De-Cocking a 1911

[bcj1755]

I have a technical question about the 1911. Does the grip safety engage the trigger only or the trigger and firing pin? IOW, if you have a 1911 cocked, hammer back, and a round in the chamber but are not pressing the grip safety, can the firing pin still strike the primer on the chambered round?

[Bill DeShivs]

Trigger only. The Series 80 guns have a firing pin block. The 1911's half cock notch should catch a falling hammer.

[bcj1755]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Trigger only. The Series 80 guns have a firing pin block. The 1911's half cock notch should catch a falling hammer.

Thanks for the answer. I always wondered about that.

[muddober]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

You guys don't listen- a 1911 hammer at full rest is perfectly safe. The firing pin does not rest on the primer. It is an inertial firing pin.
DO NOT use the half-cock notch as a safety! It was meant to catch the hammer if it slips while decocking or cocking, and to keep the gun from going auto if the sear notch is damaged. If you drop the half-cocked gun on the hammer, the sear can break and the hammer is far enough cocked that the gun can go off.

Bill, please take no offense as I think this is healthy debate because part of what you wrote I agree, in the half cock position the gun is not safe and it keeps the gun from going full auto should the sear take a hike. As for catching the hammer if it "SLIPS" while decocking I do not agree. No way can it catch the hammer because you have to pull the trigger when decocking and that "slip" that you refer too is when the bullet can leave a 6" long pencil mark across the top of your leg. I might add it doesn't help keeping your pants very dry either if you get my drift.

Also while the firing pin is inertia as you said, it does rest against the hammer unlike you said. I realize that the firing pin retainer keeps the hammer from pushing the firing pin forward but none the less the firing pin does rest on the hammer and with spring pressure against the hammer to boot. I am going to do a test tomorrow just for fun and I will report back. I am going to take and old hammer and install it in one of my 1911's. Then I am going to load the chamber with a primed empty and strike the back of the hammer with a small ballpeen hammer. Your guess is that it won't go off and my guess is it might and here is why. The firing pin retainer while seemingly is a solid block has a bit of movement because it is a loose slip fit. That coupled with the firing pin being pushed against the hammer even at rest makes the firing pin see any shock that the hammer sees which might be just enough to fire the gun. Right or wrong I will report back the true result.

Ron

[Bill DeShivs]

Should be interesting......

[delta13soultaker]

Might it not depend when the 1911 was made?

My understanding is post-80 Series and clones have the firing pin block.

That may be mute too though since pulling the trigger is what moves the plunger etc etc.

[muddober]

Bill, here is what happened. I changed the hammer in a 1911 style Kimber. It was an old solid type hammer I used. I put an empty live primed case in the barrel and slowly closed the slide. Holding the gun in my left hand I struck the back of the hammer with a small brass hammer one time and the primer did NOT go off. I removed the case and upon examining the primer I saw it was dented by the firing pin but not nearly enough to the point of causing to go off. I got another primed case and did it again with the exact same result. The dent in primer was very noticeable but if I had to give it a percentage I would have to say it was only about 25% there. I did not hit the hammer with a huge amount of force either time but a least as much I would guess if dropped on a concrete floor. My conclusion after my crude test is that if one had a weak firing pin spring and a bit more slop in the firing pin and extractor retainer plate dropping the gun with the hammer down could set it off. Other life experiences have told me that if there is way for something to happen even though you may not see how it can happen sometimes it does with fatal results.

Just this morning at 6:am I called my gunsmith friend to tell him of my test result that I had conducted at about 5:am. When he answered the phone I could tell something was wrong. Before I had a chance to say much he said you are not going to believe what just happened to me. He said a customer had dropped off a Browning BAR 7mm a few days ago with feeding problems. He said he took the empty clip from the gun and pulled the bolt back to make sure he had a clear chamber and pulled the trigger but the gun fired. For some reason the bolt did not extract the live round from the chamber and the bullet went through the roof of his shop. He told me that in the 49 years of being a gunsmith he has never had a gun go off. At this writing he had not yet had a chance to assess the reason. It is kind of like those of us that fly, we have a saying "there those of us who have landed without putting the gear down and there those of us that have not done it YET". Luckily as for the airplane, I still fit in the YET category. I cannot say the same for the gun as I explained in my earlier post.

