SBR definition question

MikeWilliamson · 06-26-2009, 11:33 AM

I've asked this in other fora and not gotten anything concrete beyond, "everyone does it." Obviously, I'm not using that as legal advice.

I'm building an AK underfolder on my own receiver. OAL with stock folded without muzzle brake is going to be right at 25.5"

Does the 26" minimum OAL for rifles apply with the stock folded or extended? I need an actual cite from somewhere, not an opinion. I know several mfrs have made ones exactly to this spec, but that doesn't mean of itself that it's legit.

Also, I presume but want to confirm that a forward pistol grip is legal for use with stock folded.

If lengthening, would welding the brake to the detent be sufficient? It could be cut off with a hacksaw in a few seconds, but would not be removable otherwise.

Alpo · 06-26-2009, 04:24 PM

My understanding is the OAL is measured with the stock extended.

You are aware that, even if the gun is over the 26 inch mark, you still have to have a barrel at least 16 inches long, right?

Forward pistol grips are legal on rifles, whether the stock is folded/collapsed or not.

And, yes, if you wanted to make it longer, welding an extension on (welding, not soldering or brazing) is sufficient. It is true you could cut the extension off with a hacksaw, but you could cut a 24" barrel down with a hacksaw also. No hoo-hoo.

MikeWilliamson · 06-26-2009, 04:34 PM

Yup, standard AK barrel is slightly over 16". No problem there.

I know that "extended measure" is the commonly accepted, but paranoid that I am, I'd like to see Title 18, USC or a letter from the ATF to that effect and not assume.

Or I could weld on a rear single point mount to the trunnion.

TOOHSOTKIL · 06-26-2009, 05:41 PM

Any weapon on the unpapered trail is measured the same way, with the stock folded. As it would appear if no stock were attached. (The longest of each end---pistol grip aft, muzzle nut/flashider front)

You are at the minimum and with a flash-hider attached it will meet the 26" requirement.......it is part of the length (flash-hider) you will also find that a muzzle nut (in place of the FH) will add the correct length too. If not threaded at the end, the barrel should be 17".

SBR is a "short barreled weapon" OAL has nothing to do with that definition.

Bill DeShivs · 06-27-2009, 01:07 PM

It is my understanding that OAL is measured with the stock open, and that it does not have to be 26" when folded. Write a letter to ATF about this and get official documentation.
Brazing or high temperature silver soldering a brake on is acceptable. Soft (lead or low-temp. "silver solder") is not acceptable.

MikeWilliamson · 06-27-2009, 04:42 PM

Thanks. I better drop them an inquiry just to make sure.

TOOHSOTKIL · 06-28-2009, 11:30 AM

$1,000.00 says the stock is closed for this question.
Why place a permanent pin in a folding stock to skirt that very issue.
Pistol grip only shotguns.....ever seen one??
BET????

Alpo · 06-28-2009, 05:02 PM

I believe the "permanent pin in a folding stock" has to do with California and New York's assault weapon laws.

TOOHSOTKIL · 06-28-2009, 07:32 PM

$1,000.00 ??

MikeWilliamson · 06-28-2009, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TOOHSOTKIL

Pistol grip only shotguns.....ever seen one??

Er, yes...

http://www.mossberg.com/products/def...ction=products

TOOHSOTKIL · 06-28-2009, 10:05 PM

GHEESH!! A shotgun has a minimum 18" barrel, a rifle has a minimum 16" barrel the minimum OAL of both is 26" and you still claim it is measured with the stock extended..........as Bugs Bunny says........what a maroon!

MikeWilliamson · 06-28-2009, 10:11 PM

I'm saying that while manufacturers have apparently made some underfolders that are 25.75", I'm being paranoid and want to see a cite.

I have never claimed it's measured with the stock extended. I don't know or I wouldn't ask.

Pistol grip only shotguns are quite common.

Your answers have not been helpful.

thanks

Mike

johnlives4christ · 06-29-2009, 04:27 AM

a pistol grip shotgun with an 18" barrel is still just a tad over the minimum 26 inches overall length.

best thing to do is call them or write a letter and find out your question right from the ATF that way you have piece of mind on the subject

~john

TOOHSOTKIL · 06-29-2009, 08:40 AM

The only reason you find my answers non-helpful is the fact you won`t accept them. You came and asked a question. I answered it, then others made up or guessed the stock MUST be open. That is incorrect, but that is the answer you decided to accept.

