SBR definition question

[MikeWilliamson]

Originally Posted by TOOHSOTKIL

Sorry incorrect....

Originally Posted by MikeWilliamson View Post
Also, I'm aware that legally a short weapon with a long barrel might be considered a pistol rather than an SBR. However, I figured the subject SBR would get people who knew.

Pistol grip, under 26" OAL, is a pistol, regardless of barrel length.

None of your responses have been of any use in addressing my question. I will ignore all further posts of yours, except to post any concrete information from ATF.

[TOOHSOTKIL]

Some folks should never be able to own firearms, and this is the very reason!

Originally Posted by MikeWilliamson

Pistol grip, under 26" OAL, is a pistol, regardless of barrel length.

None of your responses have been of any use in addressing my question. I will ignore all further posts of yours, except to post any concrete information from ATF.

[MikeWilliamson]

Hey, Tooh...you might want to actually check out who I am before you start acting all smug and superior. Just sayin

If a rifle has to be 26" OAL, then under 26" is pistol. Unless you're going to call it a "thingamabob."

Incidentally, if you believe that disagreeing with you is a reason people shouldn't own firearms, you might want to wander over to the Brady forums, where you belong, and stop trolling unless you have an ACTUAL CITE to offer, rather than inane comments.

[Alpo]

Sorry, you're wrong there.

A rifle has to be at least 26 inches long. A rifle also has to have a barrel at least 16 inches long. If the barrel is shorter than 16 inches or the overall length is less than 26 inches, it is an NFA item known as a "Short Barreled Rifle". It's not a pistol.

If you buy a Thompson Center Encore pistol, with a ten-inch barrel, it's a pistol. Take that barrel off, and put a 20-inch rifle barrel on it, leaving the pistol grip, and it's still a pistol. Take off the pistol grip and put a rifle stock on it, and it's still a pistol. It was made as a pistol, so it's a pistol.

But if you buy an Encore rifle (which uses the exact same receiver as the Encore pistol) and put a 10" barrel on it, it is an unpapered SBR, and you can go to jail. If you leave the 20" barrel on it, but put the pistol grip on it, it is now shorter than 26 inches, and is an unpapered SBR, and you can go to jail.

NFA rules don't make a lot of sense. Basically, if it started as a rifle, it is always a rifle. If you make it undersize, then it is a Short Barreled Rifle, but it is still a rifle.

[MikeWilliamson]

Yes, and I'm building the receiver. If it's under 26" OAL with no stock, it would be a pistol. Over 26" OAL with barrel over 16", it would be a rifle. With forward grip, short barrel and no stock, an AOW. With folding stock and short barrel, an SBR. With folding stock, long barrel...what happens to OAL?

I have sent in an official request.

Since there are mfrs making 25.5" underfolders with 16" barrels, I presume that open length is measured.

Since I'm paranoid and insist on abiding by the letter of the law, I want it in writing.

Assuming that's the case, I know where I'm spending that $1000 that's coming to me.

[MikeWilliamson]

Title 27 CFR Chapter II Part 479

Firearm.
(a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(e) any other weapon, as defined in this subpart;
(f) a machine gun;
(g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition; and
(h) a destructive device.

The term shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machine gun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Director finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

Hmm..."extreme ends" would seem to indicate stock extended.

I think I can buy a lot of 7.62X39 with $1000.

[pkcgbifaid]

The state police department I work for says that the overall length is determined with the collapsible or folding stock in its extended position. I have been told the BATF uses the same requirements, but I cannot quote any specific code since the federal definition is somewhat ambiguous. Sorry I cannot be of more help.

[Alpo]

Originally Posted by MikeWilliamson

Hmm..."extreme ends" would seem to indicate stock extended.

I think I can buy a lot of 7.62X39 with $1000.

Not as much as you used to could.

Hmm. Think about that. Not as much as you used to could.

[TOOHSOTKIL]

Who are you?? Someone who thinks that anything under 26OAL is a pistol-that is your claim of superior knowledge. I have several AK/AKM`s some very rare.....pre1980. Not one measures 25 1/2 inches with the stock folded.
They are all 26-26 1/2. I`m sure you have the exception.

