HK 91, Fn Fal, or M14

[islenos]

Originally Posted by TOOHSOTKIL

Govenment shooting is a wives tale at best never repeated.

Check out the Agricultural Adjustment Act (1933) "...six million piglets and 220,000 pregnant cows were slaughtered...."

My Grandfather died in 1985 or else I would have him tell you first hand how he released his stock. He did however keep his brahmer bull, but that's another story.

[TOOHSOTKIL]

Well you are right, I do remember my elders speaking of this, but it had little effect on the small farmer if any-most slaughtered theirs for food.

But;If that were really where all these new animals came from (1933) then where have they been for the last 75 years?

When were Russian boars brought to this country and what area when introduced? Where have they been all these years?

North Texas had a large release back in the 50`s due to a railroad derailment in bottom land. Thousands of hogs bound to the slaughter house.
Where have they been?

This overpopulation and inter-breeding is somewhat new and within the last ten / twelve years.

........and just as the train derailed, so has this thread. RRR

[cycloneman]

Speaking of battle rifles, i heard a statistic about hog's taking many generations to become domesticated. once back in the wild it only take a few months to become ferrel again. What say ye?

[CampingJosh]

Originally Posted by cycloneman

Speaking of battle rifles, i heard a statistic about hog's taking many generations to become domesticated. once back in the wild it only take a few months to become ferrel again. What say ye?

I saw that on a NGTV program once. I wouldn't be terribly surprised by that fact.

[delta13soultaker]

I knew some Carolina farmers getting paid a handsome amount of federal money to not plant tobacco in order lower competition with import tobacco. I'm thinking the fed bean counters will do about anything if they'll do that.

For wild hogs becoming domesticated, what I know from deer hunting on farms that run hogs where there's also wild hogs...I'd say it's true. A hog don't need people at all...the longer he's own his own the more he'll go back to what he really is...a heavy, hairy, mean, tusked eating machine that will kill for his pack. They are tough adaptable animals. I think though that a razorback is a razorback...it's a bloodline thing and is bred into them. A bear will not harass a grown 'back.

[islenos]

A buddy of mine took in a wild piglet that was all alone after some idiot decided to shoot a sow (that is why I believe in using NV on pigs so that to not shoot a piglets mother or one that is pregnant)

After six months the pig no longer hid when someone came out to feed it. After nine months the pig and my pig hunting Amstaff were rubbing noses through the fence with both tails just wagging away.

He kept digging for freedom, not to rejoin his home boys in the wild but to hang out with a neighbors pigs. It wasn't long before they just gave the pig to the neighbor.

Shame really, I was looking forward to eating that pig

Toohsotkil: West Texas has been a home to wild pigs the moment a piglet escaped the hands of a Spanish Soldado during Coranado’s expedition onto the Llano Estacado in 1541.

I had hunted feral pigs 30 years ago, my father 30 years before that. Wild pigs have always been out there, at least since 1541. The release in the 1930 just added another strain to wilds.


And the best pig hunting battle rifle is......The Fal

[delta13soultaker]

Sounds good and a history lesson too.

I'm a bit more modest on the pork slaying iron...partial to a Marlin 30-30. Not as sexy but it does the job on most terrain.

[islenos]

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

I'm a bit more modest on the pork slaying iron...partial to a Marlin 30-30. Not as sexy but it does the job on most terrain.

I too am a little partial to my Marlin 30-30 but in keeping with the thread I had to throw in the Fal

[delta13soultaker]

Ah okay...yeah I keep not keeping strictly on the thread.

I'm a big Stoner fan...already went into the M4 thing and back to the 7.62mm NATO thing.

So in the AR-10 class...keeping faithful to Stoner style here kinda...and seeing how a M110 type pushes over the 15 lb mark...I'll go with a short HK417...it's not in the class of M110, but it'd get me in touch with the bacon for a few pounds less, and is no slouch if I decided to defend the Alamo

Sorry to keep bringing up the black rifle, it's just what I do.

[islenos]

My big problem with Stoner's rifle is that it $#!+$ where it feeds. Combine with having to carry your own weight in CLP, Qtips and Pipe cleaners. I have treated Fal as bad as my sisters barbies and have never experienced a stoppage, can't say that about my M16. Now a gas piston retrofit......that may just be something worth while.

At this point I guess we just agree to disagree.

[delta13soultaker]

Yeah, agree to disagree.