If you do not understand the laws, or where to verify them......do not ask a question.

Most here don`t even understand the SBR anyway.

I didn`t make this up just to make a post, this forum is to ask questions and get the answer, sorry you took the others advice, maybe you should use the bottom of the page.....GOOGLE

Alpo · 06-29-2009, 09:12 AM

Yes, Mike. Please. Write ATF. Ask them. When they write back scan the letter and post it.

MikeWilliamson · 06-29-2009, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpo

Yes, Mike. Please. Write ATF. Ask them. When they write back scan the letter and post it.

Yup, sending one out today.

Hey, I might get $1000.

Alpo · 06-29-2009, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TOOHSOTKIL

$1,000.00 says the stock is closed for this question.
Why place a permanent pin in a folding stock to skirt that very issue.
Pistol grip only shotguns.....ever seen one??
BET????

Just to prevent editing.

MikeWilliamson · 06-29-2009, 11:04 AM

Also, I'm aware that legally a short weapon with a long barrel might be considered a pistol rather than an SBR. However, I figured the subject SBR would get people who knew.

TOOHSOTKIL · 06-29-2009, 11:36 AM

Well dog food, I`ll wait for my check.......you are taking the bet with your curt copy and paste.......CORRECT??

MikeWilliamson · 06-29-2009, 11:41 AM

He nor I offered nothing. You did. You were also wrong about pistol grip shotguns. Yes, I've seen several. Pinned stocks are not required in most states. That's an old AWB matter.

You're apparently not very coherent on this subject.

TOOHSOTKIL · 07-02-2009, 06:30 PM

Please explain how the shotgun was wrong. A shotgun must maintain a 18" barrel and an OAL of 26". This is generally why SxS and O&U aren`t used when they have an 18" barrel and are cut down.

A folding stock pinned was an example not the only example. A pinned stock was also used when the assualt weapon ban went into effect and the pistol grip issue became the issue.

The SBR has nothing to do with OAL and why everyone here seems to not understand this is the very problem. You rifle can be seven feet long, but if the barrel is less than 16" it is a SBR, if your shotgun is seven feet long and the barrel is less than 18", it too is illegal.

The gun in question being built above (kit gun) is legal length. Bet??

Detachable is what is used when folded enters and that`s where the 26" rules came fromDetachable. That is also why pinned came about (even before AWB/States or otherwise).

The stock can be removed at the folding juction, since BATF&E has stated the following concerning several rules.
"Can be easily converted"

This can be used and is as to demilled firearms/machine guns/AOW`s ect.

This is why the two points measured are the furthest forward and aft.
Sometimes on folders the union is further back than the bottom of the pistol grip.

Make sure you save this too...........

TOOHSOTKIL · 07-02-2009, 06:37 PM

Sorry incorrect....

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWilliamson

Also, I'm aware that legally a short weapon with a long barrel might be considered a pistol rather than an SBR. However, I figured the subject SBR would get people who knew.

johnlives4christ · 07-02-2009, 07:21 PM

i think it is with the stock extended. the reason is this. kel tec sub 2000 rifles aren't over 26 when folded. uzi carbines with 16" barrels aren't over 26 when the stock is collapsed.

i was at a gunstore the other day that had an uzi carbine, 16 barrel and colapsing stock. this was one of the largest gunstores in the country, whittaker guns. it would have to be legal for them to sell it, else when the feds show up you just point in their direction.

TOOHSOTKIL · 07-02-2009, 08:13 PM

The UZI with a 16' barrel meets the 26" rule, the Kel-Tec meets this rule by simply being worthless unless unfolded----it will not nor cannot be made to fire unless unfolded and locked into position.

johnlives4christ · 07-02-2009, 11:51 PM

any uzi with a 16" barrel and collapsed stock is approximately 24 inches, not over the 26 minimum overall length. the ATF does measure with the stock extended, not with it collapsed. if you like i can post the link to the page where it verifies this. also i was wondering if your bet is open to anyone or just mikewilliamson.

