GLOCK Model 37 .45cal EXPLODES in my 15 year olds hand

[VegasTech702]

Should have bought an XD not a POS exploding Glock. They are making quite a name for themselves in Explosive Guns. More proof of why I think they are inferior.

[RJay]

All I can say is that you must be mistaken, in spite of all the reports of Glocks that blow up or fire out of battery, I've been told by Glock owners that it is just a urban myth.

[Hammerslagger]

A few general comments then I will get into specific advice.

"The only way to never have any defects is to make nothing" From my experiences in dealing with CCI/Speer, Federal, and Glock they are responsible and honorable businesses. From my experiences Glock's products are among the best of their type, and an excellent value for the money, but nowhere near the "Prefection" that Glock has advertised for many years. However, Glock USA customer is as close to "perfect" (from my experiences) as any company ever gets. Speer and Federal are respected US quality ammo makers. I use lots of their products.

I understand your reluctance to give up all of your evidence. However, as no one incurred any permanent injury; just a broken pistol that needs to be replaced; I do not see this as being any big deal.

Hold off on further dis-assembly of the pistol until we can talk in person. If you go the members list of this forum, you can find me under Hammerslagger and send me a private message or email. Please include your phone number so that I can call, talk with, and further advise you. The time has come to get this matter out of the public eye.

HS

[glocknut]

There is nothing wrong with 9mm Glocks or their 45acp or 10mm either. I have taken a .40 s&w Glock apart in the gunshop and based on what i saw...i would not buy a Glock in 40 or 357. I have not seen a Glock chambered in 45gap yet but it soulds like it may have the unsupported chamber issues that their 40 has...?
Its a pitty...cause all Glock would have had to do was make their 40s just a smidget bit wider to have made them right....but NOOOOO... they didn't want to do that.....

I agree with what others have said...if you want a 40 then get an XD....However...why get a 40 when you can get a 45 instead? It doesn't make sense to me...

mike
gn

[Oldeyes]

I tend to go along with glocknut's hypothesis that the original problem was contributed to by a somewhat unsupported chamber. Years ago I had a very similar semi catastrophic failure on a .40 S&W Browning High Power shooting Fiocchi 180 gr. FMJ ammo. That one was eventually isolated down to an unsupported chamber coupled with European full power loads. One other thing which might have contributed to the .45 GAP's failure was if it had ever been fired with lead reloads at any point in its life. The leading up of Glock's polygonal rifling can be VERY subtle almost to a visually undetectable level. As you look through the bore of a leaded unit all you see is bright silver just like the regular bore material, but the friction component of the lead is definitely there until scrubbed out. Unfortunately, the combination of quite subtle leading in the polygonal bore and an unsupported chamber firing full power loads would quite easily result in an over pressure blow out condition just as you have experienced. Be thankful that the Glock's safety oriented pistol design channeled the bulk of the excess explosive force down into the mechanism. And, as others have said the XD's do not seem to share in the unsupported chamber issues AND they utilize standard rifling in the barrel. IMHO, had the XD's been available way back when, many folks stable of various flavors of Glocks would not be quite so deep.

[Hammerslagger]

Oldeyes is knowledgable.

[ArnoldsPupil]

Thanks you all for your insight.
Hammerslagger is very smart.

Thanks for the info.

Will let everyone know what transpires at Glock tomorrow

[glocknut]

Originally Posted by Oldeyes

One other thing which might have contributed to the .45 GAP's failure was if it had ever been fired with lead reloads at any point in its life. The leading up of Glock's polygonal rifling can be VERY subtle almost to a visually undetectable level. As you look through the bore of a leaded unit all you see is bright silver just like the regular bore material, but the friction component of the lead is definitely there until scrubbed out. Unfortunately, the combination of quite subtle leading in the polygonal bore and an unsupported chamber firing full power loads would quite easily result in an over pressure blow out condition just as you have experienced.

If... lead had been previously fired thru a glock i would have to think that they were really light loads. Its my understanding that Glocks do not react well to lead even at normal pressure loads...especially in the their 40s...
I just don't see it that someone that knows the art of reloading would actually mess around with running lead thru a Glock.
But then again...people do strange things....

mike
gn

[ArnoldsPupil]

So I showed up at 9:30 today and was greeted by a security guard sporting a Glock in a side holster and he said the Doug Robinson was expecting me.