Ron

PS: As for a series 80 gun I have no experience with one at all.

[Bill DeShivs]

I agree that a compilation of mismatched and ill-fitting parts can make a dangerous gun. What can happen will, eventually. I have had A/Ds- both through stupidity and mechanical failure. Guns are like driving a car. Eventually you WILL have a wreck. Maybe a fender-bender, or maybe a major wreck. There are factors under our control, and factors that aren't. That's why I say that guns are dangerous. Keep them pointed in a safe direction, but experiment with them. Respect them, but don't be afraid of them. Learn about them. Your experiment is a shining example.
BTW- if you are going to rely on "condition 2" make sure your parts are fitting properly, and up to the task.

[Suwannee Tim]

Originally Posted by muddober

He said he took the empty clip from the gun and pulled the bolt back to make sure he had a clear chamber and pulled the trigger but the gun fired.

When I clear a gun I want to see the empty chamber. Easy enough to do with an auto pistol or revolver, little bit harder to see with a bolt rifle, some auto rifles you have to really look down in there to see. The most important thing of all though is always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. One thing that makes me crazy is to see people point guns at other people.

[muddober]

Originally Posted by Suwannee Tim

When I clear a gun I want to see the empty chamber. Easy enough to do with an auto pistol or revolver, little bit harder to see with a bolt rifle, some auto rifles you have to really look down in there to see. The most important thing of all though is always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. One thing that makes me crazy is to see people point guns at other people.

Tim, from what I understand that is exactly what happened. Like my friend said he will always now stick his little finger down in the chamber and not just rely on 72 year old eyes to look into a deep dark hole which this semi auto rifle apparently has. The worst thing that happened from all of this thank God, is he now has to rplace some tile on the roof of his shop.

Ron

[Montie364]

WHY if you want to lower the hammer drop the mag rack the slide and then lower the hammer. What is the big deal. This is the safest way.

[johnlives4christ]

best i recall, with the hammer down on a live round, the firing pin does not contact the primer.

the reason i used to keep my 45 in condition 2 beside my bed is because in the middle of the night, if i was to grab my gun whilest half asleep, i would be a lot less likely to cock the hammer than to take the safety off, if it had been cocked and locked. taking the safety off is second nature when you pick the gun up, for 2 reasons. first you have to disengage the safety to check to see if it's loaded, something i always do, the other is because you have to disengage the safety to shoot, something i do as much as i can. when you grab a 45, your thumb is naturally on the safety, and proper technique is to have your thumb always on top of the safety. of course everyone has their .02 cents... and a good 1911 discussion is quite interesting in the wee hours of the morning

[aviator_retired]

"THE DAY I WAS ALMOST SHOT" a true story

I was an Army pilot in Vietnam (about 40 years ago) and one of my buddies was standing next to me, in the "ready-room", loading his government issue 1911. I had my head down, doing some paperwork on the table, when I (and everyone there!!) heard the BOOM!! I looked to my right and said, "JACK, THE F*** ARE YOU DOING!!??"

"I was just trying to drop the hammer down with a round in the chamber."

Well, the rest of the conversation isn't worth repeating but,... the bullet went through the wall into the next room... exited that room through the other wall and out of the building. To say the least, everyone was extremely lucky. (especially me since I was standing about 2 feet on his left side. If he'd been pointing it to his left...)

I've had many 1911's since then and, you can bet, I've never even thought of lowering the hammer on a chambered round!

Oh Yes, it's nice to be retired!! ;-)

[Insulation Tim]

Welcome on board Aviator!

[macro01]

carrying a 1911 in condition 2 is scary..i never did condition 2 on my armscor.

[TheGunClinger]

Can someone explain to someone like myself who hasn't ever possesed a 1911 what the conditions are? I mean 1-2-3?? Talk about a newbie!