~john

06-26-2009, 11:33 AM	#1
MikeWilliamson Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 27	SBR definition question I've asked this in other fora and not gotten anything concrete beyond, "everyone does it." Obviously, I'm not using that as legal advice. I'm building an AK underfolder on my own receiver. OAL with stock folded without muzzle brake is going to be right at 25.5" Does the 26" minimum OAL for rifles apply with the stock folded or extended? I need an actual cite from somewhere, not an opinion. I know several mfrs have made ones exactly to this spec, but that doesn't mean of itself that it's legit. Also, I presume but want to confirm that a forward pistol grip is legal for use with stock folded. If lengthening, would welding the brake to the detent be sufficient? It could be cut off with a hacksaw in a few seconds, but would not be removable otherwise. -->

06-26-2009, 04:24 PM	#2
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,647	Re: SBR definition question My understanding is the OAL is measured with the stock extended. You are aware that, even if the gun is over the 26 inch mark, you still have to have a barrel at least 16 inches long, right? Forward pistol grips are legal on rifles, whether the stock is folded/collapsed or not. And, yes, if you wanted to make it longer, welding an extension on (welding, not soldering or brazing) is sufficient. It is true you could cut the extension off with a hacksaw, but you could cut a 24" barrel down with a hacksaw also. No hoo-hoo. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

06-26-2009, 04:34 PM	#3
MikeWilliamson Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 27	Re: SBR definition question Yup, standard AK barrel is slightly over 16". No problem there. I know that "extended measure" is the commonly accepted, but paranoid that I am, I'd like to see Title 18, USC or a letter from the ATF to that effect and not assume. Or I could weld on a rear single point mount to the trunnion.

06-26-2009, 05:41 PM	#4
TOOHSOTKIL V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Curracus Posts: 318	Re: SBR definition question Any weapon on the unpapered trail is measured the same way, with the stock folded. As it would appear if no stock were attached. (The longest of each end---pistol grip aft, muzzle nut/flashider front) You are at the minimum and with a flash-hider attached it will meet the 26" requirement.......it is part of the length (flash-hider) you will also find that a muzzle nut (in place of the FH) will add the correct length too. If not threaded at the end, the barrel should be 17". SBR is a "short barreled weapon" OAL has nothing to do with that definition. Last edited by TOOHSOTKIL; 06-26-2009 at 05:43 PM..

06-27-2009, 01:07 PM	#5
Bill DeShivs Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Contributor Posts: 1,467	Re: SBR definition question It is my understanding that OAL is measured with the stock open, and that it does not have to be 26" when folded. Write a letter to ATF about this and get official documentation. Brazing or high temperature silver soldering a brake on is acceptable. Soft (lead or low-temp. "silver solder") is not acceptable. __________________ Bill DeShivs www.billdeshivs.com

06-27-2009, 04:42 PM	#6
MikeWilliamson Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 27	Re: SBR definition question Thanks. I better drop them an inquiry just to make sure.

06-28-2009, 11:30 AM	#7
TOOHSOTKIL V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Curracus Posts: 318	Re: SBR definition question $1,000.00 says the stock is closed for this question. Why place a permanent pin in a folding stock to skirt that very issue. Pistol grip only shotguns.....ever seen one?? BET????

06-28-2009, 05:02 PM	#8
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,647	Re: SBR definition question I believe the "permanent pin in a folding stock" has to do with California and New York's assault weapon laws. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

06-28-2009, 07:32 PM	#9
TOOHSOTKIL V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Curracus Posts: 318	Re: SBR definition question $1,000.00 ??

06-28-2009, 10:05 PM	#11
TOOHSOTKIL V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Curracus Posts: 318	Re: SBR definition question GHEESH!! A shotgun has a minimum 18" barrel, a rifle has a minimum 16" barrel the minimum OAL of both is 26" and you still claim it is measured with the stock extended..........as Bugs Bunny says........what a maroon!

