GLOCK Model 37 .45cal EXPLODES in my 15 year olds hand

[Suwannee Tim]

Originally Posted by Kieran McCaig

Tim ,should we not be calling Glocknut a BLASPHEMER instead of egging him on

Calling him a blasphemer IS egging him on.

[Mosin_Nagant_Fan]

I saw an H&K split and the mag blown out because of an overloaded round. Usually, the only damage regular loads cause it towards the extractor, with rounds unsuited for most guns not made of steel. (plastic-polymer absorbs less vibrations then metal, I'm afraid)

Your case might be with overloaded or to-hot ammo.

[Helix_FR]

Hammerslagger and Suwannee Tim let me stir the pot a little. I'm not taking sides on this one b/c the expertise on this subject is beyond my capacity now but as a student of the trade I feel I need to ask questions.
Hammerslagger you had direct conversations with this guy so what we know is only posted here. My observation and question is this:
By looking at the photos of the spent brass, how is it possible for the brass to be peeled away like it is if the cartridge was in full battery. My only assumption is catastrophic failure of the breech which then he would have a barrel in 2 pieces. If it were the extraction process that peeled it then it would be peeled the opposite direction.
Is it possible with a over charged round that the brass may have failed during extraction (more charge longer burn time, milliseconds I know) and the pressure from the gases deformed the slide forcing the extractor to release. (He did state the casing was still in the breech?)

I've reloaded for years now. I've seen my share of head seperation, split cases, and flattened and blown primers but non of these resulted in peeled brass b/c they were fully chambered.
Enlighten me. I'm not looking for right or wrong, I'm basing this on theory.

[glocknut]

Originally Posted by Suwannee Tim

One of the reasons we love the Golcknut is because he's so subtle.

Originally Posted by ArnoldsPupil

Speaks his mind...got to respect that....

Originally Posted by Kieran McCaig

Tim ,should we not be calling Glocknut a BLASPHEMER instead of egging him on

Vegastech was spewing about XDs being so much better than Glocks. I had to respond to that....

mike
gn

[Suwannee Tim]

Originally Posted by glocknut

Vegastech was spewing about XDs being so much better than Glocks. I had to respond to that....

mike
gn

I'm with the Glocknut in this one. They are both marginal at best.

[Suwannee Tim]

Originally Posted by Helix_FR

..... I'm not taking sides on this one b/c the expertise on this subject is beyond my capacity now but as a student of the trade I feel I need to ask questions..............

I don't think it is beyond your capacity at all Helix. I think you see quite well what happened.

Originally Posted by Helix_FR

.......Suwannee Tim let me stir the pot a little............

Pot stirring is something I can help you with Helix, it is one of my specialties!

[glocknut]

Originally Posted by Suwannee Tim

I'm with the Glocknut in this one. They are both marginal at best.

Go shoot some lizards...

mike
gn

[Suwannee Tim]

Originally Posted by glocknut

Go shoot some lizards...

mike
gn

All gone. None left.

[Hammerslagger]

This is in response to the 04:31 PM post of Helix_FR. The observations that he makes, and the questions that he asks shows that he is a very observant, intelligent, and analytical man. From my interactions with him elsewhere on this forum he has considerable firearms knowledge and experience. He accurately describes himself "as a student of the trade" and demonstrates such, with his excellent questions.

He is correct that I have spoken with and advised ArnoldsPupil relative to this G37 incident. Also, I have spoken with several others who have a direct and indirect interest in this incident. At this point in time, I believe that almost everything that I actually know about this incident is out on this forum.

By my count this is my seventh and likely last public post on this matter. I have never said that I knew why this incident happened. There were several (more like numerous) possible causes. Some possible causes would not be the responsibility of Glock or the ammo maker, some would be Glock's, and some would be that of the ATK Inc. plant that actually loaded this Speer head-stamped round.

The simple short answer to Helix's very good questions is: I Do NOT KNOW; but many strange things can happen when a pressure vessel fails. I could recite many possibilities that do not include an unlikely "out of battery fire"; but time and space do not permit; and I do not want to "stir the pot" at all.

As there are no injuries of any kind at this time, there is no cause for any complaint. This is a private matter between Glock and ATK. I am not likely to ever actually lean more about this incident, and if I did I would not likely be free to talk about it .

When AP (who admits to little actual technical firearms knowledge) came to this forum for our help, I tried to help him. When I advised him in private, it was my goal to get his problem solved during his next day's meeting with Glock; and let Glock deal with ATK if it was ATK's problem. I tried to make sure that he would speak in a factual and knowledgeable manner. Apparently, he did.

