A few reloading questions

[field]

ok im just using a Hornady single action press and i have all of my dies and got my powder dispener set up accurately and all that. Last night i went through the procedure and loaded a few rounds. but theres a few things i need to know about before i actually try shooting any rounds i load.

i am loading 9mm ammo.

1. what does the carbide sizing die do other than punch out the old primer? does it narrow the case back it original dimensions?

2. when using the expander die, how can i tell if i have 'expanded' the case too much? like it says to expand the case just enough to allow you to seat a bullet with your fingers. what would indicate i have expanded too much or not enough?

3. how possible is it that a bullet would not get seated comletely straight in the casing? what would happen when firing a bullet out of your gun that is not seated 100% straight? im probably dumb for asking this but still.

4. what is the effective difference between a 'soft' crimp and a 'hard' crimp? what difference does this make when a bullet is fired? if i am loading regular 115g 9mm ammo how can i visually tell if i have the correct crimp? what would happen if the crimp is too soft or too hard?

[Southern Boy]

Hello, to answer your questions, first off the sizing die does just that, re-sizes the brass back to spec., and straightens the case walls. When you have'nt expanded enough, you cannot start the bullet in the case by hand. You need to expand just enough to start the bullet into the case, thats all otherwise the bullet or case could be damaged from cathing as the bullet is seated. When seating the bullet to the proper deptth, it will be straight enough. None are really perfect unless using a reading match grade seater or similar high dollar, but they will be pretty darn close with any die in good shape. Nothing to worry about there. Crimp is a little more technical. Of course you have to crimp tight enough to keep the bullet from moving in the case and possibly falling out and spilling powder, that could be dangerous. I set my crimp fairly tight, then adjust by measuring FPS. Usually on a mid. caliber pistol you need a fairly tight crimp to raise pressures to load data info, but...not to tight. Just set the dies to the die instructions then ensure bullet is not loose by trying to pull out bullet. Then maybe fire 10 or so round and check for accuracy, crimp a little mor if needed. I have worked up several loads over the years that the only way to perfect after weeks of trial and error was to tighten my crimp some more. Look at some good web sights or better yet, visit a friend that loads and try to learn more about crimping. Most people never realizs what difference a crimp can make. DO NOT OVER-CRIMP. Too tight could cause damage, you know this I'm sure but...... I'm sure some more folks will chime in with more info for you, Good luck, and practise makes perfect.

[Alpo]

1 - yes, it squeezes the brass back down to original dimensions

2 - you want just a slight flare on the end of the case. If you don't have enough, when you try to seat a bullet it will crush the case (if using jacketed) or cut big chunks out of the bullet (is using lead). A good way to tell that you don't have enough bell is that it is very hard to get the bullet to stay on top of the case as it is going up into the seating die.

You have belled it too much when it will not go up into the seating die. The more you bell it, the easier it is to seat a bullet. But, the more you bell it, the more the brass is worked, so the sooner the mouth will crack. And, as I said, if you bell it too much it will be too big to go up in the die. The good rule of thumb is you want it belled just enough to let the bullet sit in it. It's hard to explain, but when you have screwed a couple of cases you will know how much is too much and how much is not enough. Just part of the "learning curve".

3 - no impossible, but very unlikely. The curve in the seating plug will tend to straighten the bullet as it seats it. If it is not seated straight you should not have to worry about what happens when it is fired, as it most likely will not chamber.

4 - that's another, "you've got to learn that one for yourself" kinda thing. The way it was explained to me, when I first started loading for automatic pistols, was to take a loaded round and put the nose up against the side of my loading bench. Then lean my weight on it. If the bullet did not go into the case any further the crimp was sufficient. And, sometimes that won't be enough. I have three 9mms sitting on top of my safe. They, all three, had their noses jammed into the bottom of the loading ramp, instead of going up it, and the force of the slide under spring pressure both gouged a huge divot in the nose of the bullet and pushed them back down into the case. Different loads, different guns, different times. But it happens.

[field]

wow ive been doing some loading...and... im kind of wondering why anyone would recommend using a single action press for reloading pistol ammo over a turret press. Other than worrying about somehow double loading a case im not sure why you would want to take almost 4 times as long to produce the same amount of ammunition

[FTK87]

Originally Posted by field

wow ive been doing some loading...and... im kind of wondering why anyone would recommend using a single action press for reloading pistol ammo over a turret press. Other than worrying about somehow double loading a case im not sure why you would want to take almost 4 times as long to produce the same amount of ammunition

A single stage is better for someone starting out because they really get the feel for all the different processes that you go through in making ammunition. It will make you appreciate each step much more.

