what each american should know or what they used to teach in school - The Firearms Forum

sewerman · 05-17-2009, 02:23 PM

12 May 2009

In light of the recent interest in secession, there are some fundamental points we need to understand in order to counter those who claim that this time-honoured remedy against tyranny is un-American and even treasonous.

The voluntary union (or confederacy) of States known as the United States was born of a secessionist movement against Great Britain, and our Declaration of Independence is, at base, a secessionist document. How, then, can secession legitimately be called un-American?

When our Founding Fathers broke the bonds of political association with the British Empire in 1776, the former colonies became free and independent States constituting thirteen separate communities, each asserting its sovereignty. This arrangement received confirmation in the Articles of Confederation (1778) and the Treaty of Paris (1783). Americans themselves, as well as their British foe, acknowledged that each State was a separate and sovereign entity.

The sovereignty of the separate States is an important issue in understanding how the United States was formed under its Constitution of 1787-88. When delegates met in Philadelphia in May 1787, they came as representatives selected by the people (i.e. citizens) of their respective States. The people of the States did not give their delegates any authority to make binding agreements; rather, they could only discuss proposed changes to the Articles of Confederation. Any changes to the Articles would become effective only if ratified in convention by the citizens of the separate States.

The result of the Philadelphia Convention of 1787 was, of course, the U.S. Constitution. However, the document was not binding until nine of the thirteen States ratified it for themselves. That happened in 1788, and those nine States entered into a compact (or contract) with each other and, by doing so, created the political union known as the United States (or, more accurately, the States United). Four States, for a time, remained outside of the union and thus were not bound by the compact. Eventually, though, all thirteen States ratified and united.

It is important to note that no State (or States) could answer for another State. Each State acceded to the compact by its own sovereign will. Moreover, all of them understood that they might secede from the compact by those same means-by a ratifying convention of their citizens or representatives.

Nowhere does the Constitution forbid a State from seceding from the union. In fact, the Tenth Amendment (contained in the Bill of Rights of 1791) expressly confirms that "the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the States are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The power to force a State against its will to remain in the union is absent among the powers delegated to the general (or federal) government; therefore, the right of secession is reserved to the States, or more precisely, to the people of the States.

Some of the New England States threatened to secede several times before 1860 (e.g. 1803, 1807, 1814, and 1844-45). At no time did the Southern States deny them this right. However, when a number of Southern States seceded in 1860-61, Lincoln and the Republican Party went to war to prevent them from exercising their Constitutional right. Simply put, Lincoln placed the forced "unity" of the States above the Constitution itself, and this action set him in opposition to the principles of the American Founders.

Northern victory in 1865 marked the end of true Constitutional government in America. In its place, the American Empire now defines the limits of its own power without serious regard to the Constitution. Formerly free and sovereign States have become little more than administrative provinces of an all-powerful central government in Washington, DC.

Without a serious challenge to its authority, which the acknowledged right of secession is, our government will not reform itself. We are not free people if we are not free to leave.

Our colonial ancestors acknowledged what our present government (and popular opinion) denies: that, at some time, dissolving our political bonds might be a necessary and proper course. That time came in 1860-61, and The League of the South believes it has come again.

Secession, as Thomas Jefferson acknowledged, is the assertion of the inalienable right of a people to change their form of government whenever it ceases to fulfill the purposes for which they created it. Under our Constitution this should be a peaceful remedy. The decision of a State or States to withdraw peacefully from a political association is not revolutionary or rebellious. On the contrary, the government that is no longer responsive to its people, a government that denies its people their inalienable rights, is revolutionary. The right of secession is never more necessary than when it is denied.

Some say that secession is impractical and/or unattainable. It certainly is both as long as the people of the States remain ignorant of it as a remedy to tyranny handed down to them by earlier generations.

We, the people of the States, still have the weapon and the legitimate power of reform (sovereignty). The only thing we lack is the collective will to wield it.

