Indian wars

[kutaho]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

True, kutaho, and those conditions go a long ways toward explaining the Ghost Dance phenomenon that began about 1889. It was originally spread among the Nevada Paiute by Jack Wilson, but then among many Native American tribes for a time. Sadly, it also played a role in the killing of about 150 Lakota Sioux at Wounded Knee in 1890.

and that in itself was another misconception, they mistook the ghost dance ceremony for the white shirt ceremony.
the men-con-jue were farmers, the name means 'those who plant by the waters' not a very confrontational name. Yet there were fifty survivors out of 500.

[doug66]

I read 'bury my heart at wounded knee' made me realize the guys wearing the white hats weren't always good. We tried to exterminate a race because they were seen as sub-human and we had the technology to do so.

Today we call it genocide when some other country does such things.

[TranterUK]

Originally Posted by doug66

We tried to exterminate a race because they were seen as sub-human

We touch upon oh so heavy things.

It makes it easier to regard another group as 'sub human' when you are to do them harm. To see them as in some way inferior. I know this to be true. As do others here. I used it. It's so wrong, but it helps, which I guess makes it worse.

[kutaho]

It's easier to do the deed when you dehumanize you're opponent.
It seems to be the rule and not the exception.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by kutaho

It's easier to do the deed when you dehumanize you're opponent.
It seems to be the rule and not the exception.

Very true, kutaho, and it is a device that has been used over and over again by politicians and military commanders for centuries. Another good example is the anti-German campaign carried on in the United States during World War I. Perhaps and even better one is the propaganda campaign used against the Japanese during World War II.

[Pistolenschutze]

In light of this discussion, it is perhaps worthy to note that exactly 133 years ago today--on 25 June 1876--Col. George Armstrong Custer and 203 men of the 7th Cavalry were slaughtered to the last man on a lonely hillside near the Little Bighorn River in Montana.

[kutaho]

The beginning of the end.
In memory of Chef Big Foot

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by kutaho

The beginning of the end.
In memory of Chef Big Foot

Yes, it was indeed the beginning of the end for the great horse culture of the Plains, kutaho. Less than a year later, Crazy Horse was killed resisting the efforts of Sheridan's cavalry to force all of the Plains tribes into small reservations.

[bcj1755]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

In light of this discussion, it is perhaps worthy to note that exactly 133 years ago today--on 25 June 1876--Col. George Armstrong Custer and 203 men of the 7th Cavalry were slaughtered to the last man on a lonely hillside near the Little Bighorn River in Montana.

How many men did Crazy Horse have at the battle? I've heard widely varying numbers.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by bcj1755

How many men did Crazy Horse have at the battle? I've heard widely varying numbers.

No one really knows for sure, bcj. In fact, the total number of Indians--Lakota and Northern Cheyenne--involved in the battle is somewhat uncertain. Historians estimate that in the battle as a whole, the warriors outnumbered the 7th Cavalry by about three to one, or roughly 1800 against 600. In the final Custer fight on what today is known as Last Stand Hill, the numbers were probably more like nine to one, i.e., 1800 to 200, though that is still controversial. The evidence analyzed later seems to indicate that those involved in that last fight knew their chances of survival were virtually nonexistent on the top of that hill, and they fought accordingly. Some, it seems, quite possibly committed suicide before they could be captured.

[olmossbak]

Originally Posted by Snakedriver

The only ones of the “civilized tribes” that ever fought the U.S. was a small band if 500-900 Seminoles in Florida led by war Chief Oscela that succeeded in killing approx. 1,500 U.S. soldiers in their various battles. They never surrendered to the U.S. and their descendants in Florida still call themselves “The Unconquered People”. Their biggest victories over the white man were when oil was discovered in Oklahoma on Reservation land and then later when gambling casinos were allowed on the Reservations. The Seminoles of Florida now own the entire Hard Rock Hotel and Casinos chain. Tribe members share in the profits.