06-28-2009, 10:11 PM	#12
MikeWilliamson Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 27	Re: SBR definition question I'm saying that while manufacturers have apparently made some underfolders that are 25.75", I'm being paranoid and want to see a cite. I have never claimed it's measured with the stock extended. I don't know or I wouldn't ask. Pistol grip only shotguns are quite common. Your answers have not been helpful. thanks Mike

06-29-2009, 04:27 AM	#13
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: SBR definition question a pistol grip shotgun with an 18" barrel is still just a tad over the minimum 26 inches overall length. best thing to do is call them or write a letter and find out your question right from the ATF that way you have piece of mind on the subject ~john

06-29-2009, 08:40 AM	#14
TOOHSOTKIL V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Curracus Posts: 318	Re: SBR definition question The only reason you find my answers non-helpful is the fact you won`t accept them. You came and asked a question. I answered it, then others made up or guessed the stock MUST be open. That is incorrect, but that is the answer you decided to accept. If you do not understand the laws, or where to verify them......do not ask a question. Most here don`t even understand the SBR anyway. I didn`t make this up just to make a post, this forum is to ask questions and get the answer, sorry you took the others advice, maybe you should use the bottom of the page.....GOOGLE

06-29-2009, 09:12 AM	#15
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,647	Re: SBR definition question Yes, Mike. Please. Write ATF. Ask them. When they write back scan the letter and post it. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

06-29-2009, 11:04 AM	#18
MikeWilliamson Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 27	Re: SBR definition question Also, I'm aware that legally a short weapon with a long barrel might be considered a pistol rather than an SBR. However, I figured the subject SBR would get people who knew.

06-29-2009, 11:36 AM	#19
TOOHSOTKIL V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Curracus Posts: 318	Re: SBR definition question Well dog food, I`ll wait for my check.......you are taking the bet with your curt copy and paste.......CORRECT??

06-29-2009, 11:41 AM	#20
MikeWilliamson Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 27	Re: SBR definition question He nor I offered nothing. You did. You were also wrong about pistol grip shotguns. Yes, I've seen several. Pinned stocks are not required in most states. That's an old AWB matter. You're apparently not very coherent on this subject.

07-02-2009, 06:30 PM	#21
TOOHSOTKIL V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Curracus Posts: 318	Re: SBR definition question Please explain how the shotgun was wrong. A shotgun must maintain a 18" barrel and an OAL of 26". This is generally why SxS and O&U aren`t used when they have an 18" barrel and are cut down. A folding stock pinned was an example not the only example. A pinned stock was also used when the assualt weapon ban went into effect and the pistol grip issue became the issue. The SBR has nothing to do with OAL and why everyone here seems to not understand this is the very problem. You rifle can be seven feet long, but if the barrel is less than 16" it is a SBR, if your shotgun is seven feet long and the barrel is less than 18", it too is illegal. The gun in question being built above (kit gun) is legal length. Bet?? Detachable is what is used when folded enters and that`s where the 26" rules came fromDetachable. That is also why pinned came about (even before AWB/States or otherwise). The stock can be removed at the folding juction, since BATF&E has stated the following concerning several rules. "Can be easily converted" This can be used and is as to demilled firearms/machine guns/AOW`s ect. This is why the two points measured are the furthest forward and aft. Sometimes on folders the union is further back than the bottom of the pistol grip. Make sure you save this too...........

07-02-2009, 07:21 PM	#23
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: SBR definition question i think it is with the stock extended. the reason is this. kel tec sub 2000 rifles aren't over 26 when folded. uzi carbines with 16" barrels aren't over 26 when the stock is collapsed. i was at a gunstore the other day that had an uzi carbine, 16 barrel and colapsing stock. this was one of the largest gunstores in the country, whittaker guns. it would have to be legal for them to sell it, else when the feds show up you just point in their direction.

07-02-2009, 08:13 PM	#24
TOOHSOTKIL V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Curracus Posts: 318	Re: SBR definition question The UZI with a 16' barrel meets the 26" rule, the Kel-Tec meets this rule by simply being worthless unless unfolded----it will not nor cannot be made to fire unless unfolded and locked into position.

07-02-2009, 11:51 PM	#25
johnlives4christ Former Guest Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,828	Re: SBR definition question any uzi with a 16" barrel and collapsed stock is approximately 24 inches, not over the 26 minimum overall length. the ATF does measure with the stock extended, not with it collapsed. if you like i can post the link to the page where it verifies this. also i was wondering if your bet is open to anyone or just mikewilliamson. ~john