.22 a killer?

[pinecone70]

A local man was just sentenced to seven years in prison after pleading guilty to the unintentional shooting of his wife during an argument. Two .22 shots were fired, one to her head, the other to her knee, she died a short time later. It's all about shot placement, for sure.

[Czech]

In some 30 years as a law enforcement officer, I've seen more people shot and killed with a .22 cal then all the other calibres combined.

.22 will definitely do the job, provided the operator knows his/her stuff.

[johnlives4christ]

off subject. i think it'd be pretty sick to have a 22 gatling gun, or machine gun. that'd be a sweet toy

[GMFWoodchuck]

I wouldn't doubt that the 22lr has killed more deer than the 30-30.

[JRoberts]

Last week I wanted to check my zero on my Rem. 552 Speedmaster. I live in town but have a nice-sized back yard with a double-door garage. I set up a rest inside the garage and put up a piece of formica-topped 5/8" plywood against my gate, backed by another piece of 1/4" plywood, 50 ft. away. With Remington HV Shorts (really like the low report of shorts for squirrels), 29 gr, bullet @ 1050 fps, the bullets pentrated both pieces of plywood and lodged in the 2x4's of my gate!

Never underestimate a .22 rimfire's power. BTW, the Remingtons were scattered in a 2" group, but some CCI 27 gr. HV Short Hollow Points all went in less than 1/2".
JR

[swanshot]

Originally Posted by Hammerslagger

There is no question that a well placed 22 out of even a short barrel handgun can be deadly. However "deadly" is not the same as "disabling" or "incapacitating".

Many persons reading these threads are unwisely trusting their safety to a 22 RF when it is not necessary to do so.

Enlightening those who wish to learn is what I see a the useful purpose of this thread.

In the late 1980's a well known FBI report noted that perfect shot placement was difficult to obtain in in real life shooting incidents. That while a 22 was commonly used to kill hogs, if the shot placement was off by even a small amount, "the pig goes wild and the process of killing becomes rather lengthy and involved" according to this report.

The 22 LR 40 grain out of a rifle @1335 fps (or even 1250fps) is an excellent near perpendicular penetrator, especially at 25 yards when it has achieved gyroscopic stability. It often did better against early police body armor than the .357 or .44 Mag out of any revolver. However pistols are lucky to propel this bullet at 1100 fps and it usually impacts the target before it can "settle down" fully stabilized. This combined with light bullet weight and the difficulty of making perfect shots in a violent confrontation, likely accounts for 22's hitting a human rib or skull and "skidding", as opposed to "drilling" or punching through.

The hero (or foolish person) as one may wish to regard him in TranterUK's "Video of a very brave man" thread demonstrates that some men will take multiple center-fire hits and keep coming at you until they take a solid brain hit or their brain shuts down from loss of blood. These individuals are not common; but they do exist. One can never predict when one may encounter such a person.

Yes i take your point, and it is valid, but isn't that why we all learn to keep on shooting the basket till he's down? Now I wouldn't like to be shot with a 22, but I'm sure I would find being shot 5 or six times somewhat discouraging.

[Joe M]

I recovered this bullet hanging by a thread on the back side of my target leg brace
(2x2 pine) at 230 yards. It's a Winchester X22LRPP 40 grain HP;

I think it would be a bad day for anything hit by it.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l...M/100_0389.jpg
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l...M/100_0395.jpg

[pawn]

Last year, there was a double homicide in my county. Meth head female shot her own mother and stepfather at close range, both in the face.

Originally Posted by Czech

In some 30 years as a law enforcement officer, I've seen more people shot and killed with a .22 cal then all the other calibres combined.

.22 will definitely do the job, provided the operator knows his/her stuff.

[Keystone]

I used to be a pig breeder for about 4 years and I had to put down a lot of sick sows and boars. All I used was my .22lr, 6-shoot Pistol. One shot behind the ear, they were dead right on the spot. I hated doing that, but didn't seem right for them to suffer a long slow death.

[user]

Everything Hammerslagger said is correct. I'd add a couple of details.

1. Although it was implied in some of his comments, I'd add that a good knowledge of anatomy and physiology of the intended target are essential to proper shot placement. You've got to know what it does and where it is, in order to decide whether to shoot it. And if you decide to shoot it, be specific. Aim for the third button down on the shirt or the bridge of the glasses, for example (wild boars still wear button down shirts and glasses where you live, don't they?); even if you're not precise, you're more likely to hit within half an inch of the target if you're specific in aiming than if you're trying to get five shots out of a J frame into an 8" paper plate. Shooting "at the center of mass" and hoping for a "group" is unlikely to stop an attacker.

Buy a copy of Gray's Anatomy and study the pictures.

2. Also implied by his comment about the .22 being a relatively small and lightweight bullet, I'd point out that K = (M/2) * V squared. Kinetic energy is equal to the product of half of the mass times the square of velocity.

That means that a .22 bullet doesn't take much powder to get it moving really fast. So it has a good bit of kinetic energy (that without which there would be no penetration) simply because of the relatively huge velocity. On the other hand, lacking sufficient mass (hence, momentum, which is a different formula) the .22 will slow down really quickly when it hits something (even a leaf or twig) or travels over a long distance. And since K is lost at the rate of the square of velocity, all that wonderful kinetic energy is dissipated rapidly. Hence Hammerslagger's comment about the shot being "perpendicular" to the target. Anything other than a ninety degree angle is going to waste K by tearing through skin and surface tissue, and a jacket, if the boar's wearing one.

