How to determine wheter or not to use p+ ammunition - The Firearms Forum

ski9393 · 08-19-2009, 08:39 AM

I own an armscor revolver in .38 special and I think that I want to start using P+ ammo in it as a sidearm during the muzzleloader season for the possibility of 'yotes and other potentially dangerous critters. The conundrum is, I don't know if this pistol is designed to fire the P+ ammunition or not. Anyone know much about P+ ammo and how to determine wheter or not a firearm is "ok" with it? Thanks for all the help from TFF members.

Alpo · 08-19-2009, 09:12 AM

I would get in touch with Centerifire Systems (who is an Armscorp importer) and ask them. http://www.centerfiresystems.com/contact-us.aspx

On a side note. You're allowed to carry a fixed ammunition gun during muzzle-loading season, in Virginia? In Florida that's a no-no.

ski9393 · 08-20-2009, 12:03 AM

About your side note, I'm not sure if that's legal or not myself come to think of it. I'll be sure to find out before the season. My logic is, if you can open carry a firearm without any permit for protection, then that means you can strap a revolver to your leg when you go out muzzleloader hunting to protect yourself from the big mean critters out there. Thanks for the link.

Alpo · 08-20-2009, 09:08 AM

Down here, rabbits are in season year 'round. My thought was if I was carrying a 50 caliber cap-n-ball for deer, I should also be able to carry a 22 revolver for rabbits. They explained to me, "NO". No fixed cartridge during muzzle loading season.

That was on a Wildlife Management Area, so that may have been a management area rule, and not a state game law.

carver · 08-20-2009, 01:41 PM

My advice is to carry +P's for SD, but shoot standard .38 loads for practice, 'yotes and other potentially dangerous critters.

ski9393 · 08-20-2009, 08:21 PM

Thanks to everyone for the input. According to centerfire systems my pistol is not rated for P+ ammunition. I don't know if they said that to avoid legal ramification or if it really won't handle it. I'm no gambler so I'll just carry some good Hornady .38s. Also, I figured that being in Virginia, we are allowed to carry un-concealed without a permit legally, that I could carry my Hawken to hunt and my pistol for SD. Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries dosen't agree with me. They have the badges so I guess I'll just leave the pistol in my truck. Thanks again to everyone for their input.

JohnnyLoco · 08-20-2009, 09:39 PM

I would only shoot +P in older S&W's because they will handle it.

CampingJosh · 08-20-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpo

Down here, rabbits are in season year 'round. My thought was if I was carrying a 50 caliber cap-n-ball for deer, I should also be able to carry a 22 revolver for rabbits. They explained to me, "NO". No fixed cartridge during muzzle loading season.

That was on a Wildlife Management Area, so that may have been a management area rule, and not a state game law.

In Indiana, the law allows anyone with a license to carry a handgun to carry any handgun while hunting, even during muzzle loading or archery seasons.

And Alpo: you should carry a black-powder revolver for those rabbits.

Alpo · 08-20-2009, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco

I would only shoot +P in older S&W's because they will handle it.

You wanna re-think that statement? The J frames, before around the mid-80s, would not handle +P. The K frames from the 50s and earlier aren't really safe with +P. You sure you didn't mean "newer S&Ws"?

ski9393 · 08-21-2009, 08:20 AM

Okay. Maybe I should ask what sort of pressures and velocity a P+ round makes versus a .38 special cartridge. Although I have already decided that I'm not going to carry it during the muzzle loader season. Have to rely on my first shot, my wits and my Ka-bar for defense against those mean critters.

carver · 08-21-2009, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpo

You wanna re-think that statement? The J frames, before around the mid-80s, would not handle +P. The K frames from the 50s and earlier aren't really safe with +P. You sure you didn't mean "newer S&Ws"?

This is true! Both Colt, and S&W made it plain when they told the public that the warenty on the guns they sold would be void, if these guns were used to shoot +P ammo. They made it clear that their guns were not designed to handle +P ammo. During this controversy, Charter stepped up and told it's coustomers: Shoot all the +P you want, we will stand behind our products.

Alpo · 08-21-2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ski9393

Okay. Maybe I should ask what sort of pressures and velocity a P+ round makes versus a .38 special cartridge. Although I have already decided that I'm not going to carry it during the muzzle loader season. Have to rely on my first shot, my wits and my Ka-bar for defense against those mean critters.