I've carried Stoner's design all over the planet. I've never needed to carry anything to clean or lube it that I wouldn't need for an M14, L1A1, or whatever. A modern military M16/M4 requires cleaning no more frequently than a 1911.

Every self-loader s***s where it feeds. All of them spew carbon like a coal powerplant. 30+ years ago there was a combination of factors that made fouling relevant. Those factors are long gone. I watched the gas pistons get fitted to the AR a long time ago...it sounds good as a sales pitch to civilians and gov contracts, but if my M4 is 100% reliable all I hear you saying is you want to add more weight to a weapon I already have to bulk up with a CCO, PEQ-2, light, etc.

Civilian AR's are built too tightly in the search of the holy accuracy grail. But it's the same practice as carrying a target pistol for self defense. A military M16/M4 is loose and keeps on going while civilian AR is so tight it gets sluggish relatively easily. I've cleaned enough sand out of an M4 to seize up a Honda and the carbine wasn't missing a beat. What applies to commercial AR's is not true of military AR designs. What I most often here repeated as truth about the M16 is false and has been for a long time.

Abuse. I've snatched M16's from privates and thrown it so hard the handguards popped off the slip ring. No problem. That would break the stock of an AK47. I've made joe low crawl up in Carolina sand, M16 full of white grit or red clay, and sent him straight into the qual roster to fire his 40 rounds and he did with no malfunction. No problem. We crawled night infiltration course and went straight into stix lanes firing blanks with M16's full of sand. I'll put an M4 against an AK47 anywhere, anytime, for anything.

You don't have to like Stoner's design. But dislike it for the right reasons...the ones in civilian gun stores are usually overpriced rip-offs.

The FAL is hard not to like. It has a closed receiver ( unlike the dirt ingesting open top M14). The FAL tips open and is easy to clean (like an M16). The FAL gas system is one of the few that absorbs recoil like magic.

My experience with FAL family is the select fire. This is where the gas system gets frustrating. It isn't forgiving or dummy proof. When you're getting shot at you have enough problems without needing a degree in ergonomics to use your rifle. To make it worse...somebody out there saves $$ by putting cheap non spec pistons in FAL's. That's my gripe on FAL...great design, often cheapened. Getting one to run can make you want to pull your hair out. I almost threw one into the Tigris River once, but it was a gift for a collector who was an asset to our mission. If you have a good one, love it.

Gonna stop rambling. Take my b****ing with a grain of salt.

[islenos]

My knowledge on M16A1's is decades old, so I must give in to your recent experiences. I personally have had nothing but trouble with the little buggers. I know that I shouldn't let my personal emotions about having a malfunction under fire to cloud my judgment, but it's really hard not to. Lately I have entertained the idea of buying an AR, but that little voice in the back of my head reminds me of a time long ago. So I will try not to be so dismissive of the little black rifle in the future, though it may be hard.

[delta13soultaker]

I see. I think listening to that little voice is probably the path to happiness and peace of mind. Was a blond that first broke my heart as a youngun, ya know when you're young enough to have that happen. Well two more times I ignored that little voice and two more blonds got me again.

Some things that happen, under fire in any sense of the word, they never leave you I guess.

[94z07]

No love for the Steyr AUG?

[copenhagen]

7.62x51mm. I own a PTR-91 and an M1A. Now I just need a FAL. I'll let you know when I bring a DS home how I feel on this subject. So far, I have to say I like the hell and back reliability of the HK-91 system.

[pawn]

I posed a similar question to Stash 247 some time ago"

Terry,

Hello again from Crossville, TN. I hope you are doing well.

I will be coming into some money in July and am looking to add to my firearms collection.

I got me a Yugo M70 last week . I would also like to get a dependable rifle in 308 win. I am leaning towards either a Springfield M1A or an FN-FAL. I think you have considerable experience with both rifles.

I would greatly apprecicate hearing your thoughts regarding each rifle. Thanks in advance for your help.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
My friend, I qualified in Basic, with the M-14, and it is a fine rifle, take no small note of that!
But, not worth a fig in full auto; uncontrollable.
The M1-A obviates that issue, but still has 'bedding' issues, which must be overcome, to acomplish 2"/100 Yd performance, in most cases.
The mags (Military M-14 Mags) are in the $50 range.
My personal choice in an FAL would be an Aussie 'inch pattern' rifle, with the ability to utilse metric mags, in the $10 range, as well as the more expensive 'inch' mags.
Accuracy, at shipment, was below 1.5" at 100 meters, or the rifle did not ship!
My issue rifle, first tour, RVN, was an M-16, then Gene Stoner's Joke. About as reliable as a junkie.
I lost that, real quick, and 'found' an aussie FAL (they call them SLR's) and was happy as a pig in ****!
Bought it with my money, stored it in Jack's office between tours; it came with a Tritium illuminated sight, a marvrelous sight (SUIT, if you want to Google) and a bucket full of rough looking, but fully functional mags.