I routinely tell people that a .38 spc +P or 9mm will both have enough K at fifty yards to crush bone; they will therefore work well at defensive distances. Anything larger than that only adds flash, bang, and recoil, all of which screw up the second and subsequent shots.

With adequate shot placement, sufficient mass (I prefer bullets in the range of 124-125 grain as the optimum compromise), and good muzzle velocity, either the .38 or the 9mm will do just fine. You could kill your boar with a ball-point pen, theoretically, much less a .22; but I wouldn't carry either one for defensive purposes (I did break a guy's rib with a ball-point pen, once, though).

[user]

Addendum:

For concealed carry and defensive purposes, I'd point out that the Kahr PM9, a nine millimeter with a capacity of up to eight rounds (it comes with both a seven round magazine and a six round flush-fit magazine), is four tenths of an inch longer than the Beretta Bobcat .21LR, which has a maximum capacity of eight rounds as well.

And the PM9 has a barrel length that's more than half an inch longer (which means the bullet's being pushed longer, hence more velocity).

The PM9 is three tenths of an inch greater in height, and two tenths of an inch narrower. And it's double action only, no hammer or safety buggering up things.

Given those statistics, why would you want a .22?

[fedupdon]

wife x tried to pull a stunt with a 22 he went to a local collage and shot his self with a 22 hp the bullett bounced around in his body the me said he took a long time to die and that it was very painful ive killed many game animals and i will not shoot at lg game unless its a last option in short 22 will kill but they are not the best choice for most game

[Brian48]

Originally Posted by johnlives4christ

off subject. i think it'd be pretty sick to have a 22 gatling gun, or machine gun. that'd be a sweet toy

I guess this is as about as close as you can get to it. Not belt-fed though unfortunately.

[Brian48]

Here's a cool clip of it in action

http://www.tacticalinc.com/video/ruggat22video-1.mpg

[ninjatoth]

I had to end the suffering of our dying goat when I was a kid,my mom sent me out with a .22 rifle and said to shoot it in the back of the head pointing tword the nose,so I did as she said,and that goat was history instantly.

[Bill DeShivs]

Hammerslager- for the most part I agree with most of your posts, but:
Bullets don't have to travel any distance to achieve "gyroscopic stability." They are spinning as fast as they will ever spin when leaving the muzzle.

[user]

gyroscopic stability and spinning aren't the same thing. Spinning is a factor, but the distribution of mass within the bullet is another. So it takes time after the bullet leaves the muzzle to "find" its proper attitude. Sort of like the Earth is doing now, trying to deal with the extreme lump of mass we call the Himalayas. If we had any sense, we'd start blasting them down right now, because the wobble they cause is going to make the Earth flip like a dredle. Just a question of time.

[fprefect]

What doesn't make sense? A 32-40 gr. 22 LR bullet traveling at between 1100 and 1600fps, concentrating it's energy on a very small area will penetrate the skulls of most North American mammals at a relatively close range, resulting in an almost immediate kill.

That doesn't mean I'm taking a 22 rimfire on a wild boar hunt, but the 22 rimfire is no toy and can be lethal against most animals if the shot is well placed.

F. Prefect

[GregD]

Hello folks, new to the forum. I'm also retired LE which included over 30 years in detectives. Have investigated numerous homicides where a .22 rimfire was used. It was often difficult locating the bullet (s) during the autopsy and x-rays were used. I was also surprised where the entry holes were made and where the bullet (s) came to rest. Have had victims shot numerous times with 9mm and 45 acp and survived, others shot one time with a .22 short or a .25 acp and died. Placement on some of these were not the key factor, just bad luck ( but placement IS very important) .

I do like the .22 long rifle for survival and have several rifles chambered for this round and lots and lots of ammo. My favorite round is the Remington "Yellow Jacket" HP.

Just my two cents.

[woolleyworm]

Welcome to TFF, Greg. Your .02 is good around here; hope you'll enjoy it. Got a good thing here.

Oh, and my .02 on .22's - They're a must have caliber; cheap ammo and definetly can get the job done if need be. I won't rely on any .22 as a primary, but a back up to a back up works for me.
Dropped hogs and cows with a .22lr for years, then my uncle bought a 22 Hornet and we used that on the cows. Still used the .22lr behind the hogs ear, dropped them every single time.

[GregD]

Originally Posted by woolleyworm

Welcome to TFF, Greg. Your .02 is good around here; hope you'll enjoy it. Got a good thing here.

Oh, and my .02 on .22's - They're a must have caliber; cheap ammo and definetly can get the job done if need be. I won't rely on any .22 as a primary, but a back up to a back up works for me.
Dropped hogs and cows with a .22lr for years, then my uncle bought a 22 Hornet and we used that on the cows. Still used the .22lr behind the hogs ear, dropped them every single time.

Thanks for the welcome !

[Joe M]

Here is a link to the Ruger 10/22 Israeli Military usage. It might add a bit to the discussion here? If nothing else it is an interesting read.

http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm

[Mark McIntosh]

What about unloading a full mag of 15 rounds from, say, a remington 550 in about 3 or 4 seconds into the mid section of a bad guy? Stop'em ?

[RJay]

I think we have just about beat this subject to death

[Mark McIntosh]

Sorry RJ. Didn't mean to crash the party!