Extremely light loads for 38 Special revolver ?

[LDBennett]

My son-in-law wants to start his 8 year old daughter (my cute grand daughter!) on a 38 Spl revolver. She already shoots a Ruger Single Six (22LR) and a Cricket 22 rifle. He wants me to load up some really light recoiling loads for his 38 Spl S&W revolver. I have some 150 grain bullets to donate to the cause but I am not sure how light I can get the powder load without the fear of sticking a bullet in the barrel. The lightest published loads for 38 Spl. I have see are about 750 FPS for this 150 grain bullet. I see loads for the much older 38 cartridges that get velocities down in the sub 600 FPS with those older cartridges.

Can I safely load down to those older lighter loads in a 38 Spl. gun and not stick a bullet? Anyone tried this?

LDBennett

[TranterUK]

I would advise against going lighter than the lightest recommended loads. On one occasion when I did, the bullet failed to penetrate the rubber sheets in front of the steel baffles on the range, came right back and hit a wood post to my side. Wasn't going to kill anyone, but could have taken out an eye!

[carver]

I reload wad cutters that are loaded to the minimum. They are shot in an old Police Positive, and do not have much recoil. My grandkids handle them well, and are about the same age as yours. They still have some felt recoil in the Off Duty, or 2" models.

[Alpo]

Load it using wadcutter specs, and seat the bullet flush, like a wadcutter. It'll look funky, but it will shoot.

Even better, is get some 38 S&W brass. Load it in 38 Special dies. It will then fit in your 38 Special gun. Load with 38 S&W data. You will be, essentially, making 38 Short Colt. You won't be able to crimp, but that might not be a problem. If it is, you can probably crimp them in a 9mm die.

Simplest solution, though, is to get some 148 wadcutter bullets, and just load some of them, instead of trying to make do with what you have.

[Alpo]

38 spl - 150 bullet - 2.7 bullseye - 665 fps
Lyman cast bullet handbook, c.1973

38 s&w - 150 bullet - 1.9 bullseye - 565 fps
same book

The above are the minimum loads listed for that bullet weight

[olehippy]

Eight struck me as a little small for a 38sp, but whatever.

My boys only shot 22 cal handguns until about age ten or eleven (twins, now 13 (gulp!!!)). We shoot 9mm and 40 cal, but like the above respondents I loaded wadcutters just a twitch above min charge, but I found too that reducing the amount of crip I used (like almost none, don’t drop the ammo box when upside down!) probably reduced the recoil more than powder charge.

BTW they’re still skinny rats, but now shooting standard, even +P loads without any fear (and damn accurately!)

Miles

[tim.sr]

load lite with wax not lead it works for my kids back in the day. the type you use in canning. have fun with it.

[Hammerslagger]

One is well advised NOT TO GO LOWER than then minimum load in a respected reloading manual, just as one is well advised to exceed the maximum load.

This is especially true when using double base propellants (those containing nitrocellouse fortified with nitroglyercine) of which several fast burning pistol and shotgun reloading propellants are typical.

There have been high quality medium frame .38 special revolver failures on the indoor PPC circuits involving significantly lighter than recommended loads in years past. The ammo involved was usually loaded well below the minimum recommended load in any respected manual, for use (and competitaive advantage) at the 7 yard line, only. Cylinders were often broken in halves and top straps badly bent or seperated. I am not sure as to any injuries.

Such damage was indicative of powder detonation as opposed to deflagration (burning). The foremost ballistics lab in the US has tried to determine the cause, by replicating conditions, but has been unable to do so. Other than being of academic interest, it really does not matter whether the abnormal pressure from chemical decomposition of the powder was caused by much faster than normal burning (that likely went supersonic) or a shockwave from from a grain of powder that detonated.

Several incidents have demonstrated that significantly lighter than recommended loads with some propellants have the potential for catastrophic failure.

Better safe; than sorry.