Dr. Michael Hill, President
The League of the South
(800) 888-3163 www.dixienet.org

here's another web site that discusses this issue:
http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/

sewerman

smokyhollowforge · 05-18-2009, 08:44 AM

If they taught our kids the facts of history and what our great Constitution means, they would have a educated public. If they have a educated public they can not control the or disarm them. So they have dumb down our kids, Taught them what they wanted them to know and are slowly disarming one step at a time. Once the public is disarmed they will have total control. It is sad to think that so many have died for our freedom, that a minority few think they can take our rights away. I think the time will come when the silent Majority will rise and stomp them were they stand. God help us if they don't! The worst thing is that my children will most likely have to live through those times.
Just my taxed 2 cents worth!

sewerman · 05-18-2009, 10:41 AM

10 -15 years ago the NRA was offering a text book which looked to be about the size of a college text book for say history.
the context of the book was the history & develpment of democracy starting with the ideas in the city states of greece, roman republic, to the norman law of england and finally to the establishment our democracy.
then the book was dedicated to the thorough step by step instruction on how our government works in language that the average working class person could identify with. a marvelous publication and one that was quickly deemed as a threat by the powers at hand. the book was swiftly removed from print almost over nite!!
i happened to visit an ol' timer who had a copy and he read it each nite along with the bible.
wish i could've gotten a copy of that book! i was young and raising my family and caught up in doing so was blinded by the stress and need of the moment. just the way big brother planned it!
people in stress and need will put the items causing such stress first on their priority list before worrying about much else.....damn big brother knows how to do it!

what this country needs is for that book to be printed again!!!

sewerman

Deathbunny · 05-21-2009, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokyhollowforge

If they taught our kids the facts of history and what our great Constitution means, they would have a educated public. If they have a educated public they can not control the or disarm them. So they have dumb down our kids, Taught them what they wanted them to know and are slowly disarming one step at a time. Once the public is disarmed they will have total control. It is sad to think that so many have died for our freedom, that a minority few think they can take our rights away. I think the time will come when the silent Majority will rise and stomp them were they stand. God help us if they don't! The worst thing is that my children will most likely have to live through those times.
Just my taxed 2 cents worth!

With all due respect, there is no "they."

"If they taught our kids"; "If they have a educated public"; "they have dumb down our kids"

There is no they. "They" are us. WE teach our children. WE are responsible for the results. Our government is elected by us. The people that educate our kids and the ones we elect to office are our fellow citizens. If you don't agree with something, argue about it, vote against it, or agitate for change. But don't waste your time trying to blame "them" for it.

fmacsin1 · 05-21-2009, 03:19 PM

Not all educators teach the "party line" in history or other classes that could deal with the Constitution. A lot of teachers teaching the Constitution DO, indeed, take it line by line and spend a lot of time making sure the kids know (and I mean know) what their Founding Fathers said. And I agree, Deathbunny, it takes a village to raise a young 'un, it always has and the parents are the most vital part of that village.

Airdale · 05-21-2009, 07:08 PM

I just started the "5000 Year Leap" (subtitled "Principles of Freedom 101") and I have already learned things I was never taught and I was a history major. It appears to be a very serious, but very readable, examination of the principles the Constitution was based on. Even though I've barely started I would recomend it.

4EvrLearning · 05-22-2009, 12:03 AM

There is a book available for 8th graders, on up, called "Our Living Constitution: Then and Now." It is designed to walk them through every section of the Constitution.

One of the best things about it is that the author has laid it out in two columns, right next to each other: The original text alongside modern English, so that you can instantly see a "translation," if you will, without totally losing the impact of the original document. It's a great reference or refresher for adults/parents, too!

smokyhollowforge · 05-26-2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathbunny

With all due respect, there is no "they."

"If they taught our kids"; "If they have a educated public"; "they have dumb down our kids"

There is no they. "They" are us. WE teach our children. WE are responsible for the results. Our government is elected by us. The people that educate our kids and the ones we elect to office are our fellow citizens. If you don't agree with something, argue about it, vote against it, or agitate for change. But don't waste your time trying to blame "them" for it.

With all due respect there is a they group.
They have taken over public education to teach what they want the child to know. They teach kids to pass test now and tote there belief line. The crap my kids have come to tell me about through the years is insane. I can not count how many times my kids got in trouble because they chose to disagree with there train of thought. Then my wife or I would have to go in and tell them how it is and get off my child's back. I am not sure where you are but where I am teachers are hired not elected. I have voted against them all my life. My wife and I spent most of the school years telling our daughters the facts and let them decide there own opinion about it. They are not me! They is a group with a liberal agenda!