Where did your receiver come from, must not be to spec.

Please keep ignoring me, it`s doing you great benefit.

Originally Posted by MikeWilliamson

Hey, Tooh...you might want to actually check out who I am before you start acting all smug and superior. Just sayin

If a rifle has to be 26" OAL, then under 26" is pistol. Unless you're going to call it a "thingamabob."

Incidentally, if you believe that disagreeing with you is a reason people shouldn't own firearms, you might want to wander over to the Brady forums, where you belong, and stop trolling unless you have an ACTUAL CITE to offer, rather than inane comments.

[MikeWilliamson]

You own a few guns? That's great. You should go into consulting. You can put that on the bottom of your advice letters. "I own a few guns."



https://www.cogunsales.com/index.php...chk=1&Itemid=1
Overall Length (assembled): 35"; Folded Length: 25.5"; Barrel: 16.5"; Weight, Unloaded w/out Bayonet: 8.25 lbs; Action Type: Semi-Automatic; Caliber: 7.62 x 39 mm; Bluing: Exceeds 90%; Bore: Non-chrome-lined, dark.


https://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GRI1216X
Yugo AK-47 Under Folder 7.62X39mm

CALIBER 7.62 X 39MM
TYPE ACTION SEMI-AUTO
BARREL LENGTH 16 1/4" BARREL WITH SLANT FLASH
OVERALL LENGTH 34 1/4" [open. That's SHORTER than the one above...]
WEIGHT 7.5 LBS



Do please define a pistol for me. What would you call something that was under 26" OAL and not an SBR? It's not a rifle, it's not an SBR, so it's a...pistol? Can you quote Title 27 CFR for me?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...3&postcount=36

Does this help?

"I had submitted a question to the BATF regarding the legality of attaching a folding stock to a pistol with a 16" barrel. I had in mind a Thompson Encore 15" .30-06 w/permanently attached muzzle break (for 16" total). I thought the response was interesting and would be appreciated by the many Encore/Contender enthusiasts who have grappled with the legal ramifications of reconfiguration:

-------------------------------

Dear __________________:

This is in reply to your correspondence which was received by the Firearms Technology Branch, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), on January 30, 2008. In your letter you inquire about the attachment of a folding stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater.

As background, 27 CFR Sec. 479.11 (Meaning of Terms) states, in part:

The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

Based on this description of overall length and its correct measurement, ATF has taken the position that firearms having folding or collapsible stocks are properly measured for overall length with the stock fully extended.
In the situation you present, the attachment of a folding shoulder stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater would be lawful as long as the overall length of the resulting firearm is at least 26 inches with the stock fully extended. We caution that, because the configuration you have specified results in the manufacture of a rifle, a subsequent reconfiguration of the firearm to a pistol configuration would result in a weapon made from a rifle, which is a weapon controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA).