[glocknut]

Originally Posted by Suwannee Tim

All gone. None left.

Oh yeah...well that sucks....
I ran out of squirls one time. I loved peggingt hoset bugger with hte bb gun!!!

mike
gn

[Suwannee Tim]

Originally Posted by Hammerslagger

Thanks for the pictures. Now we can begin to infer from actual evidence rather than just make blind educated guesses.

We still need detailed pictures of the barrel (removed from the slide) especially detailed full length sides and bottom shots, and a "tail on" breech shot. Several of the inside of the bore from front and rear would be nice but I do not have the time and space to explain how to take them to show what I want to see. Also need more pictures of the the failed case, especially the primer end of it.

From what I can see here, I will make some inferences that might change, be added to, or modified later, if I see more photos. This cartridge case appears to have failed in the unsupported region of the chamber in a manner typical of such failures. {I really need to see some good barrel and primer pics before opining much further!!!}

This type of failure is not common but happens in the many pistols that use this basic chamber design. I personally witnessed a similar one, involving a very rare 1911 Match Target pistol, within the last 6 weeks. The longitudinal spaces between the frame and slide acted as multiple miniature barrels directing fragments of cartridge brass into his face causing significant bleeding. Had he not been wearing safety glasses, he likely would have had severe eye damage. If your son was not wearing safety glasses, you can thank the Glock design for him still having his eyes. {ALWAYS WEAR SAFETY GLASSES WHEN SHOOTING ANY FIREARM !!! There are potential hazards that most experienced shooters, including myself, are totally unaware of.}

This type of failure can have several causes, including a defective cartridge case and/or an overpressure situation. From the limited photo evidence, here, I find it unlikely that this incident was caused by the cartridge firing before being fully chambered. If the cartridge case was defective a forensic analysis may prove so. It is unlikely that ammo loaded by CCI/Speer or Federal (owned by same parent company, and sometimes load and label each others products) could have had a double charge of power! If you are mistaken as to the ammo brand, other possibilities come into the equation.

Get us some more photos and we can advise in a more confident and knowledeable manner.

Best wishes

Hammerslagger, why don't you admit that you were wrong instead of your blah blah blah blah blah? The conclusion is obvious from two photos. The cartridge burst because the the gun was out of battery. You led AP to believe the failure was due to a defective cartridge. AP came here asking for help and got BS from you. Fortunately there was no harm done due to your BS. If this how you "help" people, I'd rather go it alone.

One last remark: You don’t have to subject this thing to neutron activation analysis, X ray fluorescence, electron microscopy, metalographic examination and a Ouija Board to figure out what happened. It is obvious from two photos.

One more last remark: If AP known before going to Glock that the gun was at fault he could have asked for something for his trouble and aggravation, say a case of ammo. I think he would have gotten it. Howz about you Hammerslagger just buy AP a case of ammo and we'll call it even.

Yet another one more last remark: Why do I reprimand Hammerslagger? It bears on the integrity of the site. Someone should be able to ask a question and get straight answers without having a web of BS spun in their face.

[Suwannee Tim]

Frozen for posterity.

Originally Posted by Hammerslagger

It would have been nice (better, more informative) if the ArnoldsPupil would have shared the photos with us. Also, I can not understand him not having the box that the alleged new factory ammo came out of, after an incident like this. His narrative accounts for 36 rounds fired (including the one that caused the damage) that leaves 14 left in a 50 round box. this whole narrative makes no sense, to me.

[Suwannee Tim]

Frozen for posterity.

Originally Posted by Hammerslagger

Sir:

I would like to be of assistance. I am in no way implying that you are knowingly being less than factual. There are numerous reasons as to "why" that which you describe could have happened. One of the most likely involves a use history of reloaded ammo with cast lead bullets, even though the incident happened shooting major manufacturer factory ammo, as you claim.

There are knowledgeable mechanical engineering types on this forum with extensive vocational firearms knowledge and experience. We need lots of close detail pictures of everything; especially the burst cartridge case; to be able to opine intelligently. Many of us (myself included) are reluctant to follow links to other places, from here, for fear of getting computer problems.

Please find a way to post your photos here.

[Suwannee Tim]

Frozen for posterity.

Originally Posted by Hammerslagger

Thanks for the pictures. Now we can begin to infer from actual evidence rather than just make blind educated guesses.

We still need detailed pictures of the barrel (removed from the slide) especially detailed full length sides and bottom shots, and a "tail on" breech shot. Several of the inside of the bore from front and rear would be nice but I do not have the time and space to explain how to take them to show what I want to see. Also need more pictures of the the failed case, especially the primer end of it.