Deathbunny · 05-26-2009, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokyhollowforge

With all due respect there is a they group.
They have taken over public education to teach what they want the child to know. They teach kids to pass test now and tote there belief line. The crap my kids have come to tell me about through the years is insane. I can not count how many times my kids got in trouble because they chose to disagree with there train of thought. Then my wife or I would have to go in and tell them how it is and get off my child's back. I am not sure where you are but where I am teachers are hired not elected. I have voted against them all my life. My wife and I spent most of the school years telling our daughters the facts and let them decide there own opinion about it. They are not me! They is a group with a liberal agenda!

Yes teachers are hired. In most places, the public school officials answer to a school board -- who are elected. Again, as a voter, you have the ability to take action. And, like 'em or hate 'em, teachers are FAR less important to a child's education than their parents.

If you classify everyone who disagrees with you as "they", okay. It's not real helpful, but okay. I'm sure to "them" you are "they".

carver · 06-28-2010, 07:55 AM

In may of 09 this string was started. I feel that this topic is very important to us today, even more so than it was then. A lot has happened in the last year. So, I bring this topic back to life, so that we all might understand that WE must be doing something right now, or WE are lost! Airdale mentions the book, "The 5000 Year Leap" in his post. If you have not read this book, then you are really missing out some important information. The book has a $20 price tag on it, and is worth every penny, but the book can be had through the Tea Party for $5. Let's rehash this one, and then get out there and do something about how WE believe. Let's be sure to make a difference in November!!!

hogger129 · 06-28-2010, 01:56 PM

If I ever have kids, I am going to teach them my view of history and my beliefs and let them decide for themselves.

Old Grump · 06-28-2010, 02:07 PM

Great post sewerman and like others already pointed out most of us didn't really learn history till after we got out of school. It is my personal belief that the Federalist and anti-Federalist papers should be taught right along side of learning early American history, warts and all. Then we wouldn't have congress critters and as of this last election a president who doesn't have a clue as to what is in the constitution or how serious their lack is.

topper · 06-29-2010, 07:29 AM

Any person with a fervent desire to learn can do so by going to the public library if the school does not or will not teach what any person wants to learn about. Nothing is stopping anyone from learning except that person themselves. Learning is a self given right and not guaranteed by any government. In this day and time it seems that computers games take precedence over learning so the problem lies for the most part with the person not having a desire to learn about their country and mostly wanting to fritter away their education on simulated games or other nonsense. Just look at the present curriculum in the public schools and it will tell the story of where america has gone.

