90% revisited

[armedandsafe]

Military style weapons. hmmmmm

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/world/6430292.html

Drug war guns came from Houston
Weapons at center of case cost $1,000 each on retail market
By DANE SCHILLER HOUSTON CHRONICLE
May 18, 2009, 10:13PM
10 Houston men, including three brothers, were charged Monday in a conspiracy to ship 151 military-style weapons south of the border. It’s the region’s biggest arms-trafficking case since the Obama administration vowed to do more to stem the flow of U.S. guns to Mexican drug cartel soldiers.

Many of the weapons, which court papers indicate were bought by deceiving Houston firearms dealers, were civilian variants of M-16 assault rifles, a weapon used by the U.S. military, and now favored by warring cartels.

The weapons, which go for up to $1,000 apiece on the retail market, were bought in cash, sometimes two or three in a day at the same gun store, court documents indicate.

Some of the weapons linked to the trafficking cell were traced from underworld kidnappings and murders committed by the Gulf Cartel trafficking syndicate to Houston stores.

In some instances, U.S. agents learned of the weapons after they were recovered at crime scenes in Mexico. In others, they were discovered by scouring records required to be kept by firearms dealers, but their whereabouts remain unknown.

A core of the charged men, aged 22-28, knew each other from their time at Klein Forest High School, according to authorities.

The charges, which cover actions from March 2006 to July 2007, speak to an ongoing problem in Houston, which the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives contends is the top spot in the U.S. for the sale of weapons later recovered in Mexico.

While Texas has a high concentration of gun stores, in Mexico it is illegal in almost every instance for civilians to have guns.

Mexico’s cartels are desperate for weaponry as they fight each other and the Mexican government.

Authorities contend cartels need U.S. citizens with clean records to buy the weapons as they pass background checks. They commit a crime by claiming the weapons are for their own use.

Tackling a backlog
According to an ATF affidavit, one of the men charged Monday bought 21 guns, worth nearly $28,000, over a two-month period.

President Barack Obama and Mexican President Felipe Caldron spoke extensively about arms trafficking during Obama’s recent trip to Mexico.

Calderon contends Mexico can do more to slow the northward flow of drugs if the U.S. does more to slow the southward flow of weapons.

The Obama administration has dispatched more federal agents to the U.S.-Mexico border to search for southbound weapons. Most recently, more than 100 ATF agents were deployed to the Houston region.

Their mission here is largely to tear through a backlog of cases in which authorities are trying to determine how guns made their way from Houston to cartel crime scenes.

In addition to the M-16 style weapons, other firearms frequently bought are guns that chamber a round of ammunition that is reputed to penetrate body armor under certain circumstances, and is known in Mexico as mata policias, or cop killers, federal prosecutors said.

Conspiracy charges
Those charged include: Jesus Saul Pineda, 26; Miguel Angel Pineda, 22; Juan Manuel Pineda, 24; Christian Joel Garza, 27; Emmanuel Contreras, 24; Hector Quintana, 25; Reginald Keith Menefee, 23; Jecorey Dwann McGrough, 28; Robert Allen Meachum, 27 and Rodrigo Garza II, 28.

All are charged with conspiracy to make a false statement to purchase a firearm, an offense that carries up to five years in prison.

Additionally, Garza is charged with eight counts of aiding and abetting various co-defendants in the purchase of the weapons, as well as dealing firearms without a license.

Monday’s indictment is linked to two other Houston men who have pleaded guilty in recent weeks.

John Hernandez, who also attended Klein Forest, was sentenced to eight years in prison. Among the weapons he supplied were firearms used in the “Acapulco Massacre” in which three Mexican police officers were killed.

dane.schiller@chron.com

Pops

[bcj1755]

I wonder how much time and effort it took the "fair and impartial" media to find a legitimate case of straw buyers purchasing US weapons to send to the cartels? If the Barry-Eric-Hillary Craptaular Axis of Crap and Stupidity is correct in their numbers, then EVERYONE in Texas should be buying guns for the Mexican dopers Anyone with more than two functioning synapses can tell that this incident is a case of a bunch of scumbags trying to make a quick buck in an illegal fashion. But of course you know that this case will be thrown down in front of the rest of us as "proof" that we "need" another "assault weapons" ban.

[ponycar17]

I sent an email... I'm bad!

