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TheFirearmsForum.com
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04-29-2003, 11:47 PM
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#1 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Vermont
Posts: 891
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Trading Freedom For Security...
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety, observed Benjamin Franklin, "deserve neither liberty nor safety". The harsh verdict of history sustains the bitter truth of Dr. Franklin's observation. Those who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety end up trading freedom for security. The present moment calls for sober reflection on that grim warning. Are we giving up essential liberties in the war on terror for the promise of safety ? In the name of security are we concentrating and institutionalizing power in such ways that we are inviting terror far beyond what any terrorist group could ever hope to inflict on us ? Recall that throughout history and particularly in the past century, governments have been by far the primary and most lethal instruments of terror. Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, and their fellow dictators have proven the most efficient terrorists. Wielding unbridled power, they have turned the state into an instrument of terror, death, and destruction. In our stampede to safety after the 9-11 attacks, have we been rushing headlong into a deadly trap ? We have already allowed an incredible and unprecedented concentration of power, threatening to destroy all constitutional protections. The new Department of Homeland Security and the USA Patriot Act represent an enormous restructuring and centralizing of power. These radical innovations' full impact has not even begun to be told. Yet each day brings word of new proposals calling for the federal government to usurp more power, and for the states and the people to surrender more of their rights, freedoms, and reponsibilities. Projecting the lines of trajectory from current trends, we could soon be living in an ORWELLIAN POLICE STATE. THE #1 ISSUE FACING US TODAY IS GOVERNMENT TERRORISM . Real talk radio : www.gcnlive.com www.infowars.com www.thepowerhour.com www.gulfwarvets.com |
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04-30-2003, 07:31 AM
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#2 |
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*TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor*
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: At SouthernMoss' side forever!
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Franklin's words have never been more apropos than today. I have used that statement as one of the bases for my philosophy while on the bench for thirty+ years.
This is another stark example of the fantastic insight the founders had. Many say their thoughts and dreams were only applicable to colonial times. However, it is very seldom these days that we find persons with such precise insight. Whoa to us for our abridged insight and the resultant consequences if nothing is done and we stand by thinking its a job for someone else.  You hit the nail on the head, Shiz - - "THE #1 ISSUE FACING US TODAY IS GOVERNMENT TERRORISM." If we don't guard against it now, it will be worse than the proverbial shutting of the barn door AFTER the horse is gone.
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   The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. The only criminal class native to the United States is Congress. |
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04-30-2003, 07:36 AM
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#3 |
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Advanced Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Paint Rock Valley, Alabama
Posts: 3,147
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We shall never accept peace at the cost of 'the loss of freedom.'
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You can call Don, You can call me Tuck, Just don't call me late for suppa! |
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04-30-2003, 08:41 AM
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#4 |
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Advanced Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,138
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Good post, Shizamus. I agree 100%. Homeland Security and the Patriot Act are only the latest of a long string of measures that are slowly but surely turning our beloved country into what we most fear.
Only after it's too late, will the American sheep wake up and realize that they are truly not safe. They will realize with horror that when they hid under the bed they allowed our government to become a tyrannical state. Blood will one day have to be spilled in America to once again reclaim our rights and liberties. Whether it will happen tomorrow, next year, or 50 years from now, nobody knows. But we are surely heading down that road. |
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05-02-2003, 02:51 PM
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#5 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Vermont
Posts: 891
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Good reply Sniper.
STAY ARMED WITH FACTS AND FIREARMS ! www.gcnlive.com for the best talk radio around. www.infowars.com |
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05-03-2003, 02:18 PM
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#6 | |||||||
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V.I.P. Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: VERMONT
Posts: 437
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Re: Trading Freedom For Security...