Snakedriver,

I think that you may find that the Cherokee sided with the British during the American Revolution and then with the Americans during the War of 1812. Andy Jackson had Cherokee with him during the battle of Horseshoe Bend. This battle was against the Muskogee who were called Creeks or Red Sticks by the whites. The Choctaws and the Chickasaws were notable fierce to those whites who were trying to settle the lower Mississippi. The Seminoles eventually included members of all the above as well as many escaped slaves. Most of the folk in Oklahoma that were relocated natives sided with the CSA.

I think that all of these nations are now profiting from casino and other investments. More power to them.

Has anyone done any reading on the Puebloan revolts against the Spanish in the 1600s. They literally ran the Spanish out of the southwest US for over half a century but couldn't stay united and keep them out. The Acoma people from near Grants, NM make this story part of their tours.

[Teejay9]

I believe 19th Century Americans were responsible for one of the saddest, most brutal episodes in our collective history. The whites dealings with Native Americans was shameful. All they did was break one treaty after another. No sooner did they move the indigenous population to some God forsaken piece of ground, they would find it was worth something and force the Indians off the land again. Their slaughter of non-combatants was as bad as anything we've seen in "ethnic cleansing." The US government of the time was deceitful, arrogant, and murderous. We did the Native Peoples a grave injustice. We nearly wiped out an entire species of animal, just to cut off the food supply and starve them into submission. When I first read Dee Brown's "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee," I was shocked into the realization of just "how the West was won." A disgraceful chapter in US history. TJ

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by Teejay9

I believe 19th Century Americans were responsible for one of the saddest, most brutal episodes in our collective history. The whites dealings with Native Americans was shameful. All they did was break one treaty after another. No sooner did they move the indigenous population to some God forsaken piece of ground, they would find it was worth something and force the Indians off the land again. Their slaughter of non-combatants was as bad as anything we've seen in "ethnic cleansing." The US government of the time was deceitful, arrogant, and murderous. We did the Native Peoples a grave injustice. We nearly wiped out an entire species of animal, just to cut off the food supply and starve them into submission. When I first read Dee Brown's "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee," I was shocked into the realization of just "how the West was won." A disgraceful chapter in US history. TJ

Ja doch, das ist wahr Herr TJ. What you say is certainly true enough, TJ, but as my students and I have discussed in my US History courses, the other side of that coin is the unquestionable historical and demographic dynamic that was in inexorable play in the 19th century US. Please don't get me wrong, I don't mean to sound as an apologist for the many, many wrongs that were done to the Native American peoples during the westward expansion, the broken treaties and all the rest. There can be no morally sound excuse for that. What I am saying, however, is that once Americans began the march westward, the ultimate demise, or at least reordering, of the native cultures was inevitable, virtually irresistible. Greater population, technology, and especially organization, would have seen to that with or without the atrocities committed by both sides.

[Teejay9]

I don't know if "Manifest Destiny" is a viable excuse. That it was the dynamic that spurred the Americans on, there can be no doubt. Scratch any conqueror, and I 'll bet you get their own version of "destiny." The survival of the fittest would seem to be predominate here. No, I realize you are not an apologist (who could be?) for the sanguine nature of 19th Century Americans. It's just a very big chapter that's usually swept under the rug. It really doesn't fit in with our "Old West" fantasies, cutting off pieces of human beings and stretching them over your saddle horn. TJ

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by Teejay9

I don't know if "Manifest Destiny" is a viable excuse.

No, most certainly not an excuse for the immorality of such actions by any means, TJ, but certainly what did occur was an abject reality, arguably even an inevitable outcome of a confrontation between two diametrically opposed cultures and value systems. Without wishing to sound like a refrain from one of Friedrich Nietzsche's tirades, I think it is reasonable to argue that, right or wrong, the paradigm of population demography was inevitably going to play itself out to the detriment of the Native American peoples given the relative strength of the two sides. It is indeed tragic, for both sides, that it did so in such a horrific manner, but the dynamics of history are seldom kind.