Doug met me at the door and we talked for a few and then he disassembled the pistol on the spot and inspected the ruptured case.

I told him that based on talking last night to a very knowledgeable gunsmith (Hammerslagger) that we think possibly that it was a failure in the brass.

He concurred after exmining the barrel.

He told me that they would be happy to repair the gun for free.

I expressed concern about the .45 GAP cartridge and asked if there was any chance of Glock replaceing this model # 37 with a model .21 in .45 ACP.

He check with his boss and said no problem at all. To come back in an hour so they could do the transfer and look more closely at the gun.

He had talked to the rep at ATK earlier and they requested the ruptured cast and unspent ammo.

I told him no problem.

So after a nice Thai lunch of curry I returned to pick up my new gun.

To my surprise Doug told me that they only had one model 21SF on the shelf and it happened to be with night sights and 3 - 13 rd magazines.

Needless to say I was pleased.

He said they were sending the ammo to ATK and sending them a bill for the pistol which ATK had already agreed to it seems.

I have to say that they were very professional and eager to please me.

Props to Glock for their excellent customer service and to Doug Robinson who has been with Glock for 20 years now.

Cant wait to shoot it!!!!

Thanks to you all for your comments and suggestions.

Hammerslagger you rock. Look forward to speaking with you and thanks for taking a personal intrest and giving your time an knowledge to a stranger.

Greg

[ArnoldsPupil]

Oh and I forgot to say that after examining the barrel more closely that it had hairline cracks in it which Doug said that the cartridge had a double charge which was also indicated by Hammerslagger but we were unable to affirm until the barrel was examined.

Excellent insight even though he had not even examined it.

+ 1 for Hammerslagger

[glocknut]

I've been thinking...no WANTING to order a G20c now for a little while. If the DPMS rifles I'm sending to the gunshow this weekend sell i will put one on order.

mike
gn

[VegasTech702]

Glad to hear they at least treated you right, now sell the glock and buy and XD, you won't regret it.

[ArnoldsPupil]

Originally Posted by VegasTech702

Glad to hear they at least treated you right, now sell the glock and buy and XD, you won't regret it.

So why the XD over the Glock.
What is the diff?

[Suwannee Tim]

I'm looking at the photos of the cartridge and I don't see how it was double charged. The primer is not flat as would be expected with a high pressure load. A double charge would danged sure flatten, maybe even blow out the primer. This primer was not subjected to high pressure. ArnoldsPupil stated that the ruptured case was still in the chamber, very unlikely with an overcharge or double charge. The fact that the case was still in the chamber indicates that the rupture occurred before the powder completely burned and prevented the bullet from gaining momentum so the slide did not retract. Judging from the way the cartridge vented I think the gun was out of battery. This may explain why Glock was so eager to replace a gun they claim failed due to bad ammo. Because it wasn't the ammo.

Question for ArnoldsPupil: Was there a bullet stuck in the barrel? Did you check?

[Suwannee Tim]

Thinking further on this, I don't think Glock did you any big favor. This incident occurred because the gun was defective, and Glock knew it. I think they were jumping for joy as you left because they avoided a potentially expensive and embarrassing lawsuit. I think, unless you signed a release of liability you STILL have a case and you should take your photos to a PI lawyer. I think you ought to peruse it because you have been lied to by Glock.

[Hammerslagger]

Many years of working as GAJ (graduate apprentice journeyman), in the field of experimental engineering precision metalworking, for one of the worlds larger corporations, has caused me to open my mouth with more caution than my wallet. I open my wallet, and spend my money, very carefully.

However, I tend to speak plainly, from actual knowledge gained through formal education, experience, and diligent study (unless I state that I am inferring or guessing); and let others deal with my statements as they wish.

When I discover that I have made a significant mistake; I admit it, and correct it, if I can. Unlike at least one poster, here; I do not go back into my posts an erase my glaring posted mistakes through editing. I post again, say that I was wrong or mistaken, for everyone too read. This is how a person who is often wrong (such as myself) maintains some sense of credibility.

I have no financial ties to Glock or its products. I frequently opine that Glock's products are among the very best for their intended purposes, and an excellent value for your money.