[field]

Originally Posted by FTK87

A It will make you appreciate each step much more.

lol yeah you got that right

[field]

awsome so i shot my first 50 hand loaded rounds and they alll worked great, they seemed just as accurate if not more accurate than the factory ammo i was using. k time to go all out on the primers

[LDBennett]

A couple of points:

CRIMPING:

9 mm pistol dies come with a crimp die that makes a tapered crimp rather than a roll crimp that normally feeds into a groove on the bullet (as used on revolver cartridges). Set the crimp die up EXACTLY as stated in the die instruction for the proper amount of crimp. Taper crimps normally do not take well to trying to adjust them as an excessive amount of crimp collapses or necks-in the bullet itself, which can be detrimental to accuracy.

RELOADING PRESSES:

There are three styles of presses: Single stage as you currently use; Turret press where all dies are installed in the press and the cartridge is only put into the press once and the handle operated multiple times to do the required steps to complete a round; and Progressive presses where three or more cartridges cases are in the press at once, each having one of the processes done to it and each pull of the handle produces on completed round.

Single stage presses are limited to one process at a time taking multiple changes to the press and multiple placements of the case into the press and multiple pulls of the press handle to finish one round.

Turret presses get you one completed round with multiple pulls of the handle (usually three) but the case is only put in the press once. Turret presses can be used also as a single stage press, if you wish.

Progressive presses require the case be put in the press once and every handle pull yields one completed round, as multiple steps to multiple cases are all done at once. But most progressives can be used as a Turret press or a single stage press. My favorite (no surprise here, folks) is the Dillon RL550B as it is the most versatile of any of the progressives (in my opinion and others will differ here) but is backed by the best manufacture's warrantee program ever... the press is guaranteed forever against breakage or anything else that makes the press inoperable (even house fires, no kidding, as one guy found out but that's stretching it a bit beyond Dillon's responsibility but it happened). If a Dillon press wears out then Dillon rebuilds it for free. Mine is on it second rebuild in over 20 years of use (I reload for over 30 different cartridges!). If Dillon upgrades parts of the press they upgrade your press for free. The RL550B has been around for decades, is a proven design, has been updated several times at no cost to the owners, is durable and flat works.

LDBennett

[woolleyworm]

Welcome to TFF.
Had a couple of ??? for you,

Which reloading manuals do you own?
Which powder scale/dispenser do you use?

my take on single stage presses:

You will never get rid of a single stage press if you continue to reload. It will serve a purpose, ALWAYS. Hence, when given the initial costs, simple operation and better ability to focus on each individual step; its 100% the logical choice to lead a beginning reloader. I made very good use of my Chucker with my recent problems with the Fed pre-primed brass; it was clogging up my dies on the prog. So much easier to deal with a problem in only one stage of reloading, rather than having it affect other stages all at once.

Be Safe and Enjoy !

[LDBennett]

woolleyworm:

I said:

"But most progressives can be used as a Turret press or a single stage press."

"Turret presses can be used also as a single stage press, if you wish."


There is no reason to shy away from presses other than a single stage press or retain a single stage press if you have either a turret or a progressive. Nothing says you have to load up the table or attempt to do more than one stage at a time to "solve" problems with either the Progressive or the Turret press. Both will do the job of a single stage press if you stay away from Progressives that have Auto Table Rotation like the Lee and the Hornady and the RCBS (????). The Dillon RL550B is versatile BECAUSE it has manual table rotation and no tricky means of holding the case to the table. It can easily double as a single stage or turret press if you so desire.

Once a person has a Dillon RL550B there is no reaosn to have or retain a single stage press for normal reloading, in my opinion.

LDBennett

[field]

yeah i can see myself loading LOTS of cartridges at this point so im pretty sure sometime soon i will get a multi action press i mean yeah i guess reloading is kind of fun but to me its more something to be economical and allow me to shoot higher quantities of slightly better put together cartridges in order to become a better handgun shooter so i kind of would like the process to be as breif as safely possible.

[Alpo]

I realize that when you start something new there is usually new terms to learn, and you're new. But

Single action is a type of gun. A press is "single stage".

No such thing as "multi action" press. It's "progressive".

And, while I have a Dillon, it is sitting in the box, where it has been for the past 4 years since I swapped into it. I've been using a Rockchucker single stage for the past 35 years and can't begin to count the amount of ammo I've loaded on it. The last couple of months I've been using a Lee Hand Press. Single stage that isn't even bolted to a bench. Probably loaded ten thousand rounds. Yes, mostly pistol, but still. Turning 'em out. Progressives aren't REQUIRED.

[312shooter]

Field,

My situation is that I first bought a turret press and its great, however now I want to go to single stage for match quality rifle ammunition, the good thing about your situation is that you have learned a great deal on a single stage rather than squibbing a load on something that is overwhelming to a new reloader and getting injured. Are you batch loading (processing 50 or 100 at time then moving on to the next step) It will cut down a lot of time on a single stage. Have fun!

