Indian wars

[kutaho]

Not meaning to drop back a bit, but I would like to set the stage for this three hundred year long struggle with that of columbus, 1492.
In the south east alone, there was a population of about two million native Americans. By 1700 there was 130,000.
Columbus took a gentle people and enslaved them, infecting them with diseases that they had no immunity to.
1539, Hernando de Soto's little trek around the southeast pillaging and enslaving.
1565, Pedro Menendez de Aviles subjugates the Seloy tribe after they extend a friendly welcome. This in turn is followed by the disappearance of the Roanoke island colony.

[kutaho]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

It has also been said that the plains Indians were among the best light cavalry ever to exist.

I've always wondered how they would compare on the field with Temujin's
light horse?
wrestle with that one later

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by kutaho

This in turn is followed by the disappearance of the Roanoke island colony.

To this day, no one knows what happened to the Roanoke settlers. When Gilbert returned there in 1588, after the Spanish Armada was defeated, he found only an abandoned fort, but no evidence of attack. Nor did he find any human remains other than the normal burials one would expect. The only clue was the word "Croatoan" carved into the fort wall and a nearby tree. Since Croatoan could refer to either a nearby tribe, or to the island in the Outer Banks on which they lived, the clue was not much help. Some historians think the settlers, faced with starvation, attempted to reach another island by raft and were perhaps lost at sea. Another possible explanation is that they blended with Native American tribes in the vicinity, or were perhaps simply killed when they approached one of the tribes for assistance. There are stories in the region, however, of the birth of an occasional blond, blue-eyed child among the tribes, which may mean they did indeed blend into the local population. Repeated and careful examination of the Roanoke Island settlement site has never yielded any further clues to their whereabouts, and Gilbert records that he thoroughly checked all of the islands in the vicinity of Roanoke without finding any trace of the settlers.

[kutaho]

Didn't they find a chest of books or something hidden away from the fort?
Theirs also rumors of red headed blue eyed children occasionally in the high north. Believed to be remnants of the viking colony that disappeared.

[TranterUK]

Originally Posted by kutaho

I've always wondered how they would compare on the field with Temujin's
light horse?
wrestle with that one later

I rather liked the idea. I would think had the two groups met in battle, neither would have come out well. Very evenly matched I would have thought.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by TranterUK

I rather liked the idea. I would think had the two groups met in battle, neither would have come out well. Very evenly matched I would have thought.

Perhaps, but I would suggest the Mongols had a more advanced weapons technology. The Native Americans never developed use of the sword or effective armor.

[TranterUK]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Perhaps, but I would suggest the Mongols had a more advanced weapons technology. The Native Americans never developed use of the sword or effective armor.

Perhaps Pistol, but then the Indian had spears as well as bows. It depends what period were talking about, the height of the Mongol empire would be I think at the first half of the 13 century. I may be wrong, but the native Americans didn't even have the horse at that time? Was the horse not introduced to North America some two hundred years later by the Europeans?

I admit this is not my area, so I stand to be corrected?

[USMC-03]

Originally Posted by TranterUK

I may be wrong, but the native Americans didn't even have the horse at that time? Was the horse not introduced to North America some two hundred years later by the Europeans?

I admit this is not my area, so I stand to be corrected?

You are correct, Tranter. The first horses were brought to the Americas by the Spaniards in the early 16th century.

[kutaho]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Perhaps, but I would suggest the Mongols had a more advanced weapons technology. The Native Americans never developed use of the sword or effective armor.

I concede that point pistoel, but only in regards to the mongol recurve bow.
I'm talking an even field of play, and a game of coup

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by TranterUK

Perhaps Pistol, but then the Indian had spears as well as bows. It depends what period were talking about, the height of the Mongol empire would be I think at the first half of the 13 century. I may be wrong, but the native Americans didn't even have the horse at that time? Was the horse not introduced to North America some two hundred years later by the Europeans?

I admit this is not my area, so I stand to be corrected?

Correct on both counts, Tranter. The Mongol Empire was at its height in the mid-13th century. Horses are not indigenous to North America and thus the great Native American horse culture of the Plains did not even begin developing until the 16th century, and indeed did not reach its height until the 18th and 19th centuries.

Yes, the Native Americans (some of them anyway) did use the lance, and they possessed reasonably good bows, though the composite bows the Mongols used were far, far more efficient and effective. Frankly, in a theoretical military contest, I would bet heavily on the Mongols to come out on top.

[45nut]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

Frankly, in a theoretical military contest, I would bet heavily on the Mongols to come out on top.

I would too based on the idea that the Mongols understood the concept of a military campaign while the Indians thought more along the lines of the individual battle, then go home and eat some buffalo and count your ponies and dance around the council fire singing songs about the coup you counted that day.