From what I can see here, I will make some inferences that might change, be added to, or modified later, if I see more photos. This cartridge case appears to have failed in the unsupported region of the chamber in a manner typical of such failures. {I really need to see some good barrel and primer pics before opining much further!!!}

This type of failure is not common but happens in the many pistols that use this basic chamber design. I personally witnessed a similar one, involving a very rare 1911 Match Target pistol, within the last 6 weeks. The longitudinal spaces between the frame and slide acted as multiple miniature barrels directing fragments of cartridge brass into his face causing significant bleeding. Had he not been wearing safety glasses, he likely would have had severe eye damage. If your son was not wearing safety glasses, you can thank the Glock design for him still having his eyes. {ALWAYS WEAR SAFETY GLASSES WHEN SHOOTING ANY FIREARM !!! There are potential hazards that most experienced shooters, including myself, are totally unaware of.}

This type of failure can have several causes, including a defective cartridge case and/or an overpressure situation. From the limited photo evidence, here, I find it unlikely that this incident was caused by the cartridge firing before being fully chambered. If the cartridge case was defective a forensic analysis may prove so. It is unlikely that ammo loaded by CCI/Speer or Federal (owned by same parent company, and sometimes load and label each others products) could have had a double charge of power! If you are mistaken as to the ammo brand, other possibilities come into the equation.

Get us some more photos and we can advise in a more confident and knowledeable manner.

Best wishes

[Suwannee Tim]

Frozen for posterity.

Originally Posted by Hammerslagger

ArnoldsPupil;

Bear in mind that the pistol and brass are like and accident or crime scene. Do not do anything to clean anything up or try to make anything be easier to see! Such is regarded as evidence tampering. Such usually get discovered by a competent forensic tech.; and ones credibility goes down the Mr. Crapper's invention.

HS

[Suwannee Tim]

Frozen for posterity.

Originally Posted by Hammerslagger

A few general comments then I will get into specific advice.

"The only way to never have any defects is to make nothing" From my experiences in dealing with CCI/Speer, Federal, and Glock they are responsible and honorable businesses. From my experiences Glock's products are among the best of their type, and an excellent value for the money, but nowhere near the "Prefection" that Glock has advertised for many years. However, Glock USA customer is as close to "perfect" (from my experiences) as any company ever gets. Speer and Federal are respected US quality ammo makers. I use lots of their products.

I understand your reluctance to give up all of your evidence. However, as no one incurred any permanent injury; just a broken pistol that needs to be replaced; I do not see this as being any big deal.

Hold off on further dis-assembly of the pistol until we can talk in person. If you go the members list of this forum, you can find me under Hammerslagger and send me a private message or email. Please include your phone number so that I can call, talk with, and further advise you. The time has come to get this matter out of the public eye.

HS

[Suwannee Tim]

Frozen for posterity.

Originally Posted by Hammerslagger

Many years of working as GAJ (graduate apprentice journeyman), in the field of experimental engineering precision metalworking, for one of the worlds larger corporations, has caused me to open my mouth with more caution than my wallet. I open my wallet, and spend my money, very carefully.

However, I tend to speak plainly, from actual knowledge gained through formal education, experience, and diligent study (unless I state that I am inferring or guessing); and let others deal with my statements as they wish.

When I discover that I have made a significant mistake; I admit it, and correct it, if I can. Unlike at least one poster, here; I do not go back into my posts an erase my glaring posted mistakes through editing. I post again, say that I was wrong or mistaken, for everyone too read. This is how a person who is often wrong (such as myself) maintains some sense of credibility.

I have no financial ties to Glock or its products. I frequently opine that Glock's products are among the very best for their intended purposes, and an excellent value for your money.

I do not consider any manufacturer's product to be perfect. Complex machines must usually have certain design compromises. Glock's numerous high quality competitors are no exception; and the cheap product competitors are often unreliable.

From actual experience and knowledge, GLOCK USA's customer service comes as close to "perfect" as anyone will likely ever see, as is evidenced by their outstanding handling of this case, which was not their responsibility!

My experiences with and/or direct knowledge of S&W and Ruger, Kimber, and even little NAA have been excellent, also; but no better than Glock.

My experiences with one well known USA pistol maker who has been around less than 20 years have not been satisfactory. Apparently they are unfamiliar with the $24Million Jennings/Bryco lawsuit verdict. If a letter to its CEO does not get satisfaction, one is likely to read about it here in the future.