[LDBennett]

Hammerslagger:

See PM

Is a minimum 38 S&W load in a 38 Spl case a problem???? Is it necessary to use the smaller volume 38 S&W case to assure no detonation??? If I load to 38 S&W levels is that a problem in and of itself?

I understand the potential for a problem and that is why I am asking for experiences.

LDBennett

[Alpo]

LD, you have case volume to worry about.

Let's say, for argument (because I have no idea of the real measurements), that you have 3ccs of space in a 38 Special case, once you have the 150 grain bullet seated.

With a 38 S&W case, with the same 150 grain bullet seated, you only have 1.5ccs of space left. Obviously, with the same powder charge, you will get more pressure in the 38 S&W case, since there is less room for the expanding powder gases.

Now, your 38 special case length is 1.15 (1.155 max, trim to 1.149). 38 S&W case length is 1.18. That ain't right. How about case length .775 and max OAL 1.18. Damn, but it works better when you give people the right numbers. The load I gave with the 150 grain bullet was loaded to 1.162 OAL.

So, if you loaded the S&W charge in the Special case, and then seated the bullet to 1.162 OAL (which would be almost flush), you would have duplicated the S&W load in Special brass.

[LDBennett]

Alpo:

I had not considered pushing the bullet all the way into the case (or almost) to get the OAL the same as 38S&W using a 38 Spl case.... Interesting. But then I could not crimp and I don't know if I like that, especially with my young grand daughter shooting the gun (with her father standing beside her, of course).

I considered cutting down a small batch of cases (she would not shoot more than 50, I would think, in any one sitting) and loading it to 38S&W.

The listed Lyman load for 150 gr bullets (or 160 grain too) is 2.1 to 2.4 grains giving sub 600 FPS, but the bullets are lead for that load. What adjustment would be necessary for FMJ bullets (I have some that I intended to use)?

How about plated Rainer 158 gr bullets. I think they can be used interchangeably with lead bullets for a load without worry of sticking them in the barrel(???).

Thanks for the hint to seating the bullet into the case which lead to my considering just cutting some 38 Spl cases to 38S&W length. You are absolutely right that it is the case volume that is the most important consideration and shorting 38 Spl cases would solve the problem leaving only the FMJ question which could be solved with the plated Rainer bullets. I think this is the direction I'll go. Thank goodness for my RCBS motorized case trimmer. It should be easy to trim 50 cases to the correct length for 38 S&W! That case trimmer is awesome. I just trimmed 300 308 cases and it just hums right along, no problems, every case within a 1/2 thousandth of the last one.

LDBennett

[Alpo]

Whooo. That's 3/8" of cutting. I think I'd start with a tubing cutter to short 'em, first. Then go to the power trimmer.

You say you load many calibers. Do you do 9mm? 'Cause that would be the way to crimp, with a 9mm taper die. Might even could do it that way, and get a good enough crimp, without having to cut the brass down.

[JLA]

look up trailboss cowboy data from the hodgdon reloading data center. Thats probably the lightest modern loads you will find available... My boy is not quite 5 and he can shoot my S&W 625 .45 auto rim loaded with 255 gr. lfn at 550 fps no problem...

[Suwannee Tim]

I have made and shot thousands of very light loads, well below published minimums. Here are the hazards: do not use jacketed bullets. The core can separate from the jacket and fly out the barrel generating normal recoil and a bullet hole but leaving a stuck jacket. Use soft lead bullets, preferably swaged. Use the fastest double base powder available, I used Bullseye which burns reasonably well at low pressure. Pick a starting load and work down until you stick a bullet, this load is below your practical minimum, add to it about 20%. I used magnum primers which improve ignition. Tranter is right about the ricochet hazard, slow bullets will rebound off a hard surface like wood, shoot them into dirt. I have shot many loads that were so slow that you could see the bullet in flight. The hazard of a stuck bullet is serious, you must confirm the bullet left the barrel with every shot, either by observing the bullet in flight, observing a new bullet hole, observing recoil or examining the barrel for a stuck bullet. For that a wooden dowel is handy, you don't need to unload the gun, just open the cylinder and insert the dowel.