Close to the end of this tour, I was sent to Texas, to pick up a new 'night vision ' sight, from Varo, in Waco, and haul it back, hand carried, to RVN.
Almost two years before the army published a TM, for it.
But it came, ready to run, excepting 'zero' for my L1-A1 Aussie!
I do not know how many others were so tasked, but 'Charlie' no longer owned the night!
I had superior vision, superior power, and superior accuracy; 'dump a chump', soon became a real tired deal, because it was just 'busy work'.
Mortar pits, and rocket launchers, 600-1000 yds out, became targets of interest, because they were there, and fun to silence, because you could now do it, in the dark!
I never, in three tours, saw a capeable mount, for the M-14, a lot of attempts, but nothing that was reliable, capable.
So I stayed with my 'bootleg' battle rifle, with the suport of my chain of command, which was kinda short, being Col Jack, Lt Gen Hank, and the Joint chiefs of Staff, the only people between me, and the president.
I have shot some of the 'high end' Springfields, and am impressed, this rifle design has come a long way, in accuracy, and scope mounts, in only 50 years, and is today, a fine and accurate rifle!
But I know the FAL, inside and out, and trust it like no other 'Battle Rifle', ever built, because it simply 'cooks', in any environment; my employers saw fit to allow me to use it, on three continents, with some very expensive accessories; they had other options, but liked the results I delivered.
You could not go very 'wrong' with either rifle; both are fine work!
I stay in the FAL camp, sorta because I dance with the girl that brung me; that all the exotic **** fits the rifle, the SUIT sight, excellent Irons, and the PVS-4, in the toolbox, could be a clue, as to why.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

There are many excellent posters in our forum group. IMHO, Stash was a man amongst men- a dear friend and source of seemingly limitless experience and knowledge. He passed on 08-08-2008; I miss him.

-pawn

[LurpyGeek]

Originally Posted by 94z07

No love for the Steyr AUG?

Different class of rifle... unless they make one in 7.62 (they may, I just haven't seen this).

Great info in this thread.

[WILD CAT]

Depending where and who You are fighting. In my early twenties 1975-1976 I saw action against palestinians and leftist groups during the Lebanese Civil War. Our group mostly students and middle aged men was posted most of the time in the mountains, hills and roof tops. We were issued Belgian FALs. rescued from the desintegrating army. I am not familiar with the modern versions of assault rifles but most of our adversaries had AK47. They were street fighters and accuracy and marksmanship was not important to them.
In the beginning they invaded many cities including the most luxurious half of Beirut, they even had in their camps factories where they produced ammo and clone AK47 and G3. Besides FALs and first generation M16 our militia had almost nothing especially ammo which later was provided by Israel.

Encouraged by the initial success, the invaders tried to take a very important christian town on a hill top and surrounded by olive plantations. In the battle that followed the effectivity of the AK47 was really poor in front of the M16s and the AK47 a gift from Israel captured from arabs in former wars. From the hills and roof tops the FALs took the back lines of the invaders while on the lower ground the M16s and AK47 took care of the confused attackers.

I had the oportunity of manipulating the mentioned weapons and first hand experience showed me the following: AK47 is reliable but limited to the number of fighters and their experience the myth of magazines containing 30 or more rounds giving them an edge is a lie. The soldier in action does not count the shots. The M16 of those days were not reliable, jamming, failing to feed properly creating subliminal fear in the fighter and failures I ignore no matter how many rounds he can carry. A simple question, how many modifications has been through since its introduction? I even heard, not sure that the US Forces are considering to adopt the 7.62 Nato due to the poor ballistics of the light 5.56 of the M16. I repeat I`m not sure about this point.

My choice of the FAL is limited to the long barreled full stock which is not designed for street fight. On the other hand the FAC (Fusil Automatique Court) with folding stock fills the gap. The 20 round 7.62 magazine has two advantages. In the first place the soldier takes more care while aiming or choosing his target; in the second place, shoting from a sitting position allows the shooter to rest the bottom of the magazine on his knee which improves considerably his stability and of course his aim.