One final string of comments: I am not an attorney; but have been involved in several lawsuits and other legal actions. To have a basis for lawsuit you have to have actual damages! To win a lawsuit you have to prove (by your evidence) the damages; and prove that those being sued are in some way responsible for them!

There are no personal injuries that required any medical attention here. {Thanks, in part, to the design of the Glock pistol. The 1911 design often sprays the shooter's face with unburned powder and bass fragments, when a case blows out. I personally witnessed such happen about 6 weeks ago. ALWAYS WEAR EYE PROTECTION WHEN SHOOTING ANY FIREARM.}

The only significant damage was to the pistol. This second hand purchase, damaged pistol was replaced with a new different caliber model at the owners request. There never was and is no basis for any lawsuit against Glock; or the ammo maker at this time. All damages have been more than covered by Glock. Only, an uninformed person would opine otherwise, in this matter.

However, there is a cause for a lawsuit called "libel". Several examples of possible libel can be found in a recent post, here. One can usually say what one "thinks" in the USA without fear of a lawsuit. But, when one says things like "This incident occurred because the gun was defective, and Glock knew it." and "you have been lied to by Glock" you better be able to prove your claims in a courtroom! Good lawyers typically charge $150 to $1000 per hour for defending libel cases.

[ArnoldsPupil]

Whats the advantage of the Lonewolf Bar for my glock.

[Suwannee Tim]

This thing has gotten so polluted and off track Arnolds, maybe you would be better off starting a new thread.

[VegasTech702]

Originally Posted by glocknut

Oh get real.....



He's full of $#it....

mike
gn

Hey GLOCK, wake up and smell the XD, no one wants you outdated unsported chamber tupperware. Get with the times man.

Why pay the same amount for the Glockcrap when I can get all the best features with no of the bad in an XD?

-Ambi mag release
-FULLY SUPPORTED CHAMBER AND FEED RAMP! (this post is proof of why that is better)
-Nickel plated metal magazines, not plastic
-Better grip angle for ergonomics
-a triggerguard you can actually fit your finger in
-Fully machined slide
-LIFETIME WARRANTY IN WRITING!
-all xds have a tac rail
-grip safety to prevent out of battery events, will not let slide comeback if not engaged such as when holstering

shall I go on?

[Suwannee Tim]

Don't be mean to the Glocknut Vegas, he's had a hard week. Blown up Glock, Tasered and ignited, all in one week.

[glocknut]

Originally Posted by VegasTech702

Hey GLOCK, wake up and smell the XD, no one wants you outdated unsported chamber tupperware. Get with the times man.

Why pay the same amount for the Glockcrap when I can get all the best features with no of the bad in an XD?

-Ambi mag release
-FULLY SUPPORTED CHAMBER AND FEED RAMP! (this post is proof of why that is better)
-Nickel plated metal magazines, not plastic
-Better grip angle for ergonomics
-a triggerguard you can actually fit your finger in
-Fully machined slide
-LIFETIME WARRANTY IN WRITING!
-all xds have a tac rail
-grip safety to prevent out of battery events, will not let slide comeback if not engaged such as when holstering

shall I go on?

Hey VEGASTECH702.....

You haven't been following my posts very well... I have been upfront about my dislike of Glocks 40s and 357sigs. I have said many times that i only like their 9mm, 45, and 10mm.

I own an XD45 and a XD40. Reliable and has a better mag catch. Hate the trigger though and its "borderline" homely...
I learned on Glocks and prefer the Glock trigger. There is nothing inferior about the Glock. You and others try to make it sound like they are worthless and i despise such whining and hatred towards glocks. It makes me think there is more to the story than you are telling us?
You don't like Glocks....FINE... but get off this trip that the 1911 folks usually harp on all the time. Sheesh.

mike
gn

Well, looks like i've made another friend...

[glocknut]

Originally Posted by Suwannee Tim

Don't be mean to the Glocknut Vegas, he's had a hard week. Blown up Glock, Tasered and ignited, all in one week.

WTF? Tim...are you on medication or something??

mike
gn

[Suwannee Tim]

Originally Posted by glocknut

WTF? Tim...are you on medication or something??

mike
gn

What are you kidding? Of course I'm on medication. Isn't everyone? It's when I'm OFF my meds that I get weird.

[cycloneman]

Had an IMI baby eagle go poof in my hand once. it was a .40. sent it back and they fixed it. never found out what the problem was. I still like the IMI's.

that kind of stuff just happens from time to time even with factory ammo.

allways wear your eye protection