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch"

~~~

Please PM me. I'll give you my address. As soon as I get a letter from them saying the same thing, you can send me that $1000.

Thanks for your expertise. I appreciate it. Also your money.

[TOOHSOTKIL]

I am unaware of owning a few guns, I believe my statement was I own(collect) a few/several AK/AKM`s. It must be at least two more than you-per your statement.

Boy I wish I had a TV..........
LMAO-ROTF

Originally Posted by MikeWilliamson

You own a few guns? That's great. You should go into consulting. You can put that on the bottom of your advice letters. "I own a few guns."



https://www.cogunsales.com/index.php...chk=1&Itemid=1
Overall Length (assembled): 35"; Folded Length: 25.5"; Barrel: 16.5"; Weight, Unloaded w/out Bayonet: 8.25 lbs; Action Type: Semi-Automatic; Caliber: 7.62 x 39 mm; Bluing: Exceeds 90%; Bore: Non-chrome-lined, dark.


https://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GRI1216X
Yugo AK-47 Under Folder 7.62X39mm

CALIBER 7.62 X 39MM
TYPE ACTION SEMI-AUTO
BARREL LENGTH 16 1/4" BARREL WITH SLANT FLASH
OVERALL LENGTH 34 1/4" [open. That's SHORTER than the one above...]
WEIGHT 7.5 LBS



Do please define a pistol for me. What would you call something that was under 26" OAL and not an SBR? It's not a rifle, it's not an SBR, so it's a...pistol? Can you quote Title 27 CFR for me?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...3&postcount=36

Does this help?

"I had submitted a question to the BATF regarding the legality of attaching a folding stock to a pistol with a 16" barrel. I had in mind a Thompson Encore 15" .30-06 w/permanently attached muzzle break (for 16" total). I thought the response was interesting and would be appreciated by the many Encore/Contender enthusiasts who have grappled with the legal ramifications of reconfiguration:

-------------------------------

Dear __________________:

This is in reply to your correspondence which was received by the Firearms Technology Branch, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), on January 30, 2008. In your letter you inquire about the attachment of a folding stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater.

As background, 27 CFR Sec. 479.11 (Meaning of Terms) states, in part:

The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

Based on this description of overall length and its correct measurement, ATF has taken the position that firearms having folding or collapsible stocks are properly measured for overall length with the stock fully extended.
In the situation you present, the attachment of a folding shoulder stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater would be lawful as long as the overall length of the resulting firearm is at least 26 inches with the stock fully extended. We caution that, because the configuration you have specified results in the manufacture of a rifle, a subsequent reconfiguration of the firearm to a pistol configuration would result in a weapon made from a rifle, which is a weapon controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA).

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch"

~~~

Please PM me. I'll give you my address. As soon as I get a letter from them saying the same thing, you can send me that $1000.

Thanks for your expertise. I appreciate it. Also your money.

[MikeWilliamson]

Regardless of how many you may own in Rainbow Six, that does not constitute useful legal advice. So far, what I have is:

ATF has taken the position that firearms having folding or collapsible stocks are properly measured for overall length with the stock fully extended.

I am awaiting a paper letter myself, which it seems will probably state the same thing.

Originally Posted by TOOHSOTKIL View Post
$1,000.00 says the stock is closed for this question.
Why place a permanent pin in a folding stock to skirt that very issue.
Pistol grip only shotguns.....ever seen one??
BET????

You will then send me $1000.

[TOOHSOTKIL]

ROTFLMAO!!


QUOTE=MikeWilliamson;470571]Pistol grip, under 26" OAL, is a pistol, regardless of barrel length.

None of your responses have been of any use in addressing my question. I will ignore all further posts of yours, except to post any concrete information from ATF.[/QUOTE]

[MikeWilliamson]

When can I expect my $1000? And that is the legal definition of a pistol, as was posted higher up.

[TOOHSOTKIL]

AK`s measure 26 OAL with or without folded or unfolded stocks, removed.
Care to see the rifle, I think the barrel goes to 16, but the rest is the same.
So if you fold it and it`s less than 26 inches...what do you have??



"
NFA because it has barrels that are 18 inches in length and the overall length of the firearm, with stock
extended, is more than 26 inches. However, if the shoulder stock has been removed from the 18-inch
barrel version of the Game Getter, the firearm has an overall length of less than 26 inches and is an
NFA weapon. Specifically, the firearm is classified as a weapon made from a rifle/shotgun.
The “any other weapon” definition excludes weapons designed to be fired from the shoulder that are not
capable of firing fixed ammunition or a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore. However, certain
alterations to a pistol or revolver, such as the addition of a second vertical handgrip, create a weapon that
no longer meets the definition of pistol or revolver.14 A pistol or revolver modified as described is an
“any other weapon” subject to the NFA because the weapon is not designed to be fired when"

[MikeWilliamson]

Some twit PMed me with:

If you owned an AK, you would not have even posed this question. The fact that others cannot measure correctly means little to me, but in front of BATF&E I bet they`re AK`s measure 26+ inches without the stock.

Matter of fact, have them take they`re (dealers you listed ads) AK`s to a branch office and remove the folding stocks and ask them what they now have?

I bet in every case that the AK without a stock is 26+ inches.

Just buy one and shut up.

Like this one?:



Which, incidentally, measures 25-3/8" from muzzle crown to rear of the receiver, though as a non-folder, it has a protruding rear tang. As an underfolder, it would measure 25-3/8".