[woolleyworm]

Originally Posted by LDBennett

There is no reason to shy away from presses other than a single stage press or retain a single stage press if you have either a turret or a progressive. The Dillon RL550B is versatile BECAUSE it has manual table rotation and no tricky means of holding the case to the table. It can easily double as a single stage or turret press if you so desire.
LDBennett

Agree 100%, my comment was just specific to opinion of single stage presses only. Entry level cost and the aspect of "nothing to overly complicated" was all I was intending to highlight. I think the 550 is an excellent press; we're both fans of the Blue machines; ( I'm a little more silent on my dislike of Lee though ), but I think the 550 for a beginner is a little more of a challenge. If someone had a mentor or some assistance, I think the 550 would be perfect. All the parts, pieces and pages of instructions for most of us here wouldn't be an issue, but in the hands of a green reloader, it may prove a bit more mentally challenging.

[woolleyworm]

Originally Posted by 312shooter

Field,

My situation is that I first bought a turret press and its great, however now I want to go to single stage for match quality rifle ammunition,

Which turret do you have? You shouldn't have any problems getting high quality ammo out of a T-7, AT500 or the RCBS. I've had issues with the Lee being a little "sloppy", other than that, turrets are pretty much single stage with each stage "pre-set".


Field - still wondering..
Which reloading manuals do you own?
Which powder scale/dispenser do you use?

[colt]

Lots of good info LD, and all. Looking to get into the reloading soon, and will be going into it as a true rookie. Lots to learn.... THANKS.

[LDBennett]

Agreed, the Dillon seems complicated but the instruction are good and if used as a single stage press it is no more complicated than a RCBS or Lee single stage press. That's because it is not automated like the RL650 or the Hornady progressive. It has no case feeder or bullet feeders, just a primer feeder that is similar to any primer tool that holds a supply of primers in it. You hand feed the cases and the bullets. You manually rotate the table. When working progressive (and few people who start out using it single stage stay at single stage...99% go to progressive operation after as few as one or two reloading session) you get into a rhythm: advance table, insert case into station one while adding a bullet to station three, pull handle, set primer with handle, and repeat. I can do it blindfolded and in my sleep.

It can get complicated IF something screws up but because the RL550B is simple the problem is easily fixed. You go slow and deliberate at first, then you pick up speed but there is no need to race as you are many times faster than a single stage press. And it makes quality ammo equal to any single stage press.

Sorry for the sales pitch but so many shy away from a good progressive press when their reloading experience would be so enhanced by the use of a good one like the RL550B. But remember the more automation in a progressive then the more complicated, the harder to learn, and less it is like a simple turret or single stage press. That simplicity gives versatility, instead of speed.

LDBennett

[field]

Originally Posted by Alpo

Single action is a type of gun. A press is "single stage".

No such thing as "multi action" press. It's "progressive".

.

lol thank you i appreciate the info in another thread i was talking about the 'plastic thing in the magazine' and then this guy told me 'that is the follower' and now i use the word follower instead of plastic thing.

[field]

Originally Posted by 312shooter

Are you batch loading (processing 50 or 100 at time then moving on to the next step) It will cut down a lot of time on a single stage. Have fun!

yeah ill usually do as many cases as possible when going through a particular stage of the process.

[field]

Originally Posted by woolleyworm

Field - still wondering..
Which reloading manuals do you own?
Which powder scale/dispenser do you use?

Hornady manual and with the other 2 things...

when i get back ill just take a picture of them

[kingchip]

C'mon guys. I decided against the Dillon 550 so as not to get ahead of myself as per advise. Went with the LEE turret. Now I'm seeing that the Dillon would have been ok in manual mode. Oh well, too late for me. I'm not going to return it when it gets here.

Finished reading ABC's of Reloading. Waiting on my Lyman and Lee books.

[field]

so...from these rounds that i fired im assuming that crimping simply raises the peak pressure inside the case when the powder goes off and thus increases your projectile velocity...?

seeing as i didnt crimp any of them/*

(because even though these cartidges i loaded technically had the same powder amount as some of the factory ammo i was shooting it didnt seem to cause near as much muzzle flip or recoil and a few times i actually saw a quick orange trail of where the bullet actually went when i shot it

[Alpo]

I don't know how you would determine that your loads had the same "powder amount" as factory, without tearing down factory loads and weighing the charge. Even if they did have the same amount of powder, unless it was the same powder (and that's pretty unlikely) it wouldn't mean anything.

If you looked at Federal's ballistics table, and saw that their load with a 55 grain bullet went 3200 fps, and you saw in your loading manual that x amount of powder behind a 55 grain bullet would push it 3200 fps, you might assume you would be using the same powder charge as Federal did. You would be wrong, but you might assume that.

