Home Defense

[TranterUK]

Delta makes some good points as usual. We must not overlook the substantial and proven effect of multiple wounds. Three hits on a person does not have three times the effect, it has ten or twenty times the effect. A sound hit with buckshot will give you that.

I know penetration is an issue, as is the person being shot, perhaps being high on drugs. But as a general rule multiple hits have a dramatically increased effect.

Incidentally, those guys who buy a gun and stick it in a draw without even trying it, are also fit because they have a gym membership. Despite the fact they go once a month if that.

[delta13soultaker]

Multiple hits are good, we all agree.

But there are whole areas of the torso where a 00 buck pellet will have no effect. Or a M43 7.62x39mm bullet for that matter.

This concept of just hitting the torso and calling it good to go is unsound. It is not good to go at all.

But when what works on the cardboard horde fails on the street against aggressive violent threats...we blame A. the ammo and B. the caliber.

We play lip service to Shot Placement. Everyone has a caveat to their little terminal ballistics speech that sounds eerily similar: "With proper shot placement...ha ha." Well what is that?

I've been sent to shooting schools and trained/worked with LE everywhere, from West Coast to the Ukraine, and shared training with foreign services all over. But looking back I realized I always assumed their center-mass was like our center-mass. It isn't. No where save a couple exceptions have I seen center-mass explained as anything but the "A-zone" or "X" or "9-ring" or "between the pockets" or "between the belly button and throat". Some people with SRT background even train it like that.

So I either get looked at like I have a pecker growing from my forehead or a light bulb goes off when I say this.

Center-mass is a small area the size of a paperback novel in the center of the chest, behind the sternum and closest to the spine. It is in the middle of the body from any angle you can look. That is the target.

[UncleFudd]

Delta;
I like your info and approach to making people think. Especially when it comes to aiming or placing shots in extreme, high emotional events.
I too have had the opportunities to train with LEO and even some military as well as several civilian individuals and organizations. I am alive IMHO due to training and hopefully able to pass to my students those things which may help them to survive.
Although my approach is to use everything I/they have to avoid ever having to pull the trigger, it happens, but then what.
For the sake of brevity, I address the thought or idea of "aiming" under this kind of duress.
Even military and police who have specific training, either do not or at best have trouble, aiming.
I have seen the elephant and survived and if my experience is common or normal then I have to say that whatever I did was the result of training, practice and redundancy in both and absolutely nothing to do with "conscious thought". At some point in a matter of nano-seconds, my brain recognized a threat to the existence of my body and began directing me to do whatever was necessary to survive. I do not believe I had a single thought process as opposed to reacting and instinct and as a result of tens of thousands of rounds expended in training and practice and hundreds and even thousands of hours of training and practice and creating and solving mentally the "what if" scenarios, I succeeded.
So trying to imagine actually aiming is great and it is necessary for training and practice, but it will not happen in the actual horrific event.
If anyone doubts my theory, before you shoot it down, study the number of police shootings in any year and realize the number of shots taken vs the number of hits anyplace on the bad guys. You will find the numbers to be less than three in ten rounds that hit meat. It is not unusual for them to expend 20 plus rounds and not touch the BG.
Why, you ask, they train and practice don't they. Ah yes, but realize my friends, NOTHING is working normally when the balloon goes up.
I firmly believe that having the tool available and having thousands of rounds through it for familiarity and hundreds of hours of handling both live and dry fire again for familiarity coupled with the predetermined desire to survive will help.
But if you fail to harden your perimeter and someone actually gets close enough to engage you in a fire fight, your chances of survival are 50/50 at best and hopefully if you are married your spouse is as well trained and versed in the use of the tool, then only 1/2 of your fighting force is available and the other half is a liability.
So IMHO, there is no substitute for training and practice and therefore the desire to succeed and survive make the choice to do both are entirely up to every individual. The gun and ammo alone no matter the caliber will not geter done.
UF
www.caswells.com
i

[Doc1911]

Originally Posted by UncleFudd

Delta;

If anyone doubts my theory, before you shoot it down, study the number of police shootings in any year and realize the number of shots taken vs the number of hits anyplace on the bad guys. You will find the numbers to be less than three in ten rounds that hit meat. It is not unusual for them to expend 20 plus rounds and not touch the BG.
Why, you ask, they train and practice don't they. Ah yes, but realize my friends, NOTHING is working normally when the balloon goes up.

I pretty much agree with you - we normally go back to what we have practiced -

However, being a former LEO (before this in the military ...) I would state that MOST officers have very little ongoing training. Some Dept's qualify quarterly, most semi-annually, and yet others only annually. Therefore, missed shots are indeed very high. I remember one incident of 16 missed shots by an officer - the BG finally just ran away...

It was not until I went to SWAT that "practice" really began - we shot 2-3 times a week - in all sorts of conditions. It was great to have someone constantly critiquing your shooting, etc.

IDPA - if it is a good group - can be valuable as well. Of course, you must have the right mind set for it. You must go into such things not so much to win - but to literally practice "methodology" over and over - even if it means you losing a match - or three.... Winning comes second to methodology ..... but over time you will begin to win as well ... but "win right" ....

[USMC-03]

Originally Posted by Doc1911

IDPA - if it is a good group - can be valuable as well. Of course, you must have the right mind set for it. You must go into such things not so much to win - but to literally practice "methodology" over and over - even if it means you losing a match - or three.... Winning comes second to methodology ..... but over time you will begin to win as well ... but "win right" ....