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Last edited by TF118; 05-03-2003 at 02:27 PM.. |
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05-03-2003, 08:08 PM
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#7 | |
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Advanced Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,138
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Quote:
TF118, with all due respect, I think Shizamus's attitude here is about as American as you can get. Our country was founded on a deep-seated mistrust of powerful government. The framers of the Constitution attempted to put in place certain limits on federal power. Over the last two-hundred some-odd years, our government has trampled over those restrictions. And it continues to do so. The founding fathers warned us of it in their political and personal writings, and they have been proven right. I'm one of those people that has "no faith that the people will not let the gov't go to that extreme". Take a look at our insane gun laws.... a clear violation of our rights. Where were "the people" then? And as our government puts into place certain measures that will allow them to peer into our personal lives and our bank accounts, where are "the people"? I'm not saying that our government necessarily has a secret plan to grab total power. I'm just saying that every year, somebody comes up with a good excuse to take away one more basic right from the American people. And every year, the people let them take away these rights. As the saying goes, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Today we give up certain freedoms in order to feel safe in our homes from terrorists. What will the excuse be tomorrow? I would rather take my chances against another terror attack than live in a police state. And trust me, that's where we're headed. Another good saying goes like this: it's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees. |
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05-03-2003, 09:53 PM
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#8 | |
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V.I.P. Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: VERMONT
Posts: 437
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Quote:
Last edited by TF118; 05-03-2003 at 10:08 PM.. |
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05-04-2003, 10:28 AM
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#9 |
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Adnanced Senior Member
Posts: n/a
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Gotta agree with TF118. I dont think that we are living in a police state...certain measures need to be taken to protect the people.
And if and when the people fell they dont need these measures...they will be deleted and fall by the wayside. You dont see relocation camps for americans of Iraqi descent do you??? All lot of the measures implemented during World War II were similar, yet they went by the wayside after the conflict was over. I dont think that you are giving the American people enough credit. They will vote out those who tread too heavily. Remember last election where every vote counted??? swede |
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05-05-2003, 12:26 AM
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#10 |
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Advanced Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains
Posts: 6,841
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With the laws that have been passed in “some” states already, (along with the fact that these cancerous laws are slowly spreading) as well as the patriot act I (possibly II) coming into play. I cannot see how anyone could possibly think, that we are not, headed into a police state. (Which may, or may not, happen within this generation, but is inevitable) The original intent of some of the laws may have been honorable to begin with, but they just opened the door, so that the gun grabbers could perverted and twist new laws to support their agenda, until finally the gun grabber do not even hide what they are trying to do. They want all guns, and a subservient population, and will settle for nothing less. This was started LONG before 9/11 ever happened. To use terrorism “now” as a excuse to pass unconstitutional laws, still results in having UNCONSTITUTIONAL laws! The apathy of “we the people” is what has led us into this sad state of affairs, and the same apathy will be the downfall of us all. My question is, when/where do you draw the line? I have to wonder, it is already too late.
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The gene pool needs chlorine |
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05-05-2003, 09:34 AM
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#11 |
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Advanced Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,138
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TF118, we're on the same page, I think. I know the government is passing laws in reaction to the public outcry for protection. But I do honestly wonder if/when these measures will ever go away. We have to look at the larger trends.
