellum is a Latin adage translated as, "If you wish for peace, prepare for war". The source of this adage remains unknown;[1] however, it is universally believed, rightly or wrongly, to be based on a quotation from Roman military writer Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus: Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.[2] The saying is one of many from or based on his work, Epitoma rei militaris, possibly written around the year 390 AD. It is embedded in a passage that stresses the importance of skillful preparation of military actions (an 'Art of War', so to say) as opposed to mere reliance on coincidence or superiority of numbers:

"Therefore, he who wishes peace, should prepare war; he who desires victory, should carefully train his soldiers; he who wants favorable results, should fight relying on skill, not on chance".


[edit] The parabellum

The main clause of the adage has been used as a motto by German arms maker Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM), and is the source of the term Parabellum as applied to firearms and ammunition.[8] The term is a parallel to the English use of "peacemaker" to mean the Colt Single Action Army handgun and other weapons




Art

George Luger, designer of the cartridge was the one who named it 9mm Parabellum, for the reason cited above. And because it was Herr Luger's creation it was also known as 9mm Luger. By the way, look below

[phil-this]

don't forget about the make and design of the bullets... It's been a while but hell why not. I learned recently that the few guns made to fire a 9mm kurz will fire the regular 380 auto's made today. So much BS and minutia about the 380 auto doesn't do any damage. It's a 9mm basically and used to be a little harder to find ammo for until this weird concealed firearm boom that is making Bersa, ruger, taurus and other makers of smaller pistols so popular. All I am saying is that when you choose a firearm don't let the guy at the gun counter tell you some story about how the 380 auto is a week round or that the 9mm is wayyyyy better. It's really all in what you like to fire and the 9mm luger and parabellum are just two examples about how the industry likes to confuse people.

[RandyP]

ummm.... 9mm kurz IS .380Auto...

The .380 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) pistol cartridge is a rimless, straight-walled pistol cartridge developed by firearms designer John Browning. The cartridge headspaces on the mouth of the case.[2] It was introduced in 1908 by Colt, and has been a popular self-defense cartridge ever since. Other names for .380 ACP include .380 Auto, 9mm Browning, 9mm Corto, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Short, and 9x17mm. It is not to be confused with .38 ACP.

[Inthewind1976]

9mm Largo is actually "hotter" than 38 ACP, but not a "hot" as 38 Super. The three rounds will GENERALLY interchange, although the firing of the Super in the Star is generally not recommended. Loaded to 9mmP or 38 acp pressures is just about right for the Largo. The Star's chambered for the Largo are extremely well made firearms and very serviceable and of decent quality. The old saw about Spanish pistols being made of "soft steel" results from inexpensive pocket autos and revolvers and frankly does not apply to the superior autos made by Star. Many of us are familiar with the more recently manufactured Star models, the BM BKM, BKS, and PD, and the earlier, large framed models (A, B, Super B, etc) are equally well made and of quality. One local LEO carried a Star BM for many many years as his duty weapon, and I have owned on for quite a long time myself.

[Double D]

So, not at all confusing.....

[JLA]

Originally Posted by jacksonco

Also the 9x18 mm has a larger diameter than the 9x19.

9x18 = .357 dia.
9x19 = .355 dia,

Then again I could be mistaken or misinformed on this.

But for sure the 9mm Luger and the 9mm Parabellum are the same 9x19 mm

Belated correction..

9X18 mak is .365"

9X19 and .380 ACP are .355"

[RJay]

??? What was the original question again"" BTW both Kurz and Corto mean "short" in their respective language of German and Spanish. So 380 ACP is 9MM short in any other language except English.