Quickly scanning a nearby loading manual

, I see that normal 38 special loads run in the 15000 to low 16000s psi, while the +P loads run in the high 17000s to mid 18000s. 2000 psi doesnt' sound like a lot, but when you figure that's 1/8 of the 16000, that's a 12.5% increase. Now it sounds like a lot.

Or, if you prefer, a 12.5% overload (which is what a +P load actually is).

roaddog28 · 08-21-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ski9393

Thanks to everyone for the input. According to centerfire systems my pistol is not rated for P+ ammunition. I don't know if they said that to avoid legal ramification or if it really won't handle it. I'm no gambler so I'll just carry some good Hornady .38s. Also, I figured that being in Virginia, we are allowed to carry un-concealed without a permit legally, that I could carry my Hawken to hunt and my pistol for SD. Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries dosen't agree with me. They have the badges so I guess I'll just leave the pistol in my truck. Thanks again to everyone for their input.

I feel when in doubt it is better to use standard pressure .38s. Smith and Wesson states: Do not use +P ammunition on any revolver older than 1957. I think you will find that older colts are in the class as Smiths. Here is a suggestion: For self defense: Buffalo Bore 38s 158g lead semiwadcutter hollow point. This is a excellent standard pressure round. Much like the +P round. Another excellent round is Federal Premium Defense 38s 125g nyclad hollow point. Very good round. I have used it in my Smith and Wesson combat masterpiece 38s made in 1951. For practice use 158g American Eagle round nose ammo. Very good practice round. Another practice round that is good is Magtech 158g round nose ammo.

Hope this helps,
roaddog

45nut · 08-21-2009, 11:18 AM

If you have a CHL, you should be able to carry concealed in the woods while hunting. I know you can in Texas, but then we can shoot people fleeing with our stuff too.

Mosin_Nagant_Fan · 08-21-2009, 03:19 PM

I use P+ ammo in my Sig P6 and use "higher then standard pressure" ammo in my S&W 10-5.

ski9393 · 08-21-2009, 08:09 PM

45nut, the Va department of game and inland fisheries said that I could carry it with me if I have a concealed carry permit. We do pretty good for our gun owners up here in Virginia too. I really hope we follow Texas and gain soverienty and adopt the Castle doctrine aswell.
And to everyone else, I'm glad to hear about your Colt's and S&W's, but what about my crumby little Armscor and the P+ ammo? I don't think that I want to test it because I can't remember buying something (including this weapon) that said "made in the Philipenes" and thinking "well this is the last one of these I'll ever have to buy". Especially after Alpo stated that it is approximately 2000Psi overload. Anyway, thanks to everyone again.

38 special · 08-27-2009, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ski9393

I own an armscor revolver in .38 special and I think that I want to start using P+ ammo in it as a sidearm during the muzzleloader season for the possibility of 'yotes and other potentially dangerous critters. The conundrum is, I don't know if this pistol is designed to fire the P+ ammunition or not. Anyone know much about P+ ammo and how to determine wheter or not a firearm is "ok" with it? Thanks for all the help from TFF members.

The whole +P thing from a reloading stanpoint makes no sense to me at all. I have collected over the years a dozen or more relaoding manuals from 1950's to 2009.
For a given bullet and powder and primer, A certain number of grains of powder in 1 manual is a "+P "and in another manual it is a medium 38 special load and in another it is a hot "regular" 38 special load.
THe various manuals are all over the place with this +P thing.
AS far as factory loaded "+P" who knows what they are. maybe they are no different than a hot 38 load(non+P) in a speer manual or maybe they are way hot loads. I dont use factory ammo so I dont know what they are actually making.

08-19-2009, 08:39 AM	#1
ski9393 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Lynchburg,Va Posts: 116	How to determine wheter or not to use p+ ammunition I own an armscor revolver in .38 special and I think that I want to start using P+ ammo in it as a sidearm during the muzzleloader season for the possibility of 'yotes and other potentially dangerous critters. The conundrum is, I don't know if this pistol is designed to fire the P+ ammunition or not. Anyone know much about P+ ammo and how to determine wheter or not a firearm is "ok" with it? Thanks for all the help from TFF members. -->

08-19-2009, 09:12 AM	#2
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,772	Re: How to determine wheter or not to use p+ ammunition I would get in touch with Centerifire Systems (who is an Armscorp importer) and ask them. http://www.centerfiresystems.com/contact-us.aspx On a side note. You're allowed to carry a fixed ammunition gun during muzzle-loading season, in Virginia? In Florida that's a no-no. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

08-20-2009, 12:03 AM	#3
ski9393 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Lynchburg,Va Posts: 116	Re: How to determine wheter or not to use p+ ammunition About your side note, I'm not sure if that's legal or not myself come to think of it. I'll be sure to find out before the season. My logic is, if you can open carry a firearm without any permit for protection, then that means you can strap a revolver to your leg when you go out muzzleloader hunting to protect yourself from the big mean critters out there. Thanks for the link.