[woolleyworm]

Originally Posted by TheGunClinger

Can someone explain to someone like myself who hasn't ever possesed a 1911 what the conditions are? I mean 1-2-3?? Talk about a newbie!

Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off. with full magazine
Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied. full magazine
Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down. full mag
Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

The safest way to carry a 1911 is in condition 1; this is assuming that you are "carrying". There's no sense in carrying a weapon that isn't ready to fire as in conditions 3/4. Yes, there are dangers in going to condition 2, if done improperly, the round can discharge. If one prefers to carry in condition 2, then practice, practice, practice and always remember rule #2.

[glocknut]

I don't get this whole subject....

1911 is best kept cocked and locked. If you feel more comfordable with the hammer down...get a Sig P220 decocker model.

mike
gn

[Oldeyes]

Another consideration on the topic of the relative safety of lowering the hammer on a 1911 is related to the type of physical half cock you have on the hammer. Originally, and up through the Colt 70 Series 1911's the vast majority of half cocks on all production hammers were actual captive notches such that if you (while holding the pistol in the right hand) placed your left thumb in front of the hammer and pulled the trigger, the hammer could be made to gently descend into the half cock notch and pretty much stay there. Pushing the hammer back just a bit to clear the half cock notch while pulling the trigger would allow you to lower the hammer down to the firing pin recess area on the slide. And while the sear was setting in the half cock notch even a significant amount of pressure on the trigger could not get the hammer to fall, but potentially dropping the pistol on the hammer while in that condition could possibly shear the half cock notch off of the hammer and discharge the pistol. And even tho that original half cock notch was designed solely as a sear failure fail safe, some perhaps errant folks used that captive style of half cock as a carry safety device. Colt found out and became product liability nervous because it really was not a legitimate safe carry condition. So, along came the Colt 80 Series 1911's with the firing pin block actuated off of the trigger (which increased the felt trigger pull just a bit) and an unannounced new design of non-captive half cock ledge. This new half cock was designed to only capture the hammer fall in the event of a sear failure and to discourage folks from using half cock as a safe carry condition. Once the hammer was resting on this style of non captive half cock ledge, any additional pull on the trigger would cause the hammer to fall against the firing pin causing a potential AD ooops. The point of all of this is that if for some reason you had to, an old style captive sear hammer equipped 1911 could have the hammer lowered as described above with 'relative' safety. The safety of doing that type of hammer lowering with a new ledge style of half cock device was somewhat more suspect. Thus, there was healthy trade that developed in after market for old style full half cock notch hammers. Many of the newer manufacture 1911's have gone back to the captive notch hammer half cock design.

[Doc1911]

Originally Posted by glocknut

I don't get this whole subject....

1911 is best kept cocked and locked. If you feel more comfordable with the hammer down...get a Sig P220 decocker model.

mike
gn

+1

[Insulation Tim]

Back to my original question, how exactly does one leave his 1911 in Condition II ?

[johnlives4christ]

tim. everyone has their own opinions. but to me the absolute best way to decock any gun is to place your thumb between the hammer and the frame while releasing the hammer from it's shelf. then let off the trigger and ease the hammer down. the springfield armory i had, had a notch made to catch a falling hammer and i was always confident in it and never had any trouble.

[Bill DeShivs]

Can any of you explain why the 1911 was designed with an external hammer?

[woolleyworm]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Can any of you explain why the 1911 was designed with an external hammer?

IMO - Reliability and ruggedness.

As far as going to cond 2, I have smaller hands and use the first knuckle of my index finger to block the hammer, then ease down to the web of my thumb as I lower it. I think the thumb is more universally used though.

I'm with GN's line of thinking though and that's why you'll find a P220 at my side. Not so much for the decocker as for the fit and performance that I prefer. There is absolutely no safety issue with a 1911 in cond 1 with proper training and range time; I don't really see any need to carry in cond 2, I think it's there just because it's possible to have the firearm in that condition.

[Bill DeShivs]

Browning designed earlier models with internal hammers......