Two balls are better than one. - The Firearms Forum

TranterUK · 08-20-2009, 11:56 AM

One for any history or black powder buffs. I have been reading about the British General Wolf and his attack against French outside Quebec in 1759.

Apparently he ordered his men to load with two balls, rather than one. delivering devastating volley fire. This helped lead to victory over the French, who heavily outnumbered them, at 9000 to 14,000.

There is I think an American angle here. Gen. Wolf was killed leading a charge in the battle. Had he not been, his new ideas for open order, fast moving guerilla type action by the troops may have caught on more quickly. Soon enough perhaps to effect the American war of independence?

LurpyGeek · 08-20-2009, 02:19 PM

Quite interesting, Tranter.

When you consider the... shall we say "varied" accuracy of non-rifled muskets, the number of balls in a full volley like that would be like a massive shotgun blast. Doubling that number would just make it that much more devastating.

red14 · 08-20-2009, 03:47 PM

""One for any history or black powder buffs. I have been reading about the British General Wolf and his attack against French outside Quebec in 1759.

Apparently he ordered his men to load with two balls, rather than one. delivering devastating volley fire. This helped lead to victory over the French, who heavily outnumbered them, at 9000 to 14,000.""

Interesting, does that make it the first use of 'grapeshot'?

TranterUK · 08-20-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red14

Interesting, does that make it the first use of 'grapeshot'?

No, but possibly the first use of a multiple projectile out of a hand weapon (not including shot guns). I believe grape was used by artillery both on land and sea before this.

17thfabn · 08-20-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TranterUK

No, but possibly the first use of a multiple projectile out of a hand weapon (not including shot guns). I believe grape was used by artillery both on land and sea before this.

When did "buck and ball" come into use?

delta13soultaker · 08-20-2009, 08:50 PM

US Civil War

Correction:

As early as the US Revolution.

General Washington ordered 4-8 buckshot to be loaded over a ball in the first volley in a battle in 1777. I'd assume it was not a new concept.

GENERAL ORDERS
Head Quarters, Perkiomy, October 6, 1777.

Parole Fredericksburg. Countersigns Fairfax, Frankfort.

The commanding officers of regiments are without delay to send to the provost for such of their men as have been tried and their sentences published.

The Battalion of militia from Virginia, commanded by Col Rumney,52 are to be attended to and do duty with General Scott's brigade.

[Note:Col. William Rumney, of the Virginia Militia. ]

Brigadier Genl. Pulaski will make a return of the horse as soon as possible.

Thomas Mullen Esqr. appointed the 3rd. instant to act as Brigade Major to Genl. Conway, is now, for his gallant behaviour on the 4th. instant, appointed Brigade Major to General Conway, and is to be respected and obeyed as such.

John Laurens Esqr. appointed on the 6th. of September extra Aid de Camp to the Commander in Chief, is now appointed Aid de Camp to him, and is to be respected and obeyed as such.

The commanding officers of corps are every morning to report the strength of them to their Brigadiers or officers commanding brigades, that it may be known daily what stragglers have joined.

Buckshot are to be put into all the cartridges which shall hereafter be made.

Correction #2:

Re=reading Tranter's post, I'm thinking buck-n-ball went back even further.

I got to thinking too, that since our Continental Army was trained by the French (Jean-Baptiste Donatien de Vimeur) and Prussian' s (Baron Von Steuben), and not to mention many of the militia and regulars were English, the concept could have came from anywhere in Europe.

08-20-2009, 11:56 AM	#1
TranterUK Advanced Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 5,103	Two balls are better than one. One for any history or black powder buffs. I have been reading about the British General Wolf and his attack against French outside Quebec in 1759. Apparently he ordered his men to load with two balls, rather than one. delivering devastating volley fire. This helped lead to victory over the French, who heavily outnumbered them, at 9000 to 14,000. There is I think an American angle here. Gen. Wolf was killed leading a charge in the battle. Had he not been, his new ideas for open order, fast moving guerilla type action by the troops may have caught on more quickly. Soon enough perhaps to effect the American war of independence? __________________ DVC - Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas - Accuracy, Power, Speed. The light at the end of the recession tunnel IS a train coming the other way! -->

08-20-2009, 03:47 PM	#3
red14 Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: N FLA Posts: 3,913	Re: Two balls are better than one. ""One for any history or black powder buffs. I have been reading about the British General Wolf and his attack against French outside Quebec in 1759. Apparently he ordered his men to load with two balls, rather than one. delivering devastating volley fire. This helped lead to victory over the French, who heavily outnumbered them, at 9000 to 14,000."" Interesting, does that make it the first use of 'grapeshot'?

08-20-2009, 08:50 PM	#6
delta13soultaker Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Depends on Uncle Sam's whim every 3 yrs. Posts: 2,948	Re: Two balls are better than one. US Civil War Correction: As early as the US Revolution. General Washington ordered 4-8 buckshot to be loaded over a ball in the first volley in a battle in 1777. I'd assume it was not a new concept. GENERAL ORDERS Head Quarters, Perkiomy, October 6, 1777. Parole Fredericksburg. Countersigns Fairfax, Frankfort. The commanding officers of regiments are without delay to send to the provost for such of their men as have been tried and their sentences published. The Battalion of militia from Virginia, commanded by Col Rumney,52 are to be attended to and do duty with General Scott's brigade. [Note:Col. William Rumney, of the Virginia Militia. ] Brigadier Genl. Pulaski will make a return of the horse as soon as possible. Thomas Mullen Esqr. appointed the 3rd. instant to act as Brigade Major to Genl. Conway, is now, for his gallant behaviour on the 4th. instant, appointed Brigade Major to General Conway, and is to be respected and obeyed as such. John Laurens Esqr. appointed on the 6th. of September extra Aid de Camp to the Commander in Chief, is now appointed Aid de Camp to him, and is to be respected and obeyed as such. The commanding officers of corps are every morning to report the strength of them to their Brigadiers or officers commanding brigades, that it may be known daily what stragglers have joined. Buckshot are to be put into all the cartridges which shall hereafter be made. Correction #2: Re=reading Tranter's post, I'm thinking buck-n-ball went back even further. I got to thinking too, that since our Continental Army was trained by the French (Jean-Baptiste Donatien de Vimeur) and Prussian' s (Baron Von Steuben), and not to mention many of the militia and regulars were English, the concept could have came from anywhere in Europe. __________________ Never say die! "A nation who forgets its defenders is soon forgotten itself." "A good shot must necessarily be a good man since the essence of good marksmanship is self-control and self-control is the essential quality of a good man." – Theodore Roosevelt Last edited by delta13soultaker; 08-20-2009 at 11:49 PM..

08-20-2009, 02:19 PM	#2
LurpyGeek Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UT Posts: 1,436	Re: Two balls are better than one. Quite interesting, Tranter. When you consider the... shall we say "varied" accuracy of non-rifled muskets, the number of balls in a full volley like that would be like a massive shotgun blast. Doubling that number would just make it that much more devastating. __________________ Knowing is half the battle... Of course, the other half is violence.