Recoil is based on, among other things, the burning rate of the powder. A faster burning powder will give a sharper recoil than a slower burning powder, even if both loads push the bullet to the same muzzle velocity.

Crimping has two functions, really. One is to assure complete burning of the charge. The longer the bullet sits still before it moves, and the longer it takes for the case mouth to expand completely out of the way, the better and more complete the powder burn is. If the case mouth comes off the bullet too soon, or the bullet starts down the barrel too soon, then the case might not be expanded to completely fill the chamber, and you get gas blowby. If gas is going backwards, towards the bolt, it is obviously not going forwards, pushing the bullet, so you have lower velocity. But the longer it takes for the bullet to move out of the gas's way, the better chance for the case to completely swell and block the chamber, so there is no where for the gas to go except down the barrel, pushing the bullet in front of it.

The other function of the crimp is to keep the bullet in the same place all the time. A too loose crimp can allow the bullet to move forward in the case. If it moves forward too far, it can lock your gun up, either by sticking out of the revolver cylinder, or jamming the magazine, or refusing to let your bolt close. But even if it only moves forward a little, it will change the amount of space available in the cartridge case, which will change the gas pressure, as more space with the same amount of gas means less pressure of the gas. Conversely, it could be moved back into the case. This will decrease the available space, which will increase the pressures (possibly disasterously). Plus, with a bottleneck case, if it comes in too far, the bullet ogive will slip out of the neck and the bullet will drop into the case body.

If you have good neck tension, you should not have a problem with bullet movement. But a good crimp is also nice.

I crimp everything. When I first started with rifle, I didn't crimp. Bolt action 308, box mag, no need for a crimp. Then I did some autoloader 223 with a box. They worked, but I started to wonder if a crimp might be needed. Then I did some lever 30/30 in a tube mag. Really need a crimp for that. After five rounds I saw that the next round was a quarter inch deeper seated than the others. Recoil. What a concept.

When I saw how nice and consistent things were in the 30/30 with the crimp, I started crimping all my rifles.

[LDBennett]

field said:

"seeing as i didnt crimp any of them/*"

OK. Are we still talking about 9mm pistol cartridges here? If so, then, when you installed the seating die exactly as per the instructions packed with the die set you set up the taper crimping part of the die to crimp.... so you DID crimp! Taper crimp.

The second die of the pistol reloading die set bells the mouth of the case so you can insert the bullet. It won't start into the case unless the case is belled because the first die, the sizing die made the inside of the case a couple of thousandths of an inch smaller than the diameter of the bullet to get "Neck Tension" on the bullet by the case. The seating die (when installed correctly) pushes the bell back along side the bullet and slightly into the bullet so that the bullet is held even better than just the neck tension. It can not be a rolled crimp (as used on revolvers) because the cartridge case of the 9mm has no rim to stop it from falling into the barrel chamber too far to the point the firing pin can't reach it. So the barrel chamber has a shelf in the chamber against which the mouth of the case stops. Only a taper crimp will allow that ledge to catch the cartridge mouth. A roll crimp would not. ALL rimless pistol semi-auto rounds headspace (stop in the barrel chamber) on the case mouth and all need the taper crimp and can not be use a roll crimp. **

Bolt rifles can be roll crimped, Lee Factory crimped, or not crimped at all under some conditions (see below).

Lever action guns (or any type action) that uses a tube magazine that stacks the rounds end to end MUST have a good roll crimp or the magazine tube spring and recoil will sink the bullet into the case and cause excessive pressures when eventually chambered and fired.

Any gun that carries multiple rounds in a magazine in the gun during firing subjects the ammo to recoil forces which MAY try to further seat the bullets into the case and cause excessive pressure. It is a good idea to crimp all ammo except that which is fed one round at a time as in single shot rifles or bolt action rifles that carry no cartridges in their magazines. Revolvers fall into the category of NEEDING a crimp, as do semi-auto rifles rimless or not.

All die sets come with a crimping operation built into the seating die IF the die is installed into the press correctly (as per the instructions). I find that, except for cases that must be taper crimped, the Lee Factory Crimp die is the easiest to use, is less dependent on case length, and gives a very repeatable and secure crimp.

LDBennett

** yes, I know about the earlier 38 Super guns that used the miniscule rim of the 38 Super case and the S&W Model 52 that shoots 38 Special cartridges and a couple of other guns that use rimmed cartridges.

[field]

i shot off 350 hand loaded rounds today and i didnt actually use the crimp die on any of them but i think it might be a good idea to do some kind of crimp because with 4 grains per case with this bullseye powder i was using it seemed to smoke the place up a bit more than regular 115g factory rounds ive used. that and upon inspecting the casings they seemed pretty black and grungier like the powder wasnt getting a chance to completely burn