ATF has taken the position that firearms having folding or collapsible stocks are properly measured for overall length with the stock fully extended.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch"

As to what I know about guns...

Here's my daughter with one of the 1919A4s I've built:


The M4 I built for her:


A 1916 Mauser I'm restocking, after doing some trigger work and mounting rails:


Some other stuff I'm working on:


A few from the closet, which doesn't include the vault, my office or my shop:



A 10-22 I neatened up:



My AR pistol:



The brand new GUU5P I was issued in the Sandbox:



FWIW, I've shot expert 24 years straight, Army, Air Force, day, night and in protective mask, and hold National Guard trophies.

A riot gun I built:



An 1888 Commission Rifle, arrived as parts, rebuilt, stocked, just needs sights:



One I built on a Cav Arms receiver which they sent me to review and test fire:



One I had fun with:



Another shot of my daughter's:



My house gun:



My reviews of (among others) the Ultramag .50 and the LAR 8 carbine. I enjoy getting free rifles :

http://michaelzwilliamson.com/reviews.php

Now, do you have something you want to say from an official source? Or do you just want to send me my $1000 and go away?

[TOOHSOTKIL]

And now you have a few guns, and you posed the original question why??


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/index.htm

[Suicide*Ride]

WOW!!! Them's some NICE firearms Mike!! Judging from how cute your daughter is....... looks like you're gunna need them too!! (in about 7-10yrs)

Welcome to the forum Mike! You'll fit right in & should like it here.

BTW - Did I say........ I LOVE gun porn!! Drool city!!!

PS. Great website!!

toohsotkil - You should take the $1,000 that you'll never pay to Mike & go buy an industrial grade spatula...... you're gunna need 1 to scrape the egg from your face!!

SR

[MikeWilliamson]

Originally Posted by TOOHSOTKIL

And now you have a few guns, and you posed the original question why??


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/index.htm

If the answer to my question is there, please cut and paste.

I've already found one source that supports what I had seen.

As I said, I prefer actual documentation rather than "Everyone does it."

I'm interested in these AKs you have that are an inch longer than everyone else's though. Should be worth some money.

BTW, if you MANUFACTURE a weapon under 26", it is not a "Weapon made from a rifle," since it was never a rifle. It would be a...pistol. Unless it had a stock, in which case it would be an SBR.

You've been wrong on everything so far. Lots of opinions, no actual substance.

So, got the check ready?

[Crpdeth]

Nice pics! Good job Mike!

[MikeWilliamson]

MUST be measured with stock extended.

The only reason you find my answers non-helpful is the fact you won`t accept them. You came and asked a question. I answered it, then others made up or guessed the stock MUST be open. That is incorrect, but that is the answer you decided to accept.

If you do not understand the laws, or where to verify them......do not ask a question.

I didn`t make this up just to make a post, this forum is to ask questions and get the answer, sorry you took the others advice, maybe you should use the bottom of the page.....GOOGLE

ATF 1, Toohsotlik or whatever his name is and google, 0.

And let's review:

$1,000.00 says the stock is closed for this question.
Why place a permanent pin in a folding stock to skirt that very issue.
Pistol grip only shotguns.....ever seen one??
BET????

I whited out my address on the scan. I assume when I PM it to you the check will be forthcoming shortly?

[TOOHSOTKIL]

Wow, before we start on your new labeled "opinion", lets step back to when you could have sported a set. I placed a public bet for all to see; a few even copied it for proof???

I looked front to back to see if "anyone" said......"I will take that bet"......."DEAL"........."I`m In" ............ECT!!!!!!!!

This is you set-less reply:#21

Originally Posted by MikeWilliamson

He nor I offered nothing. You did. You were also wrong about pistol grip shotguns. Yes, I've seen several. Pinned stocks are not required in most states. That's an old AWB matter.

You're apparently not very coherent on this subject.

You now have another opinion. Care to continue???

[MikeWilliamson]

You're the one who said pinned stocks were required, that length was measured closed, and offered $1000.