You fail to cite even once the difference between semi-automatic AR15 variant weapons and their fully-automatic M16 'machine gun' counterparts in your article at http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/world/6430292.html

That's misleading journalism. Perhaps you don't understand the difference? Semi-automatic firearms fire once every time the trigger is pressed. That is the case with civillian AR15s. Fully-automatic M16s that the military uses fire continuously as long as the trigger is pressed, or 3 rounds for every trigger pull for some models. Your use the of the term 'assault rifle' and M16 leads the public to believe that anyone can purchase a fully-automatic M16 and thereby sways public opinion regarding the selling of AR15s. AR15s are only cosmetically different from many available semi-automatic hunting rifles. In fact, many AR15s are used for hunting today. Fully-automatic rifles have been strictly regulated by the 1934 National Firearms Act, and now can only be purchased with a $200 tax stamp to the ATF, local law enforcement permission and an intense background check. Since the fully-automatic weapons were banned to be sold if not registered with the BATFE before 1986, the average M16 now goes for $16,000 and you must still go through all of the federal paperwork to own one.

Fully-automatic versions of these rifles can be had from rogue nations at much less than $1000 a piece. Your story is deceiving and actually laughable to the firearms enthusiast in the know.

You are either being willfully ignorant in your portrayal of so-called 'assault weapons' or you simply do not know better.

I'm sorry. I couldn't make the point any nicer...

[bcj1755]

Originally Posted by ponycar17

I sent an email... I'm bad!

Yes, you're evil. Go sit in the corner! no more guns for you

[ponycar17]

Originally Posted by bcj1755

...no more guns for you

You sound like my wife...

I have her talked into a .17 HMR but I think that's definitely IT for me for the year. I tried to talk her into an AR15 but then she saw the price tag...

[bcj1755]

Originally Posted by ponycar17

You sound like my wife...

I have her talked into a .17 HMR but I think that's definitely IT for me for the year. I tried to talk her into an AR15 but then she saw the price tag...

Tell me about it. At one time, I was trying to talk myself into an AR-15, until I really started looking at the pricetags. But I did end up talking myself into a WASR-10/63, so I guess it worked out ok

[ineedsoap16]

Okay, the article...disturbing with so many inaccuracies. But I do have a question, the "cop killer" term is thrown around a lot and this article seems to make it seem if its one caliber. I have heard of a 9mm round something like this. Is there a real "cop killer" round or is any bullet that exhibits said destructive power? Don't get me wrong. I don't want one just am always wanting to learn.

[ponycar17]

Originally Posted by ineedsoap16

Okay, the article...disturbing with so many inaccuracies. But I do have a question, the "cop killer" term is thrown around a lot and this article seems to make it seem if its one caliber. I have heard of a 9mm round something like this. Is there a real "cop killer" round or is any bullet that exhibits said destructive power? Don't get me wrong. I don't want one just am always wanting to learn.

The simple answer is 'no'. In the 1990s, political airheads made a big stink because of the media calling 'teflon coated' bullets 'cop killer bullets'. These misguided non-technical journalistic idiots claimed that the bullets were coated to make it easier to pass through body armor. Because most Americans are not very literate with firearms (and understandably so), popular culture ran with the term. Nothing could be more inaccurate than the media claims about these bullets. The coatings put on some bullets, such as the now-defunct Winchester Black Talon was meant to decrease friction that heats the barrel and consequently affects accuracy and barrel life. The Black Talons were essentially identical to any other jacketed hollow point on the market but the name made 'media types' fear they could do impossible levels of destruction. Media accounts during the '90s called the Black Talon a 'buzz saw' that would spin and rip through your body. Some of those reporters either had a flair for the dramatic or were just horribly, horribly misinformed... or both....

There are indeed bullets that can pass through typical light-weight police body armor. Most modern rifle rounds have enough energy and the right shape to pierce a typical police protective vest, and especially if the rounds are full metal jacketed. If the anti-gunners figure this out they'll likely go after every modern hunting round made. I can't really imagine the how the gang bangers would shoot a Remington 700 sideways but I'm sure they'd try.

Here's some supporting information.