[jacksonco]

Should the Aztec be counted out in a Mongul conflict? They were a lot more organized and structured than the Plains Indians. But then any primative force facing a mounted foe is held at a huge disadvantage.

The Plains Indian would match up better against early Judean armies. But the bronze weaponery still puts them at a disadvantage.

[Charlie the sniper]

Pistolenschutze/Tranter and anyone else really. Do you think that the Bengal Lancers would make worthwhile opponents to the Native American ?? That would really make it a "Indian war"....."sorry about that"
Both being Light/lite Cavalry, and fine horsemen/soldiers. Just an idea

[Pistolenschutze]

I wonder how Gandhi would have fared against, say, the Apache or the Cheyenne? I suspect he would have found himself staked out over an anthill.

[Charlie the sniper]

Not much meat on him

[45nut]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

I wonder how Gandhi would have fared against, say, the Apache or the Cheyenne? I suspect he would have found himself staked out over an anthill.

Pistol,

Personally, I think the Commanche were the most fierce of the plains tribes. That wheel formation they used to attack must have been something to behold. It was said they would ride in a circle firing from under the neck of their horse; each time around getting closer to their enemy, finally overtaking them.

They might have given the Mongols a run for their money.

[kutaho]

These guys had a bit of a reputation also,
They called them dog soldiers

[millwright]

Interesting posts !! Learning a lot !!

I've always felt it was fortunate/unfortunate the settlement and westward expansion of America occurred in about the same time frame as many Indian cultures were undergoing massive restructuring due to the introduction of European technology into their culture.

Iron needles, pots, knives, and yes, the horse, had major impacts on varous tribes as well as the ecosystem. The horse meant larger and more extended families that could pursue game, rather than trail along behind it. The Indian suddenly became far more mobile, not to mention better nourished, with all that implies. >MW

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by 45nut

Pistol,

Personally, I think the Commanche were the most fierce of the plains tribes. That wheel formation they used to attack must have been something to behold. It was said they would ride in a circle firing from under the neck of their horse; each time around getting closer to their enemy, finally overtaking them.

They might have given the Mongols a run for their money.

There are many historians who would agree with you 45. The Comanche were actually an offshoot of the Shoshone, in case you're interested. They were perhaps the most warlike of the Native American plains tribes, and in fact were at war with virtually every other tribe on the Great Plains at one time or another.

[USMC-03]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

There are many historians who would agree with you 45. The Comanche were actually an offshoot of the Shoshone, in case you're interested. They were perhaps the most warlike of the Native American plains tribes, and in fact were at war with virtually every other tribe on the Great Plains at one time or another.

I highly recommend the 5 volume series Thunder Over the Ochoco by Gale Ontko. He is a local Central Oregon historian and author who has done an exceptional job of researching the Shoshone, general history of the western tribes and Eastern Oregon in particular.

[islenos]

One of my ancestors fought along the side of General Stand Waite in the 2nd Cherokee Mounted Rifles during the War of Northern Aggression. This afforded a great deal of insight for the Native American in how the US wages war. The knowledge gained was very useful a decade later.

Side Note. Gen Waite was the last Confederate General to surrender his command.

[45nut]

Originally Posted by kutaho

These guys had a bit of a reputation also,
They called them dog soldiers

You are correct Sir. The Cheyenne once raided down into Comanche territory mid century and you could tell their line of travel by the burial of the dog soldiers.

[fmacsin1]

I get the feeling up here on the right coast that the Native Tribes established here long before the white man came feel that they are second-class citizens. As has been said about other natives, Maine's Native Americans have been treated no better than a lot of Indian tribes across this nation, sadly. They have a healthy "aloofness" here still. I have taught many Native Americans in class and I, too, have found them engaging, fiercely proud of their heritage and, once you get a rapport with them, very open and giving. It's too bad that stereotypes still exist for them!

[kutaho]

From my observation, that last great battles of the Indian wars were won not by force of arms, but by the choice of extinction via starvation, or just being tired of fighting with the realization that they couldn't possible win.
1886 i believe was the last, Geronimo in the Chiricahua's. I've been to that place in organ pipe country, i can understand how he could hold off the cavalry. But not much to eat.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by kutaho

From my observation, that last great battles of the Indian wars were won not by force of arms, but by the choice of extinction via starvation, or just being tired of fighting with the realization that they couldn't possible win.

True, kutaho, and those conditions go a long ways toward explaining the Ghost Dance phenomenon that began about 1889. It was originally spread among the Nevada Paiute by Jack Wilson, but then among many Native American tribes for a time. Sadly, it also played a role in the killing of about 150 Lakota Sioux at Wounded Knee in 1890.