I didn't have a chronograph when I was doing this but I calculated velocity as low as 180 FPS from trajectory considerations and this from a load which I had added 20% to the powder charge.

One method of improving combustion and consistency is to seat the bullets much deeper than normal which reduces air volume. This works best with hollow base wad cutters as the base collapses as it enters the increasingly thick case.

I believe the detonation phenomenon for anything but slow extruded rifle powders is a myth. Nitrocellulose and double base powders will not detonate with anything less than a blasting cap to initiate and it will not be sustained unless the powder is tightly packed which is not the case with light loads. It is an inherent property of nitrocellulose to be resistant to detonation. This "detonation" phenomenon has never been explained scientifically and has never to my knowledge been duplicated in a lab except for slow single base rifle powders and then only occasionally.

[LDBennett]

I tried cutting a 38 Spl case down to 38S&W and it takes too long, even with the motorized RCBS lathe. I then tired to deep seat the bullets but had to make a special seating ram for my Lee seating die. When a 150 grain plated bullet is seated to 38S&W depth in a 38 Spl case, it is completely inside the 38Spl case by 0.005 inches or so. The fit is tight enough that it should not migrate out with recoil (?). The smallest charge of W231 that my Dillon powder measure will meter (small charge bar) is 2.2 grains and that turns out to be about right to fit the 2.1 to 2.4 grain charge limits for 38S&W. I am trying to use components and powders I have on hand as everything reloading related is so hard to get today.

The results look funny but no funnier than the ammo for the Nagant pistol my son-in-law shoots. It too puts the bullet below the end of the case. My S&W Model 52 ammo (38Spl Mid-level Target loads at 770 FPS for 148 gr wad cutter) also loads the bullet inside the case but just, with the end of the case rolled over the front end of the bullet.

I'll test the 10 rounds myself to assure the recoil is OK and that the bullets ALWAYS leave the barrel (at 600 FPS and standard 38S&W specs it should be no problem). I'll let you know the results. I may also try primers and wax, when I get a chance.

Thanks all for your inputs.

LDBennett

[Suwannee Tim]

I think you will find your load to be satisfactory with low risk of a bullet sticking. My only concern is the plated bullet which will not shed the jacket but will have more bore friction than lead. Loads I made were lighter, 1 grain of Bullseye typically. I loaded some ammo that had such a low velocity that you could fire them straight up, keep them in sight until they came back down and catch them in your hand. How many of you can say you have caught a bullet in flight after it has been fired from a pistol? Nobody but me! These were with 44s which are of course more visible than a 38 and were fired out of a Contender with an 8 inch barrel which has no cylinder barrel gap. I estimated the velocity of these to be 120 FPS.

[LDBennett]

OK, I shot the 38S&W load in 38 Special cases with the bullet seated to 38 S&W depth:
"a 150 grain plated bullet is seated to 38S&W depth in a 38 Spl case, it is completely inside the 38Spl case by 0.005 inches or so"

"Charge of W231 .... is 2.2 grains"

They shoot with light recoil (light enough for an 8 years old????). I'll load up 50 and see how see likes them.

Thank you all for guiding me through this unusual loading problem. I never would have considered seating the bullet to 38S&W depth inside the 38 Special case. It worked fine!

LDBennett

[JLA]

Originally Posted by Suwannee Tim

I think you will find your load to be satisfactory with low risk of a bullet sticking. My only concern is the plated bullet which will not shed the jacket but will have more bore friction than lead. Loads I made were lighter, 1 grain of Bullseye typically. I loaded some ammo that had such a low velocity that you could fire them straight up, keep them in sight until they came back down and catch them in your hand. How many of you can say you have caught a bullet in flight after it has been fired from a pistol? Nobody but me! These were with 44s which are of course more visible than a 38 and were fired out of a Contender with an 8 inch barrel which has no cylinder barrel gap. I estimated the velocity of these to be 120 FPS.