I do not consider any manufacturer's product to be perfect. Complex machines must usually have certain design compromises. Glock's numerous high quality competitors are no exception; and the cheap product competitors are often unreliable.

From actual experience and knowledge, GLOCK USA's customer service comes as close to "perfect" as anyone will likely ever see, as is evidenced by their outstanding handling of this case, which was not their responsibility!

My experiences with and/or direct knowledge of S&W and Ruger, Kimber, and even little NAA have been excellent, also; but no better than Glock.

My experiences with one well known USA pistol maker who has been around less than 20 years have not been satisfactory. Apparently they are unfamiliar with the $24Million Jennings/Bryco lawsuit verdict. If a letter to its CEO does not get satisfaction, one is likely to read about it here in the future.

One final string of comments: I am not an attorney; but have been involved in several lawsuits and other legal actions. To have a basis for lawsuit you have to have actual damages! To win a lawsuit you have to prove (by your evidence) the damages; and prove that those being sued are in some way responsible for them!

There are no personal injuries that required any medical attention here. {Thanks, in part, to the design of the Glock pistol. The 1911 design often sprays the shooter's face with unburned powder and bass fragments, when a case blows out. I personally witnessed such happen about 6 weeks ago. ALWAYS WEAR EYE PROTECTION WHEN SHOOTING ANY FIREARM.}

The only significant damage was to the pistol. This second hand purchase, damaged pistol was replaced with a new different caliber model at the owners request. There never was and is no basis for any lawsuit against Glock; or the ammo maker at this time. All damages have been more than covered by Glock. Only, an uninformed person would opine otherwise, in this matter.

However, there is a cause for a lawsuit called "libel". Several examples of possible libel can be found in a recent post, here. One can usually say what one "thinks" in the USA without fear of a lawsuit. But, when one says things like "This incident occurred because the gun was defective, and Glock knew it." and "you have been lied to by Glock" you better be able to prove your claims in a courtroom! Good lawyers typically charge $150 to $1000 per hour for defending libel cases.

[glocknut]

Originally Posted by VegasTech702

Glad to hear they at least treated you right, now sell the glock and buy and XD, you won't regret it.

Oh get real.....

Originally Posted by ArnoldsPupil

So why the XD over the Glock.
What is the diff?

He's full of $#it....

mike
gn

[Suwannee Tim]

To put it in a nutshell, the Glock blew up because the firing pin hit the primer when the gun was 3/8 inch or so out of battery. It did not blow up because of bad ammo which is what Glock said. Glock lied at the expense of Speer. Regarding a libel lawsuit, the truth is an affirmative defense against libel, case dismissed.

Regarding my edits, I removed some inflammatory remarks directed at another forum member. I am antagonized by bs and I don't respond to it very well. I think I did the right thing in removing the remarks.

[SARG]

All I noticed was the price for the pistol changed from $400. in the original post to $500 in the email to Glock ..... gosh I love people.

[SARG]

Originally Posted by ArnoldsPupil

So we went to get some shooting practice yesterday afternoon, me my 15 and 18 year old sons and a friend.

Had not shot this new GLOCK model 37 .45 cal(new to me)
I bought it from a marine vet who had just returned from Iraq .

I fired 10 rds

My friend fired 10 rds

18 year old son fired 10 rds

Then it was Zecmans turn(15 years old)

He fired the first 5 rounds with this look of glee on his face with the power of a .45 in his hand, his first.

When the 6th round went off he lowered the pistol and said "OWWW"
Turned around and said "whats wrong dad"?

I went over to see what he was talking about and took the gun from his hand

His hand was covered in black gun powder residue.

The magazine was half way out and after looking closer I could see that the pressure button on the trigger was missing and the pin that holds the trigger together was protruding out the side aprox 1/8 of an inch.

I manually tried to push it back in and the trigger came apart and into two pieces in my hand.

We were all shocked and upon further examination we could see the magazine was splintered on the top left side.

The mag release button was sticking out 1/4 inch and on the opposite side was missing (blown out the right side).

The slide lock was just gone only a frayed sharp piece of metal was left.

The round that fell out when I cleared the gun was ruptured half way around at the bottom of the casing and the next round to be chambered has a gouge in the bullet.

