"May We See Your Guns?"

[SaddleSarge]

In Border States, BATFE Asks: "May We See Your Guns?"

Friday, June 19, 2009

NRA-ILA has recently received several calls from NRA members in border states who have been visited or called by agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. In some cases, agents have asked to enter these people's homes, and requested serial numbers of all firearms the members possess.

In each case, the agents were making inquiries based on the number of firearms these NRA members had recently bought, and in some cases the agents said they were asking because the members had bought types of guns that are frequently recovered in Mexico.

This kind of questioning may or may not be part of a legitimate criminal investigation. For example, when BATFE traces a gun seized after use in a crime, manufacturers' and dealers' records will normally lead to the first retail buyer of that gun, and investigators will have to interview the buyer to find out how the gun ended up in criminal hands. But in other cases, the questioning may simply be based on information in dealers' records, with agents trying to "profile" potentially suspicious purchases.

On the other hand, some of the agents have used heavy-handed tactics. One reportedly demanded that a gun owner return home early from a business trip, while another threatened to "report" an NRA member as "refusing to cooperate." That kind of behavior is outrageous and unprofessional.

Whether agents act appropriately or not, concerned gun owners should remember that all constitutional protections apply. Answering questions in this type of investigation is generally an individual choice. Most importantly, there are only a few relatively rare exceptions to the general Fourth Amendment requirement that law enforcement officials need a warrant to enter a home without the residents' consent. There is nothing wrong with politely, but firmly, asserting your rights.

If BATFE contacts you and you have any question about how to respond, you may want to consult a local attorney. NRA members may also call NRA-ILA's Office of Legislative Counsel at (703) 267-1161 for further information. Whether contacting a local attorney or NRA, be sure to provide as many details as possible, including the date, time, and location, agent's name, and specific questions asked.





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[bcj1755]

And so it begins. You KNOW that the serial numbers the BATFE agents take down are going into some fed database

I've said it before and I'll say it again, BATFE is nothing but an overgrown tax collection agency with overblown delusions of grandeur and hugely bloated bureacracy with an vastly overestimated sence of its own importance and usefulness.

[ponycar17]

I'd like to hear some 'ol rancher say, "well, you ain't got eyes wide enough ta' see all of 'em at once, and I ain't got time for tha grand tour..."

[SaddleSarge]

Well, you ain't got eyes wide enough ta' see all of 'em at once, and I ain't got time for tha grand tour.

[ponycar17]

Sarge, that's great! I've been watching the Beverley Hillbilly's lately, even though my wife tells me to turn it... She changed her tune when she figured out that our 2 year old watches it like it's some magical cartoon. I think that some of the stuff they say is hilarious. It's got me thinking in that mindset for a while. There was a lot of wisdom shared in that show.

[bcj1755]

You sure can, when I see a warrant.

[cycloneman]

"In each case, the agents were making inquiries based on the number of firearms these NRA members had recently bought, and in some cases the agents said they were asking because the members had bought types of guns that are frequently recovered in Mexico. "

Read the wording. If they know you recently bought it then they know you bought it. Why go and ask if you bought it? Ahhhh maybe to see if the person who bought it actually ownes it. Maybe they are trying to find straw sales.

[ponycar17]

Originally Posted by cycloneman

Read the wording. If they know you recently bought it then they know you bought it. Why go and ask if you bought it? Ahhhh maybe to see if the person who bought it actually owns it. Maybe they are trying to find straw sales.

I'd tell them the same thing regardless... THEM!!!!

[cycloneman]

"But in other cases, the questioning may simply be based on information in dealers' records, with agents trying to "profile" potentially suspicious purchases."

This is what i believe exactly happened here. Agents are skimming through 4473's and probably noticing multipal purchases of a type of weapon. This is profiling and we all know that's wrong. I see what they are probably trying to do but if they are so concerned then just sit in the dealers shop. I have no problem with them trying to stop straw sales. I dont believe that is the real issue or what there after. This has probably been intimidating to those who have been visited. that may be the effect their after. You buy guns were gona come see you.

You dont want to go to citizens homes. if they show up at your house that means they suspect you of something. I guess the real question is why do they give a hoot about Mexico? Last time i checked that is a country outside of the US.

I was merly trying to get an insite at what they might be after. Now after much thought, i must say i am not so sure.

As far as a data bank goes I am absolutly sure that everytime a 4473 is filled out data is taken. You would be a fool to think otherwise.

[bcj1755]

Originally Posted by cycloneman

"But in other cases, the questioning may simply be based on information in dealers' records, with agents trying to "profile" potentially suspicious purchases."

This is what i believe exactly happened here. Agents are skimming through 4473's and probably noticing multipal purchases of a type of weapon. This is profiling and we all know that's wrong. I see what they are probably trying to do but if they are so concerned then just sit in the dealers shop. I have no problem with them trying to stop straw sales. I dont believe that is the real issue or what there after. This has probably been intimidating to those who have been visited. that may be the effect their after. You buy guns were gona come see you.

You dont want to go to citizens homes. if they show up at your house that means they suspect you of something. I guess the real question is why do they give a hoot about Mexico? Last time i checked that is a country outside of the US.

I was merly trying to get an insite at what they might be after. Now after much thought, i must say i am not so sure.

As far as a data bank goes I am absolutly sure that everytime a 4473 is filled out data is taken. You would be a fool to think otherwise.

I've always said that the 4473 is nothing but a thinly veiled form of backdoor registration.

If they go to someone's house because they suspect them of wrongdoing, then they would have a signed warrant. If they're just knocking on doors without warrants, then that means they are trying to intimidate and scare honest citizens out of buying guns. They want to knock on my door to see if I'm making straw purchases, let them come with a warrant. Otherwise that can sit on it and rotate, when they get ot the elbow the ride is over.

[45nut]

Originally Posted by bcj1755

And so it begins. You KNOW that the serial numbers the BATFE agents take down are going into some fed database

I've said it before and I'll say it again, BATFE is nothing but an overgrown tax collection agency with overblown delusions of grandeur and hugely bloated bureacracy with an vastly overestimated sence of its own importance and usefulness.

Come on bcj,

Tell us how you really feel.......get it off of your chest.

Does the phrase "Goose Stepping Morons" or "Jack Booted Thugs" or "Brown Shirts" spring to anyone's mind????

[Southern Boy]

Seems to me they got it backwards, should'nt they get the guns from Mehico, trace them back to purchasers through dealer records? At least that way they know for sure the gun ended up down there, they can check 1000's of purchasers and never come across a crime. More government waste, or another hidden agenda? you decide, I already have.