The caliber 7.62 is on its way to become a legend. name it 308 or Nato and don`t ignore that there are mountains of this ammo all over the world and no matter the load or origin the sturdy gun digest them without hesitating.

Range; No assault rifle can measure to the FAL that`s why it is the choice for most mountain fighters. 300 meters is short range for the FAL. 300 is very hopeful for the AK47, and 400 for the M16.
MAKE MINE A FAL.

[sabashimon]

Tough choice, but of the rifles listed I'd have to go with the Fal, for many of the same reasons that have been gone over here.......however, if I could deviate from the list, I'd have to go with the M4, or more likely the Galil short (Galillone) that I was issued those oh so many moons ago, and is pictured below.
It served me well.
Now....if we can get into bullpups, I'd have to go with the newest iteration of the Tavor. I've shot it, and liked everything about it, plus the guys I talked to that used them during the last go-around in Gaza loved them, with zero complaints.
Oh......and a Merkava.

[Doc1911]

Originally Posted by LurpyGeek

Different class of rifle... unless they make one in 7.62 (they may, I just haven't seen this).

Great info in this thread.

MSAR is working on it - other calibers. But, I still like the regular AUGs ....

Out of the selections given I have owned the HK91. It is a great weapon - but the M14 for me at least is a close second.

[asmotj]

HK-91 I have a Cetme G3 right now and the HK91 is more evolved they are solid and reliable...even in the mud

[WILD CAT]

A hint: When Saddam was overthrown, the middle east black markets were flooded with AK47s made either in the former soviet block or in Irak at the Tabbouk Factory. Some were in poor shape and others almost new. The average price was 45 dollars apiece. At the time a FAL would bring between 300 and 400 dollars and an M16 about the same price depending on condition. All opinions exposed by fellow members are respectable and I consider myself an ignorant in comparison with them. I smuggled the M16 and the AK47 subject because I don´t think there is any doubt that along with the FAL they represent the most used assault rifles in use today. May be I´m wrong but I consider the FAL the ideal weapon for a professional soldier; The AK47 a bit more than a SMG. Now the M16 whatever improvements it went through, is of an inadequate caliber, no matter the fracturing or exploding bullet designs or fps speed.
Recently I had the oportunity of examining but not firing a Galil, impressive looking but how can you improve on the caliber?
At an assault rifle accuracy test of a modern longer version of the AK47 I think it was the AM10 (not sure), the targets were placed at 300 meters and the soldiers were supposedly a carefully selected group. 30 years ago similar competitions were held at 600 meters with FALs and experienced marksmen occasionally stretched it to 900 meters. I really don´t know if am out of my mind or if there is some mystery in the whole business.
With eyesight failing and the "obsolete" tag on my forehead, the assault rifle I mostly respect is my FN 98K in 7x57 for which, right now I´m reloading between sentence and sentence. A warm greeting to you all and especially to those never die of my generation to whom the bolt action springfield, Lee Enfield and Mauser were our introductory course to shooting.

[delta13soultaker]

Thanks for the input.

[WILD CAT]

delta13 soultaker, you´re always welcome, I'm borrowing your slogan: a nation who forgets its defenders is soon forgotten itself. Allow me to add that a nation who ignores its enemies is swallowed by them sooner or later.

[DA5H]

Originally Posted by delta13soultaker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_rifle


I concede your point, but be aware that the role of a weapon system ultimately defines what it is. If you're using an anti-tank gun to shoot helicopters....it is for now anti-aircraft.

A 1918 BAR (30-06) is a squad automatic weapon, yet so is an M249 (5.56mm). A 10" barrel M4 on an A-team is an "assault rifle", but on a personnel security team it is a PDW. Splitting hairs.

Irregardless...

Firstly, learn English. "Irregardless" is not a word. Secondly, this is not "splitting hairs." "Battle rifle" and "assault rifle" are definitive, and well used designations. They have nothing to do with a weapon's "uses," and are defined entirely by weapon specifications, though one is likely to "use" a battle rifle differently than one would use an assault rifle. The point is...you can shoot at a helicopter with a battle rifle and call it an AA gun...but its STILL a battle rifle. The same goes for an AR. These are definitions, not arbitrary designations.