[kutaho]

Originally Posted by Pistolenschutze

No, most certainly not an excuse for the immorality of such actions by any means, TJ, but certainly what did occur was an abject reality, arguably even an inevitable outcome of a confrontation between two diametrically opposed cultures and value systems. Without wishing to sound like a refrain from one of Friedrich Nietzsche's tirades, I think it is reasonable to argue that, right or wrong, the paradigm of population demography was inevitably going to play itself out to the detriment of the Native American peoples given the relative strength of the two sides. It is indeed tragic, for both sides, that it did so in such a horrific manner, but the dynamics of history are seldom kind.

Something that has occurred thru out man's history, Just about every people at one time or another has suffered such indignities.

[Pistolenschutze]

Originally Posted by kutaho

Something that has occurred thru out man's history, Just about every people at one time or another has suffered such indignities.

Indeed true, kutaho. Ironically, it was just such persecution that in part prompted the establishment of some of the original 13 English colonies in North America.

[kutaho]

Yep, one thing leads to another. You'd think after all this time mankind would learn. I guess its just part of the human condition.

[rundownfid]

Before we wail at the fate of the unfortunate Indians we ought to note that their fate is the fate of all weak people. The fertile lands of England were conquered by the Celts, Angels, Saxons, Romans, Vikings, & Norman French. That is the way of the world, perhaps it is sad, perhaps not, I can't say anymore than I can say it is sad that gravity ties us to the earth or that the day ends and night comes.

The European conquest of the Americas was inevitable, and could only have been postponed by the non arrival of the Renaissance and Enlightenment. Once the European powers knew of the Americas it was inevitable that they would explore, and exploit the resources available. To do otherwise would be inhuman, and would only postpone the settlement of the area until Asians or other "advanced" people had the knowledge and opportunity to do it.

When the Europeans started to come to the Americas they first, quite by accident, brought disease; which is the real little told story of what happened to the Indian cultures. While exact numbers are unknown and probably unknowable, the devastation was massive, let us say 25 to 50% killed, within a generation. It was an epidemic that rolled west with contact, weakening the Indians physically, and also psychologically.

Beyond the sickness the Europeans also brought a material wealth that the Indians could, and would, not ignore. Iron pots to cook in, steal axes to fell trees, steal traps, rope, cloth, the list is endless and once known the items became essential. As much as the Indians wished to stay separate they were inevitably pulled into a trading relationship with the Europeans, one that benefited both in the short run, but ensured the destruction of the "Indian way of life".

A great deal is made of the disagreements between the Europeans and their wars are studied extensively. One is less likely to hear of the disputes between the Indians themselves. However, it is hard to ignore the fact that Indians fought Indians in most of the 18th and early 19th century conflicts on this continent. While the French were a power there was some hope that the European powers would offset each other and leave a place for a continuing aboriginal presence. However, with the end of the French Empire in North America there was little other than the British Kings' ill advised desire to limit the growth of his colonies to the Eastern side of the Appalachians. With American independence that slim hope evaporated and the Eastern half of the continent lay open for the advance of a land hungry populace of native born Americans and unimaginable numbers of new immigrants.

When the Haitians and diseases defeated the French and Napoleon wanted to sell "his N. American possessions" most of the rest of the lower 48 fell into play. Add the weakness of the corrupt Mexican Gov't and the rest fell in place.

I would ask you where should the expansion have ended? When should people of good will have said enough is enough we will not settle further? Would the Indians in the South West be better off under the Mexicans? Would the Indians of the North West be better served if the British and Canadians had made a fight to stop 44'40"? Are the Americans to be expected to leave a vast portion of the land mass nearly empty so that a tiny fraction of the population can live by hunting and gathering, (oh yes and gambling, and oil rights)?

The American Indians were a noble race and those of us who have some Indian blood can be proud of it. However, we are all Americans now and need to give up pining for the past. It was never going to last once the Europeans arrived with the future; all that the stone age aboriginals had was a past and now a new future, if we will accept it.