A Veitnam Vetran whos range we were using was just as puzzled as I and neither of us had ever seen a cartrige ruptured like this or a gun blow up in this way.

It was as if the round had gone off half way into the chamber as the round underneath was damaged in the front.

Needless to say I thanked God it had not killed my son!!!!

His hand was a little swollen as hes a lefty and when this happened the mag release button blew out the side with such force I guess it impacted the heel of his left hand.

He was a little hesitent to fire the other gun(a kimber) after that.
It by the way performed like a "Kimber".

The bullets were Speer Gold Dot 230 gr. GAP.
No reloads.

What coud have caused this?
Will Glock repair this pistol for free?
Has this ever happened to anyone else before?
Will I buy another Glock?
Does my son have an angel looking out for him?

Cant stop thinking about it.

Glock is right up the road here in Metro Atlanta.
Should I bring it up there or write a letter to Glock?

Thankful to still have my son!!
Bummed Im out the $400 I paid for this gun and out a Glock.
I thought they were indestructable...lol

This is the first Glock I have owned.

Comments, suggestions?




So I got ahold of Glock this morning and was told they were not aware of ANY Glocks firing out of battery and if the primer was hit dead center then it was not out of battery.

He said it was an ammunition issue and to send him the pics and he would forward them to his man at Speer and go from there.

I will be required to send the gun and cartridges to him or Speer and it was up to the rep at Speer whether or not they would give me a replacement if I sent them my pistol.

He asked me if it was Blazer Brass?

I said it was 230 gr Speer no reloads.

What do you all think?





The rep from glock responded today indicating that he received my e mail and 12 pics so lets see where it goes from here.........

This is the e mail I sent...comments...god or bad this is in motion:

"Mr. Robinson,



My family and I went to get some shooting practice Saturday afternoon(7/25/09).

I had not shot this GLOCK model 37 .45 cal. Gun.





My 15 year old son fired the first 5 rounds with this look of glee on his face with the power of a GLOCK .45 in his hand, his first.

When the 6th round went off he hesitated lowered the pistol and said "OWWW"



Turned around and said "what’s wrong dad"?

I went over to see what he was talking about and took the gun from his hand

His left and right hands were covered in black gun powder residue.

The magazine was half way out and after looking closer I could see that the pressure button on the trigger was missing and the pin that holds the trigger together was protruding out the side aprox 1/8 of an inch.

I manually tried to push it back in and the trigger came apart and into two pieces in my hand.

We were all shocked and upon further examination we could see the magazine was splintered on the top left side.

The mag release button was sticking out 1/4 inch and on the opposite side was missing (blown out the right side).

The slide lock was just gone only a frayed sharp piece of metal was left.

The round that fell out when I cleared the gun was ruptured half way around at the bottom of the casing and the next round to be chambered has a gouge in the bullet.

A Vietnam Veteran who’s range we were using was just as puzzled as I and neither of us had ever seen a cartridge ruptured like this or a gun blow up in this way.

It was as if the round had gone off half way into the chamber as the round underneath was damaged in the front.

Needless to say I thanked God it had not killed my son or injured any one else!!!!

His hand was a little swollen as he’s a lefty and when this happened the mag release button blew out the side with such force I guess it impacted the heel of his left hand.


The cartridges were Speer 230 gr. GAP
No reloads.

What could have caused this?
Will Glock or Speer please replace this pistol for me?
Has this ever happened to anyone else before?

Thankful to still have my son!!
Bummed I’m out the $500+ I paid for this gun and out my Glock.


I thought they were indestructible..

This is the first Glock I have owned.

I would not want this to happen to anyone else and I know if it is a design flaw you would like to know about it. This could have caused serious injury to my son and others in the vicinity and as well to other Glock owners.

My thoughts……



"From the look of the casing, it ruptured while half out of the chamber, and the energy of the unsupported explosion was released down and back, which points the finger at an out of battery primer detonation.

My money would be on the firing pin protruding out prematurely and making fast and heavy contact with the primer while the round is still being ramped into the chamber."

Could also be an issue with the ammunition as I know this has been an issue before

The cartridges were factory Speer 230 gr. GAP as you can see from the pics.


Not reloads, I never use them

Please get back to me as soon as possible and let me know your progress. There is much interest in this case.