Armor Piercing Bullets

* Armor piercing bullets have been referred to in the media as "cop killers." (37)

* In October of 1996, Bill Clinton met with the widow of Police Officer Jerome Harrison Seaberry. Later that day at a political event, Clinton stated:

“I still think we ought to ban those bullets that are built only for one purpose, to pierce the bullet-proof vests that our police officers wear. I don't see why we need those things out there. Let me tell you, we just started this program two years ago, as I said, when I signed the Crime Bill in 1994. Today, I met with the first -- the family of the first one of the police officers hired under our Crime Bill, killed in the line of duty. I met here in Louisiana, in Lake Charles I met with that officer's widow and two beautiful, beautiful young sons. And I thought to myself, you know, if people like these folks here are going to put their lives on the line for us, the least we can do is tell them if they put on a bullet-proof vest, it will protect them from being killed. That's the least we can do for them.” (66) (67)

* Officer Seaberry was killed in a car crash. No guns or bullets were involved. (68)

* As of 1998, no law enforcement officer has ever been killed because an armor-piercing bullet defeated a bulletproof vest. (3)

From http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol....ERCING_BULLETS

Also, on harder KTW bullets...

Myth: “Cop Killer” bullets need to be banned
Fact: KTW rounds, wrongly labeled as “cop killer” bullets, were designed by police officers269, for use by police to penetrate hard targets like car windshields. KTWs have never been sold to the general public.270

Myth: Teflon bullets are designed to penetrate police bullet-proof vests
Fact: KTW rounds are Teflon coated to prevent heat build-up in a police officer’s gun barrel, not to pierce body armor.271

From http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-fa...5-0-screen.pdf Page 44

These terms are used by the media to incite fear because drama makes good news. 'Cop killer bullet' and 'assault weapon' are both media-derived terms. Adolf Hitler first coined the term 'Sturmgewehr' which translated loosely to 'storm rifle' to incite fear in his enemies, much like the term 'Blitzkrieg' for 'lightning war'. Modern media and politicians use the same tactic with 'assault weapon' and 'cop killer bullet'. Politicians feed off this false information as the basis to propose legislation on non-problems once the public is paying attention to the fear.

[bcj1755]

Originally Posted by ponycar17

There are indeed bullets that can pass through typical light-weight police body armor. Most modern rifle rounds have enough energy and the right shape to pierce a typical police protective vest, and especially if the rounds are full metal jacketed. If the anti-gunners figure this out they'll likely go after every modern hunting round made. I can't really imagine the how the gang bangers would shoot a Remington 700 sideways but I'm sure they'd try.

Don't forget that the old Tokarev round, the 7.62x25, will go through even a level 3 vest with the trauma plates in it. If someone wants to kill a cop badly enough, they will find a way to do so. Like any other criminal, they will find a way to commit their crimes, regardless of laws.

[GMFWoodchuck]

Originally Posted by bcj1755

Don't forget that the old Tokarev round, the 7.62x25, will go through even a level 3 vest with the trauma plates in it. If someone wants to kill a cop badly enough, they will find a way to do so. Like any other criminal, they will find a way to commit their crimes, regardless of laws.

85 grains at 1200 fps. Woopee!! This cartridge was designed in the 30's. Almost everything else in the self-defense market is better than this round. Maybe that's why the Russians don't use it anymore. This is merely fodder for the anti-gunners to use against us. Please stop posting obviously false info.

[bcj1755]

Originally Posted by GMFWoodchuck

85 grains at 1200 fps. Woopee!! This cartridge was designed in the 30's. Almost everything else in the self-defense market is better than this round. Maybe that's why the Russians don't use it anymore. This is merely fodder for the anti-gunners to use against us. Please stop posting obviously false info.

I've seen a test myself. A 7.62x25 vs. a 9x19 both FMJ and both fired at a steel helmet of Polish manufacture. The 9mm bounced off leaving a small dent, the 7.62 went through both sides. The 7.62x25 FMJ round can run from bewteen 1650 to 1720 fps with an 85 gr bullet. A 90 gr FMJ can run 1340 fps. As far as when it was desinged, the 9mm was desined in 1902. The .45ACP was designed in 1904. the 7.62x54R was designed in the 1880s. All of those rounds are still in service. And as for it being "obviously false info," don't try to tell me that something I've seen with my own eyes never happened.

[armedandsafe]

I shot my first moose with a 32-20. 90 grain solid at 1400 fps. Did reasonably well. Good eating.

Pops