Doc, I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. I shoot IPDA when I have the chance and have never been in any danger of winning. I view it as self defense practice first and having a good time with a like minded group of shooters. Winning, at least in IPDA, has never been in my mind. Highpower rifle however, that's another matter...

[Doc1911]

Originally Posted by USMC-03

Doc, I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. I shoot IPDA when I have the chance and have never been in any danger of winning. I view it as self defense practice first and having a good time with a like minded group of shooters. Winning, at least in IPDA, has never been in my mind. Highpower rifle however, that's another matter...

Yes, "self defense practice first." IDPA - some of it - is VERY good for practice - as it puts you under stress.....

I use to do long distance rifles as well - eyes aren't so good now, so the AR 15 is the only thing in my bag. With the newer scopes they have out today (along with angle cosign indicators and /or Palm Pilot .... ) I may have to give it another try. It is almost impossible to miss with all the new stuff they have out - and I would like to shoot on another NF Scope or the BORS with Leupold Mark4 4.5-14x50mm - 66000-7WS

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by UncleFudd

Delta;
I like your info and approach to making people think. Especially when it comes to aiming or placing shots in extreme, high emotional events.
I too have had the opportunities to train with LEO and even some military as well as several civilian individuals and organizations. I am alive IMHO due to training and hopefully able to pass to my students those things which may help them to survive.
Although my approach is to use everything I/they have to avoid ever having to pull the trigger, it happens, but then what.
For the sake of brevity, I address the thought or idea of "aiming" under this kind of duress.
Even military and police who have specific training, either do not or at best have trouble, aiming.
I have seen the elephant and survived and if my experience is common or normal then I have to say that whatever I did was the result of training, practice and redundancy in both and absolutely nothing to do with "conscious thought". At some point in a matter of nano-seconds, my brain recognized a threat to the existence of my body and began directing me to do whatever was necessary to survive. I do not believe I had a single thought process as opposed to reacting and instinct and as a result of tens of thousands of rounds expended in training and practice and hundreds and even thousands of hours of training and practice and creating and solving mentally the "what if" scenarios, I succeeded.
So trying to imagine actually aiming is great and it is necessary for training and practice, but it will not happen in the actual horrific event.
If anyone doubts my theory, before you shoot it down, study the number of police shootings in any year and realize the number of shots taken vs the number of hits anyplace on the bad guys. You will find the numbers to be less than three in ten rounds that hit meat. It is not unusual for them to expend 20 plus rounds and not touch the BG.
Why, you ask, they train and practice don't they. Ah yes, but realize my friends, NOTHING is working normally when the balloon goes up.
I firmly believe that having the tool available and having thousands of rounds through it for familiarity and hundreds of hours of handling both live and dry fire again for familiarity coupled with the predetermined desire to survive will help.
But if you fail to harden your perimeter and someone actually gets close enough to engage you in a fire fight, your chances of survival are 50/50 at best and hopefully if you are married your spouse is as well trained and versed in the use of the tool, then only 1/2 of your fighting force is available and the other half is a liability.
So IMHO, there is no substitute for training and practice and therefore the desire to succeed and survive make the choice to do both are entirely up to every individual. The gun and ammo alone no matter the caliber will not geter done.
UF
www.caswells.com
i

Thanks.

I agree. Here's why:

In duress, we revert to our lowest level of training.

If we aren't trained, we revert to our lowest level of practice.

If we practiced nothing, that is what will happen

Fights are not won by the best, they are lost by the worst.


On LE accuracy...most play lip service to shot placement. (You can teach real center-mass shot placement by teaching to shoot at the back of the threat. It can be demonstrated by hanging two targets, one 6" in front of the other. Then engage the front target from realistic angles. Pull down the front target and reveal how this business of aiming center-front can totally miss center-mass. A non-center-mass hit may be as ineffective as a hit to an extremity. Just hitting the torso is not enough.)

Even those who try to address training effectively usually only shoot stationary targets. Then when a real threat is engaged there is this new factor called 'motion'. As we know it, if you only shoot stationary targets, when you are presented with a moving target you will be engrossed by the target and oblivious of the sights.

Recently, Simunitions have really began being accepted by LE for training. New doors are opening. I'm thinking first round hit ratios are going to rise along with overall accuracy.

Last on learning shot placement is it takes a lot of shooting to get it at combat speed. It is a conditioned ability and a perishable skill.


To add on your last paragraph: You are right.

This is not a technology problem or equipment problem. It is a problem of training fundamentals and applications. And in there rests all the answers.

How do I train Ricky Bobby to hit a book sized target at the worst angle in low light while he is in a position of disadvantage and maybe trying to back peddle for room to do it? First I drill the basics in him daily. Then I make him apply the basics under duress with variety until he has the basics. Then I challenge him to refine the basics in conditions worse than he will fight in. His best day of training should be worse than his worse day in a fight. I won't stray from the basics because there's no such thing as an advanced gunfight.


On your first point, avoid a fight. It can't be reminded enough that you can win a gunfight and still end up as dead as the losers.

[Maximilian II]

I'm listening to Delta and Fudd here, with ears wide open. I'm not as experienced in gun battles maybe but I'm still alive through some hairy non-firearm type fights. Knives and sticks can KILL YOU BADLY. Luckily my martial arts instructors have included the "crazy 'Nam Vet" type fellows who really knew what to prepare the advanced students for. Mental prep is the number one thing, and it's not JUST mental prep...
I won't claim to see any elephants though. Just maybe a hippo or three.