You were wrong on the former, wrong on the latter. You were wrong on the length of an AK. You're wrong on the definition of a pistol. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You came in, opened your mouth, inserted your foot, and began to chew. You had no documentation, just a lot of brassy braggadocio and a challenge.

So where's my $1000, bitch?

Or do you want to admit you really don't know much about firearms and just sneak off quietly?

There's about 6 fora of people watching this thread and laughing.

It's okay not to know everything--that's why when I didn't find a concrete reference, I wrote and asked the relevant authority--which is what someone else also suggested. You PMed me the same FAQ from the ATF I'd already looked at without an answer. You just insisted I take your word for it, and you were wrong.

So man up, admit it, and let's move on, shall we?

Now, do you want my address?

[Alpo]

I believe the word is "welsher".

welsh (wlsh, wlch) also welch (wlch)
intr.v. welshed also welched, welsh·ing also welch·ing, welsh·es also welch·es Informal
1. To swindle a person by not paying a debt or wager.
2. To fail to fulfill an obligation.

welsher n

[Hammerslagger]

Thanks to Mike Williamson for writing to the BATF!

Further in connection with the Mike Williamson post of 8/20/2009 time-stamped 09:33 PM; which shows a letter dated "AUG 13 2009" from the BATF's Chief, Firearms Technology Branch, Mr. John R. Spencer.

Mike needs to write a respectful follow up letter to Chief Spencer, citing this post, and asking for an explanation and clarification of the current Federal Enforcement Standards for the numerous variable stock length rifles (that can be fired at a length, of less than 26 OAL), and were legally sold as ordinary rifles, with Fed Form 4473 paperwork, after the BATF gave its blessing for the importation of the IMI Uzi "Carbine Model A" with a closed bolt firing system, 16.1" barrel, and folding stock that gave it a shootable OAL of 24.?" stock folded.

It appears that Mr Spencer's statement (if correct, on its face, for possession of some previously and legally purchased firearms) may put many persons who purchased some firearms in unknowing violation of the NFA as he explained it.

I am working from memories here. Their likely accuracy will be obviously supported by well known historical facts familiar to many readers here.

Using the BBGV for quick date references the importation of the IMI Uzi semi-auto, closed bolt firing system, 16.1" barrel folding stock carbine began in 1980. Its stock retracted OAL was 24.?" and extended OAL was 28.?".

I remember reading a short article in a gun magazine (likely the Am. Rifleman) announcing its coming importation. The article remarked that at IMI's request the BATF had ruled that since it was over 26" with its stock extended it was not a SBR under the NFA and could be imported and sold as an ordinary rifle.

Obviously, many of these carbines were imported and sold in many US states as ordinary rifles with a Fed. Form 4473. Many were sold in Michigan as pistols because MI LAW DEFINES ANY FIREARM LESS THAN 30" OAL AS A PISTOL when in MI, and subject to MI State Police registration.

Then, in what is known as a "Numbered Attorney General Opinion" in MI; Mich. Attorney Gen., Frank Kelly effectively outlawed the folding stock Uzi as a SBR in MI. MI law adopted the language of the Fed. NFA (almost word for word). Kelly declared that since it was fireable at 24.?" it was a SBR in MI that could not be possessed by private citizens. Many MI owners who had legally purchased these Uzi had to forfeit them of make their shortest possible shootable length 26" or more. {This could be done to satisfy the state only by welding the stock open of fitting it with the wood Uzi stock.

On more than one occasion the BATF has changed the rules (sometimes retroactively) relative to what items are NFA items, after many of the items have been legally sold. In some cases owners have been tracked down using sales records and "grandfathered in" (eg Street-Sweeper shotguns) in other cases forfeiture or destruction was the only solution (eg Spitfire 45 ACP carbines made prior to 1968).

I keep as far away from anything covered by the NFA as I can. I have personally witnessed the problems and "headaches" that involvement with then can bring. But, I do try to stay well informed about many things (including NFA matters), because what you do not know can cause you serious problems.

Chief Spencer's letter (if correct in all cases) indicates that a lot of law abiding US residents are in unknowing and very serious violation of the NFA law. Hopefully, Mike will write to Mr. Spencer, again; and share his findings with this forum.