Thank You,

Greg Hindley"





Just got mail from Glock:

"Greg,



Yes, the photos you provided have been sent to our contact at ATK (Speer). They will usually want to look at the fired case as well.



For me, Thursday is not a good day as I will be out of the office both Thursday and Friday, however the very capable Warranty Supervisor will be here to assist you if you want.



I sent directions to Glock from Google.



I will be here tomorrow if you need to contact me.





Best regards,







Doug Robinson"









So I got a courtesy call from the rep at Glock said he was touching base since he hadnt heard from me.

Told him Id been busy but planned on coming by this mon or tues to show him the gun and ammo and ruptured case.

He asked me if I still had the box fromthe ammo and that he told the Speer guy I had it.

Never told him that!

In fact I told him I didnt have it but that I had bought all the .45 GAP at our local gun store when I bought the gun.

It was not old or reloaded or +p ect.

He said Speer did not make a 230 gr bullet.

I couldnt remember what is was but was heavy

Anyway he made a hmmmmm noice and said not having the box for the ammo might be a problem.....WTF.

I cant believe they are both su customer unfriendly and dont want to take responsibillity for this.

Guess they will say it was my sons fault the gun exploded and not the bullet or gun manaf. fault.

Im so ****ed how he was talking already that it was going to be a problem without any evidence yet.

Going by tues to give the gun andd ruptured case after I take a bunch more detailed pics.

Lets see what happens.

Dont know how else to get the word out.

I tried uploading phtos but got this:

Your submission could not be processed because a security token was missing or mismatched.

If this occurred unexpectedly, please inform the administrator and describe the action you performed before you received this error.

If you would like to see photos and can recieve large downloads e mail me and Ill send them
martialscience64@bellsouth.net

Frozen for posterity.

[ArnoldsPupil]

Originally Posted by SARG

All I noticed was the price for the pistol changed from $400. in the original post to $500 in the email to Glock ..... gosh I love people.

lol..... I had had a few that night and made a mistake. New the gun was in the $500's. I paid 400 for a used gun. Thanks for correcting my bleep.

I cant say why Glock did what they did but they did disassemble it in fromt of me and had already talked to ATK several times about this and also sent the pics so i assume(never do this) that ATK had agreed in some way according to the pics i sent that they were in some way to blame.

Im not a gunsmith nor claim to be but I have heard good things and bad things about Glocks over the years and tend to judge things MOSTLY on my own experiences with any product.
Hammerslagger is true saying that if its made it can have faults. It goes with ANYTHING manmade!

So my experience is:

Glock has great customer service as said by many people replying to the numerous thread Ive put out

Any ammo can malfunction

Things are not alwayswhat they seem

Any gun can have a flaw

Anything can perform well

I dont think there will be any lawsuit.

I will give Glock the benefit of the doubt based on their handeling of this.

They could have said no you did something wrong and made me attempt to prove it.

Alls I know is that I have learned much and will be keeping my new Glock and My son will be the first to shoot it. His wish.

Proud of him.

Any other comments?

[ArnoldsPupil]

Originally Posted by Suwannee Tim

I'm looking at the photos of the cartridge and I don't see how it was double charged. The primer is not flat as would be expected with a high pressure load. A double charge would danged sure flatten, maybe even blow out the primer. This primer was not subjected to high pressure. ArnoldsPupil stated that the ruptured case was still in the chamber, very unlikely with an overcharge or double charge. The fact that the case was still in the chamber indicates that the rupture occurred before the powder completely burned and prevented the bullet from gaining momentum so the slide did not retract. Judging from the way the cartridge vented I think the gun was out of battery. This may explain why Glock was so eager to replace a gun they claim failed due to bad ammo. Because it wasn't the ammo.

Question for ArnoldsPupil: Was there a bullet stuck in the barrel? Did you check?

ST there was nobullet left in the barrel

[Suwannee Tim]

Originally Posted by glocknut

Oh get real.....

He's full of $#it....

mike
gn

One of the reasons we love the Golcknut is because he's so subtle.

[ArnoldsPupil]

Speaks his mind...got to respect that....

[Kieran McCaig]

Tim ,should we not be calling Glocknut a BLASPHEMER instead of egging him on