Let's step back and look at "freedom" as it was known in, say, 1785. Men could live their whole lives on their own land with minimal contact with the government. Perhaps paying land taxes was the only reason they ever saw a government employee. They lived their lives as they saw fit. Then step forward to today. At the very moment of birth, we are cataloged and put into the system. The law intrudes into every aspect of our lives, from the education of our children to the way we build our houses. There is nothing you can do that doesn't have some law associated with it. I fear that in another 200 years, the trend will have gone that much further. Yes, we may have short periods where we lose and regain liberties. But OVERALL, we have lost liberties. And we will continue to lose them. I'm not saying it's a plot by the government. Perhaps it is an actual movement by the people. But at some point the people will look back and regret that they freely gave away certain freedoms. Growing up during the latter part of the Cold War, I remember my parents telling me how lucky I was to have been born in the United States. They told me how horrible it was in the Soviet Union, where people had to be careful what they said and where they went, because 'Big Brother' was watching. My parents told me that the people of the Soviet Union had to have papers to go from place to place, and that the KGB watched everyone. I believed my parents when they said that kind of thing would never happen here because we were free. And now as an adult, I have started to see measures passed by our government that are shockingly similar. Sure, it may be under the guise of protecting us from terrorists. Just as, I'm sure, the USSR was protecting itself from the West. |
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05-05-2003, 01:34 PM
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#12 |
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V.I.P. Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: VERMONT
Posts: 437
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We are on the same page …we all share the same concerns ….we may just be looking from slightly different views…there will always be ‘gun grabbers ‘ to guard against …and they will always continue to take our guns…NEVER HAPPEN…and guns are not the only issue …but the U.S. will never cross the line to become the very thing we battle …the very thing that this country became separate from and what we have fought and died for, for over 200 years…those that would impose such rule would be weeded out…if our gov’t does go to far before the majority wakes up and attempts to impose such a gov’t on us you will see a revolution rite here …anything else would fly in the face of everything this country was founded on and has stood for and fought for…it would no longer be the USA ..THEY CAN HAVE MY GUNS WHEN THEY PRY MY COLD DEAD HANDS FROM THEM… it’s not just a slogan ….it’s a warning
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05-05-2003, 04:42 PM
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#13 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Vermont
Posts: 891
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Sniper in an earlier post agreed with me 100% he claimed,
then TF118 comes along and disputes everything i said, and the way i see it TF118 agrees about 0% with me. And then we have Sniper and TF118 claiming that they are on the same page, and I am claiming that me and TF118 are not on the same page and not in the same book even most of the time. I'll pause a little......  REALITY IS SCOFFED AT AND ILLUSION IS KING. Real talk radio at : www.gcnlive.com www.gulfwarvets.com www.thepowerhour.com www.infowars.com |
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05-05-2003, 04:54 PM
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#14 |
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Advanced Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,138
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Shizamus, I agree with you that our nation is becoming a police state.
But I also agree with TF118 that it probably is not some grand conspiracy.... and that the American people are at fault for letting it happen. After all, if the American people didn't like what our leaders were doing, they would vote them out of office, right? The only thing I still disagree with TF118 on is his claim that the Homeland Security Dept. and the Patriot Act(s) are necessary and justified. It IS possible to agree on certain points while disagreeing on others, and still be "on the same page". I saw nothing in your original post which implied that you believe this to be a conspiracy against the American people. So I agree with you on the warning that our freedoms are being taken without full realization on what we are getting into. |
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05-05-2003, 08:04 PM
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#15 | |
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V.I.P. Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: VERMONT
Posts: 437
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Quote:
The only 'page' Shiz and I appear to be on beside's agreeing to disagree is we're both concerned with our gov't and we both wish to preserve our Constituteional rights...only someone is a 'realist' and one should be on the X files ...over reacting ...seeing a conspirousy around every corner ...but both mean well ...this is only my opinion and not meant to be insulting to anyone so no offence...I also might add that I still as yet to hear what plan the king would unviel to prevent terrorism on US soil or against US interest's ...when you have a better plan I'd love to hear it...or should we / the gov't sit on it's duff and do nothing ? Good things like freedom don't come free...in a perfect world the terrorist would all have a crimson 'T' tattoed on their forehead and identification would be simple ...but it ain't a perfect world |
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05-05-2003, 10:40 PM
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#16 |
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Adnanced Senior Member
Posts: n/a
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Shiz...report back to earth...you have been listening to talk radio too long.