08-20-2009, 09:08 AM	#4
Alpo Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: NW Florida Posts: 8,772	Re: How to determine wheter or not to use p+ ammunition Down here, rabbits are in season year 'round. My thought was if I was carrying a 50 caliber cap-n-ball for deer, I should also be able to carry a 22 revolver for rabbits. They explained to me, "NO". No fixed cartridge during muzzle loading season. That was on a Wildlife Management Area, so that may have been a management area rule, and not a state game law. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and taste good with catsup - George of Lod, Year of Our Lord 297 I always take precautions. Beware the Evil Bullet Fairies.

08-20-2009, 01:41 PM	#5
carver TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of East Texas, just west of Shreveport, LA Contributor Posts: 11,550	Re: How to determine wheter or not to use p+ ammunition My advice is to carry +P's for SD, but shoot standard .38 loads for practice, 'yotes and other potentially dangerous critters. __________________ Y'all be safe now, ya hear! Lamentations Chapter 5: 1. Remember, O LORD, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. 2. Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens. 3. We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers [are] as widows. 5. Our necks [are] under persecution: we labour, [and] have no rest. 16. The crown is fallen [from] our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned! 21. Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

08-20-2009, 08:21 PM	#6
ski9393 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Lynchburg,Va Posts: 116	Re: How to determine wheter or not to use p+ ammunition Thanks to everyone for the input. According to centerfire systems my pistol is not rated for P+ ammunition. I don't know if they said that to avoid legal ramification or if it really won't handle it. I'm no gambler so I'll just carry some good Hornady .38s. Also, I figured that being in Virginia, we are allowed to carry un-concealed without a permit legally, that I could carry my Hawken to hunt and my pistol for SD. Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries dosen't agree with me. They have the badges so I guess I'll just leave the pistol in my truck. Thanks again to everyone for their input.

08-20-2009, 09:39 PM	#7
JohnnyLoco Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 42	Re: How to determine wheter or not to use p+ ammunition I would only shoot +P in older S&W's because they will handle it.

08-21-2009, 08:20 AM	#10
ski9393 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Lynchburg,Va Posts: 116	Re: How to determine wheter or not to use p+ ammunition Okay. Maybe I should ask what sort of pressures and velocity a P+ round makes versus a .38 special cartridge. Although I have already decided that I'm not going to carry it during the muzzle loader season. Have to rely on my first shot, my wits and my Ka-bar for defense against those mean critters.

08-21-2009, 11:18 AM	#14
45nut Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,433	Re: How to determine wheter or not to use p+ ammunition If you have a CHL, you should be able to carry concealed in the woods while hunting. I know you can in Texas, but then we can shoot people fleeing with our stuff too. __________________ A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that. Shane Nemo me impune lacesset We recall the case of the Shoshone war band which showed up complete with one 30-30 rifle per man the week after Pearl Harbor, and simply wanted to have the enemy pointed out to them. "We hear there's a war going on and we want to go fight it." Jeff Cooper *KCCO*

08-21-2009, 03:19 PM	#15
Mosin_Nagant_Fan Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montgomery, AL Posts: 1,833	Re: How to determine wheter or not to use p+ ammunition I use P+ ammo in my Sig P6 and use "higher then standard pressure" ammo in my S&W 10-5.

08-21-2009, 08:09 PM	#16
ski9393 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Lynchburg,Va Posts: 116	Re: How to determine wheter or not to use p+ ammunition 45nut, the Va department of game and inland fisheries said that I could carry it with me if I have a concealed carry permit. We do pretty good for our gun owners up here in Virginia too. I really hope we follow Texas and gain soverienty and adopt the Castle doctrine aswell. And to everyone else, I'm glad to hear about your Colt's and S&W's, but what about my crumby little Armscor and the P+ ammo? I don't think that I want to test it because I can't remember buying something (including this weapon) that said "made in the Philipenes" and thinking "well this is the last one of these I'll ever have to buy". Especially after Alpo stated that it is approximately 2000Psi overload. Anyway, thanks to everyone again.