Thats the method i use for slugging pistol barrels. I load an oversized cast bullet into a case with 1 grain of green dot and cotton from a pill bottle. fire straight up and simply catch the bullet. the bigger ones sting a little but its a great way to get a perfect barrel slug...

[Popgunner]

A problem I can see is that the 38 spec. cases need the listed start loads to reliably seal the 38 spec. case mouths. If you cut the cases down you'll be getting back to where the brass is even thicker. You don't want your young lady to be catching any errant gasses. Fast powder loads like Bullseye listed as cowboy loads should be very light & safe.

Also, I think I have some 44 cal & 38 cal Speer re-useable plastic bullets for indoor use. If I can find 'em I'd send you some to try if you want.

[38 special]

[QUOTE=Suwannee Tim;497611]I think you will find your load to be satisfactory with low risk of a bullet sticking. My only concern is the plated bullet which will not shed the jacket but will have more bore friction than lead. Loads I made were lighter, 1 grain of Bullseye typically. I loaded some ammo that had such a low velocity that you could fire them straight up, keep them in sight until they came back down and catch them in your hand. How many of you can say you have caught a bullet in flight after it has been fired from a pistol? Nobody but me! These were with 44s which are of course more visible than a 38 and were fired out of a Contender with an 8 inch barrel which has no cylinder barrel gap. I estimated the velocity of these to be 120 FPS.[/QUOT

Neat!

[LDBennett]

Popgunner:

I did test the extremely deep seated bullets with the 38S&W load and saw no indication that the brass case did not seal the chamber (no powder marks or burns on the outside of the case walls of the fired cases).

In fact, this approach worked fine, is detonation safe (same internal capacity as a 38S&W case), and the recoil is only slightly greater than 22LR (as best as I can tell ??).

I started out to trim the 38 SPL cases to be 38S&W length but with nearly a 1/4 inch of case to remove I found it was not the best approach (It took way too long!). The fit of a bullet in the one case I did was not excessively tight so I suspect the case wall, to where I trimmed, was not yet too thick.

I think this a viable solution that may be used for other calibers and situations. I have a couple of factory Nagant pistol cartridges loaded that way with the bullet very deep seated, totally inside the case. The S&W Model 52 in 38 Special requires deep seated bullets flush with the end of the case (full wad cutters). In this case the gun is designed for only the one load level (770 FPS from a 148 gr wad cutter with a hollow base) and nothing else! It is designed to only feed that specific configuration (Specifically designed for 1960's Bullseye competition with no versatility for anything else).

If my grandaughter has trouble with this load level I'll have to come up with another solution (wax bullet or plastic bullet) but we'll let her try this first. She's an athletic type that will try anything and I don't think she'll have trouble with this lower level of recoil. She enjoys shooting and guns and keeps taking over my son-in-law's guns because they are "neat looking". My son-in-law didn't even get his GSG-5 (22LR rifle clone of H&K) home and she already claimed it as hers!

LDBennett

[Oneida Steve]

LD, I'd go the plastic bullet route. Speer .38 cases and bullets are my favorite.

I've used the Speer plastic bullets as training ammo for years. It work great for kids.

[GMFWoodchuck]

Originally Posted by Suwannee Tim

I think you will find your load to be satisfactory with low risk of a bullet sticking. My only concern is the plated bullet which will not shed the jacket but will have more bore friction than lead. Loads I made were lighter, 1 grain of Bullseye typically. I loaded some ammo that had such a low velocity that you could fire them straight up, keep them in sight until they came back down and catch them in your hand. How many of you can say you have caught a bullet in flight after it has been fired from a pistol? Nobody but me! These were with 44s which are of course more visible than a 38 and were fired out of a Contender with an 8 inch barrel which has no cylinder barrel gap. I estimated the velocity of these to be 120 FPS.

That's pretty cool. I might try that with my muzzleloader. I don't have a handgun.....