05-17-2009, 02:23 PM	#1
sewerman V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: hurricane ally florida Posts: 231	what each american should know or what they used to teach in school 12 May 2009 In light of the recent interest in secession, there are some fundamental points we need to understand in order to counter those who claim that this time-honoured remedy against tyranny is un-American and even treasonous. The voluntary union (or confederacy) of States known as the United States was born of a secessionist movement against Great Britain, and our Declaration of Independence is, at base, a secessionist document. How, then, can secession legitimately be called un-American? When our Founding Fathers broke the bonds of political association with the British Empire in 1776, the former colonies became free and independent States constituting thirteen separate communities, each asserting its sovereignty. This arrangement received confirmation in the Articles of Confederation (1778) and the Treaty of Paris (1783). Americans themselves, as well as their British foe, acknowledged that each State was a separate and sovereign entity. The sovereignty of the separate States is an important issue in understanding how the United States was formed under its Constitution of 1787-88. When delegates met in Philadelphia in May 1787, they came as representatives selected by the people (i.e. citizens) of their respective States. The people of the States did not give their delegates any authority to make binding agreements; rather, they could only discuss proposed changes to the Articles of Confederation. Any changes to the Articles would become effective only if ratified in convention by the citizens of the separate States. The result of the Philadelphia Convention of 1787 was, of course, the U.S. Constitution. However, the document was not binding until nine of the thirteen States ratified it for themselves. That happened in 1788, and those nine States entered into a compact (or contract) with each other and, by doing so, created the political union known as the United States (or, more accurately, the States United). Four States, for a time, remained outside of the union and thus were not bound by the compact. Eventually, though, all thirteen States ratified and united. It is important to note that no State (or States) could answer for another State. Each State acceded to the compact by its own sovereign will. Moreover, all of them understood that they might secede from the compact by those same means-by a ratifying convention of their citizens or representatives. Nowhere does the Constitution forbid a State from seceding from the union. In fact, the Tenth Amendment (contained in the Bill of Rights of 1791) expressly confirms that "the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the States are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The power to force a State against its will to remain in the union is absent among the powers delegated to the general (or federal) government; therefore, the right of secession is reserved to the States, or more precisely, to the people of the States. Some of the New England States threatened to secede several times before 1860 (e.g. 1803, 1807, 1814, and 1844-45). At no time did the Southern States deny them this right. However, when a number of Southern States seceded in 1860-61, Lincoln and the Republican Party went to war to prevent them from exercising their Constitutional right. Simply put, Lincoln placed the forced "unity" of the States above the Constitution itself, and this action set him in opposition to the principles of the American Founders. Northern victory in 1865 marked the end of true Constitutional government in America. In its place, the American Empire now defines the limits of its own power without serious regard to the Constitution. Formerly free and sovereign States have become little more than administrative provinces of an all-powerful central government in Washington, DC. Without a serious challenge to its authority, which the acknowledged right of secession is, our government will not reform itself. We are not free people if we are not free to leave. Our colonial ancestors acknowledged what our present government (and popular opinion) denies: that, at some time, dissolving our political bonds might be a necessary and proper course. That time came in 1860-61, and The League of the South believes it has come again. Secession, as Thomas Jefferson acknowledged, is the assertion of the inalienable right of a people to change their form of government whenever it ceases to fulfill the purposes for which they created it. Under our Constitution this should be a peaceful remedy. The decision of a State or States to withdraw peacefully from a political association is not revolutionary or rebellious. On the contrary, the government that is no longer responsive to its people, a government that denies its people their inalienable rights, is revolutionary. The right of secession is never more necessary than when it is denied. Some say that secession is impractical and/or unattainable. It certainly is both as long as the people of the States remain ignorant of it as a remedy to tyranny handed down to them by earlier generations. We, the people of the States, still have the weapon and the legitimate power of reform (sovereignty). The only thing we lack is the collective will to wield it. Dr. Michael Hill, President The League of the South (800) 888-3163 www.dixienet.org here's another web site that discusses this issue: http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/ sewerman --> Last edited by sewerman; 05-18-2009 at 12:28 PM.. Reason: addendum

05-18-2009, 08:44 AM	#2
smokyhollowforge V.I.P. Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Maryland Posts: 73	Re: what each american should know or what they used to teach in school If they taught our kids the facts of history and what our great Constitution means, they would have a educated public. If they have a educated public they can not control the or disarm them. So they have dumb down our kids, Taught them what they wanted them to know and are slowly disarming one step at a time. Once the public is disarmed they will have total control. It is sad to think that so many have died for our freedom, that a minority few think they can take our rights away. I think the time will come when the silent Majority will rise and stomp them were they stand. God help us if they don't! The worst thing is that my children will most likely have to live through those times. Just my taxed 2 cents worth! __________________ "I'll give up my gun when they pry it from my cold,dead hands from around it" Charlton Heston, May 20th 2000, 129 NRA Convention

05-18-2009, 10:41 AM	#3
sewerman V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: hurricane ally florida Posts: 231	Re: what each american should know or what they used to teach in school 10 -15 years ago the NRA was offering a text book which looked to be about the size of a college text book for say history. the context of the book was the history & develpment of democracy starting with the ideas in the city states of greece, roman republic, to the norman law of england and finally to the establishment our democracy. then the book was dedicated to the thorough step by step instruction on how our government works in language that the average working class person could identify with. a marvelous publication and one that was quickly deemed as a threat by the powers at hand. the book was swiftly removed from print almost over nite!! i happened to visit an ol' timer who had a copy and he read it each nite along with the bible. wish i could've gotten a copy of that book! i was young and raising my family and caught up in doing so was blinded by the stress and need of the moment. just the way big brother planned it! people in stress and need will put the items causing such stress first on their priority list before worrying about much else.....damn big brother knows how to do it! what this country needs is for that book to be printed again!!! sewerman