Stretch out your arms....there...that is the extent of your freedom. When you start touching and interacting with others...that is when your needs and freedoms are compromised. That is when you start thinking about the common good. Contrary to popular belief...there is not a govermental plot under every rock on your way to work. There are not two way switches in your television to monitor your activities, and the United Nations Flag does not fly above old Glory. People in this country are not necessarily the sheep that you all think. Would sheep have took back that hijacked plane over pennsylvania??? What about those firemen & cops that went back into the trade center knowing they might not come out? What about the marines in Iraq that went back to get their comrades under hostile fire??? Hell...they voted in a concealed carry law in MN...one of the most liberal gun grabbing states in the US. Why...because a lot of little guys like me wrote and called our state reps & senators to let them know how the silent majority thinks. I contacted all of them more than once...guess what ...I wasn't the only one. The American system aint perfect but it is the best we got. It does tend to work under pressure. Why do we got millions of foreign immigrants dying to come here...cause we got rights and we can use them. The voting percentage is a crying shame...but those that vote are the voices that matter. Prophets wailing away in the wilderness influence nothing...one vote can turn the table on a movement and change history. One vote kept Andrew Johnson president during Reconstruction. And it was cast by a man who detested Johnson personally but had the utmost respect for the office he held. I get awful tired of hearing this regurgitated militia BS about how the income tax is illegal, There is no bill of rights , and we are all slaves cause there is or isn't a fringe on the flag. WE have the best system known to man in this country. If we dont like the laws...guess what ...we can all get together and change them. I am all FOR keeping an eye on the federales and not losing any of my personal freedoms...however I know how to protect those rights too...at the voting booth. Do you know who your elected representatives are??? Better yet do they know you??? Most of them tend to vote the will of their district...or so they say. Guess what...with no feedback from you, they will vote their conscience...or lack of same. My representatives know my name...do yours??? A police state would exist in America only if the common people would allow it to happen...I personally feel that there are way too many gun owners and vets to allow that. If you teach your children the rights and wrongs...well the next generation will take care of itself too. I am way too much of an optimist and a believer in the spirit of American people to buy into the darkness that you are ranting about. I have rambled long enough. swede |
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05-05-2003, 11:25 PM
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#17 |
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Former Guest
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Moses Lake, WA
Posts: 10,344
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Ramble on, Swede. We need to hear more of that and less of the "Woe is me, because you people are sh1ts."
Shizamus...Mr Ryan...Guess what guys, not everybody out here is as witless and gutless as you would like us to be. The coniving politicians and the whining revolutionaries would both like us to be just as you describe the American populace: gutless, mindless and subservient. It infuriates them when someone stands up and tells them where to get off, where to put their programs and then ignores them. Both the coniving politician and the whining reloutionary have a vested interested in pressing the case for the mindless, gutless Average American. If they can make it so, they will have won power. America still has a solid core of thinking, vigilant people and (reasonably) honest politicians to beat back the corrupt. We do have to keep working at it, however. This is where people like Shizamus and Mr Ryan have a purpose. They tend to get us so PO'd, we go out and rattle some legislator's cage. Good job, guys. Keep up the good work. Carry on.  |
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05-06-2003, 07:34 AM
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#18 |
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Advanced Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,138
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A&S, I think you made a very good point there. It takes all types to keep this country strong.
If we all go around patting each other on the back all the time and telling each other what a great country this is, we become complacent and stagnant. We need people like Shizamus reminding us that the battle for freedom is never over. We must fight for it every day. And whether you like it or not, there are millions of Americans who would be perfectly happy to see a lot of our freedoms go down the drain. I'm talking about gun-grabbers and their ilk. So we must remain vigilant. While most people here probably consider Shizamus's posts a little on the paranoid side, I think he has a good message. And he keeps us on our toes.... or at least keeps us thinking about our fight against the "dark side". |
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05-06-2003, 08:16 AM
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#19 |
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*TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor*
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: At SouthernMoss' side forever!
Contributor
Posts: 13,854
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Paranoia is relative.....
Vigilance, however, is not relative and is the call that is the basis of this thread, no matter the method or thought processes used to reach the conclusion. Without vigilance all would be lost and we would end up standing by while the worst gradually takes place and being quilty of the crime of letting it happen thinking that someone else is responsible and will do it, so don't worry. It is not unlike one trying to kill with arsnic - - Give a huge dose and it is relatively swift; gradual small doses here and there and it will eventually have effect, but over a long period of time and no one will notice! Our task is to be ever vigilant and to guard not only against the end result but to be in tune with the little tricks and subterfuges that become the dire consequences. It is work but for those of us who care and still have the Founding Dather's vision for this great nation, do not consider it so and will keep being ever on top of it. This is what Ben Franklin was saying when he stated as shown below. Sorry for the soap box but the bottom line is keep your eyes and ears open and be ready to pounch at the drop of a hat, to use a very aprpos cliché.....