05-21-2009, 03:19 PM	#5
fmacsin1 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Moosehead Lake, Maine Posts: 433	Re: what each american should know or what they used to teach in school Not all educators teach the "party line" in history or other classes that could deal with the Constitution. A lot of teachers teaching the Constitution DO, indeed, take it line by line and spend a lot of time making sure the kids know (and I mean know) what their Founding Fathers said. And I agree, Deathbunny, it takes a village to raise a young 'un, it always has and the parents are the most vital part of that village.

05-21-2009, 07:08 PM	#6
Airdale Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: N.W. Arkansas Contributor Posts: 761	Re: what each american should know or what they used to teach in school I just started the "5000 Year Leap" (subtitled "Principles of Freedom 101") and I have already learned things I was never taught and I was a history major. It appears to be a very serious, but very readable, examination of the principles the Constitution was based on. Even though I've barely started I would recomend it.

05-22-2009, 12:03 AM	#7
4EvrLearning Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Left Coast Posts: 1,449	Re: what each american should know or what they used to teach in school There is a book available for 8th graders, on up, called "Our Living Constitution: Then and Now." It is designed to walk them through every section of the Constitution. One of the best things about it is that the author has laid it out in two columns, right next to each other: The original text alongside modern English, so that you can instantly see a "translation," if you will, without totally losing the impact of the original document. It's a great reference or refresher for adults/parents, too! __________________ *"Until God is finished with me, I am immortal." Jonathan Edwards, American Theologian (1703-1758)*

06-28-2010, 07:55 AM	#10
carver TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of East Texas, just west of Shreveport, LA Contributor Posts: 11,527	Re: what each american should know or what they used to teach in school In may of 09 this string was started. I feel that this topic is very important to us today, even more so than it was then. A lot has happened in the last year. So, I bring this topic back to life, so that we all might understand that WE must be doing something right now, or WE are lost! Airdale mentions the book, "The 5000 Year Leap" in his post. If you have not read this book, then you are really missing out some important information. The book has a $20 price tag on it, and is worth every penny, but the book can be had through the Tea Party for $5. Let's rehash this one, and then get out there and do something about how WE believe. Let's be sure to make a difference in November!!! __________________ Y'all be safe now, ya hear! Lamentations Chapter 5: 1. Remember, O LORD, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. 2. Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens. 3. We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers [are] as widows. 5. Our necks [are] under persecution: we labour, [and] have no rest. 16. The crown is fallen [from] our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned! 21. Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

06-28-2010, 01:56 PM	#11
hogger129 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,078	Re: what each american should know or what they used to teach in school If I ever have kids, I am going to teach them my view of history and my beliefs and let them decide for themselves.

06-28-2010, 02:07 PM	#12
Old Grump Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Little hut in the woods near Blue River Wisconsin Posts: 2,320	Re: what each american should know or what they used to teach in school Great post sewerman and like others already pointed out most of us didn't really learn history till after we got out of school. It is my personal belief that the Federalist and anti-Federalist papers should be taught right along side of learning early American history, warts and all. Then we wouldn't have congress critters and as of this last election a president who doesn't have a clue as to what is in the constitution or how serious their lack is. __________________ "When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil."~~- Thomas Jefferson Roman Catholic, Life Member of American Legion, VFW, Wisconsin Libertarian party, Wi-FORCE, WGO, NRA, JPFO, GOA, SAFand CCRKBA

06-29-2010, 07:29 AM	#13
topper Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: deep in the woods Posts: 748	Re: what each american should know or what they used to teach in school Any person with a fervent desire to learn can do so by going to the public library if the school does not or will not teach what any person wants to learn about. Nothing is stopping anyone from learning except that person themselves. Learning is a self given right and not guaranteed by any government. In this day and time it seems that computers games take precedence over learning so the problem lies for the most part with the person not having a desire to learn about their country and mostly wanting to fritter away their education on simulated games or other nonsense. Just look at the present curriculum in the public schools and it will tell the story of where america has gone.