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The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. The only criminal class native to the United States is Congress. Last edited by Marlin; 05-08-2003 at 08:01 AM.. |
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05-06-2003, 09:05 AM
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#20 |
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*Admin Tech Staff*
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: SW MS
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Don't apologize, Marlin. We have soapboxes in every corner here in GD for just that purpose.
 Always good to hear the viewpoint of someone who has been on the other side of the bench. |
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05-08-2003, 02:09 AM
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#21 | |
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V.I.P. Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SW Indiana
Posts: 120
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Quote:
Now tell me am more correct or more wrong? I'm not saying always, everyone, no one, or never, I'm saying "am I more wrong or right". I'll make a little suggestion here. Go out and try to collect signatures from the general population to get someone on the ballot sometime. Do a little door to door canvasing. Don't skip to the good neighbor hood, go to every door. Then come back and tell me about the majority of "Americans".
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Send all those Vegans back to Vega if they don't like it! Who invited them to this planet any way? |
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05-08-2003, 01:00 PM
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#22 |
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Former Guest
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Moses Lake, WA
Posts: 10,344
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Mr. Ryan
The only place I see reference to " the majority of "AMERICANS." " is in your response to my comment. Which comment, by the way included: [/QUOTE]America still has a solid core of thinking, vigilant people and (reasonably) honest politicians to beat back the corrupt.[/QUOTE] When I was taught to use the language, a "core" did not necessarily mean, nor did it require, a majority of the object, substance, stuff being described. It appears to fit your agenda to label all except you as useless, but it does not fit my agenda. Despite your urgings to the contrary, I will not give up the fight, nor will I join the ranks of the uninformed, uninspired floaters. I think I understand your goal in denigrating us as you do, but I do not agree with your methods. The end does not justify the means. |
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05-09-2003, 12:58 AM
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#23 | |
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V.I.P. Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SW Indiana
Posts: 120
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Quote:
When I was taught to use the language, a "core" did not necessarily mean, nor did it require, a majority of the object, substance, stuff being described. Ok It appears to fit your agenda to label all except you as useless, but it does not fit my agenda. Not labelling ALL as useless. Not a bit and especially not ALL BUT ME. Many are a lot more useful than I am. But we all have our purpose in it's time. Despite your urgings to the contrary, I will not give up the fight, nor will I join the ranks of the uninformed, uninspired floaters. My intent is hardly to encourage any one to join the ranks you've mentioned here. Their ranks are over flowing already. I think I understand your goal in denigrating us as you do, but I do not agree with your methods. The end does not justify the means. [/QUOTE] No intent to denigrate any one. Only to inject a little reality into the blue skies and rose colored dream land where some people think Daniel Boone and Davy Crocket are going to stand up suddenly at the last minute and save us all from the County Sherriff the day an oppressive government sends him knocking on the door.
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Send all those Vegans back to Vega if they don't like it! Who invited them to this planet any way? |
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05-09-2003, 06:38 AM
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#24 | ||
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Adnanced Senior Member
Posts: n/a
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it's the smoke up our @ss that get's irritating then again, maybe not? |
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05-09-2003, 06:38 AM
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#25 |
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Adnanced Senior Member
Posts: n/a
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As I said before: "WE have the best system known to man in this country. If we dont like the laws...guess what ...we can all get together and change them. I am all FOR keeping an eye on the federales and not losing any of my personal freedoms...however I know how to protect those rights too...at the voting booth. Do you know who your elected representatives are??? Better yet do they know you??? Most of them tend to vote the will of their district...or so they say. Guess what...with no feedback from you, they will vote their conscience...or lack of same. My representatives know my name...do yours??? A police state would exist in America only if the common people would allow it to happen...I personally feel that there are way too many gun owners and vets to allow that. If you teach your children the rights and wrongs...well the next generation will take care of itself too. I am way too much of an optimist and a believer in the spirit of American people to buy into the darkness that you are ranting about. " Nothing wrong with keeping yourself and other folks informed. But remember groups just like the people that post in this forum have considerable clout when they choose to exercise it. The choice of when & where is yours... swede |
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