When will we stop this insanity

[belercous]

Terry P: S.S. will only require minor tweaking to keep it solvent. It still takes in more than it pays out, not too bad. If our tax system was this good we'd be running a surplus and would also save on all the intrest we currently pay for spending we did years ago. S.S. is also the most wildly popular gov. program ever.
Medicare is not gov. run health care. It is single payer, i.e., socialized insurance, not socialized medicine. The gov. does not hire the doctors, it pays private doctors for service. No doctor is required to accept medicare/medicaid patients, it is their own choice to do so.
Washington is not going to cut medicare payments, that is not a politically viable option, and especially so if a public option becomes the law. And there really isn't that much graft & inefficiency. There is however, incentive to run more tests and provide more services than are neccessary to recoup the $ that they otherwise get from private insurance. What needs reform is the pay-for-service (which is one-size-fits-all) to pay-for-outcome. Also we could benefit from having special courts to handle med-mal cases. Juries just don't have the medical knowledge to decide these cases. Tort-reform of this nature is needed, caps on non-economic injuries only benefit the wealthy at the expense of the injured and do little, if anything, to curb malpractice. Juries usually base their judgment on emotion, not fact. Seperate healthcare courts, with advocates skilled in standard medical practices (and I would add a professional jury, but that's no gonna happen), would go a long way in reducing "defensive medicine" which is a factor in the cost of health care.
No, the U.S. does not have the best healthcare system in the world. Nor are we even close. We have the best healthcare, for those who can afford it, but our system is ranked #37. We have an infant mortality rate that compares with the best of the 3rd world nations. Not even close to the rates of the 1st (industrialized) world. I know 3 people who live in Great Britain and none of them would trade their health care system for ours. Of course, none of them are rich. Your example of C. Denne is not indicative of the system as a whole, that is the trouble with anecdotal evidence. Anyone can always trt out a bad example of anything, this is why statistical evidence is more representative. (how many hospitals were surveyed in the statistic you cited? Could also be that G.B. has a problem in this area, hard to tell from what you cited.) Anecdotal evidence is never considered dispositive for this reason.
Again, the medical issue with your mother is anecdotal. I'm glad her eyesight was saved. Was your mother part of a "test" or was the hospital just being benevolent so as to get a tax exemption for providing charity? There are many more instances of insurance companies denying claims where people just have to "live with it" or even die because the person could not afford the treatment. Usually, it is an insurance co. bureaucrat calling the shots. Me, I'll take the gov. bureaucrat calling the shots as there is always a way to over-rule their decision. Not so with an insurance co. And a gov.-run program does not have to include a 20-30% profit margin. Now, I'm not normal, but I'd rather pay less for the same service.
Actually, Gov. death (squads) panels is a lie. Actually, it's a joke, and the joke is on those who are gullible enough to believe it. Please point that out where I am mistaken. Chapter & verse so I can research it. It's not there, never was.
And contrary to what the right wing media may have you believe, liberals don't want to control anyone's life. If I may remind you. Liberals were the ones that started the American revoulution, who believed in the soveriegnty of man, who fought and died for freedom. The conservatives, in 1776, were on the side of Great Britain. They were called "Tories" back then. Liberals were the ones who got our country our freedoms and they are even more patriotic than the "Conservatives" who believe it is alright to spy on Americans.
I am a American first, a Liberal second, and damn proud of it. I also believe in the right to keep & bear arms. I do so, not because I love to hunt (I don't) but for personal protection, and more importantly, for protection from my government. The 2nd Amen. was a gaurantee that the citizens of a state are allowed, yeah permitted, to defend their soveriegnty against the federal government. I will also go on record as saying that the northern invasion of the south was a violation of the compact entered into in 1787. A state should have the right to secede when they (the people) believe that the contract has been violated or is no longer valid. And I'm a northerner. I would never have taken up arms against the south if I were alive in the 1860's, not that I approved at all of slavery, but rather that the South got screwed on the bargain. (If you want a divorce, should might make right?)
Sorry to trouble you good folk, but yes, I am a liberal. I also make reasoned arguments to my liberal friends for the right to carry. I have swayed opinions. I have also taught a few friends (11 at least) to shoot. Liberal as hell, but they loved it. Especially when I put them on a tack-diver .22 and they hit bullseyes at 50 yds. Very few have not come away from my reasoning still believing that banning all guns is the way to go. None of my friends have a problem with home protection. One step at a time, we'll get there.

[big donnie]

You would be told that Spectre is serving all the PEOPLE, not just one party, therefore he is just. The fact that this is one more lie dosen't matter.

[belercous]

WTF? Who told you that Arlen represented anyone outside of his district or money-zone? Cash is cash, and $ is representation, votes are secondary, they follow the cash. Did you not get the memo? Arlen doesn't hear you until you give $10,000, min. We have a free-market legislature, so give de luxe, or forget it. Can you deliver a few thousand votes? If not, go with the cash route. This is America, land of the Dollar Bill. Democracy, you say, try putting votes up against campaign propaganda. You will lose every time, you ain't won yet, so why do you think you will prevail now?. All the candidates have already been vetted by Big Biz, Inc., so sit back , B.O.H.I.C.A. And smile, 'cuz you're part of it too.

[UncleFudd]

Belercous;
You are one of the most articulate and intelligent (sounding) libs I have heard/seen/listened in a while.
So far you and I agree on the second amendment.
I see what our schools are doing under the liberal bent and I see what is happening with "God" in anything having to do with anything under liberal care, and say what you will and put al the lipstick on it you would like the SS system is broke because all the liberal a$$holes can't keep their fingers out of it for their pet projects, (now they are tapping into the military budget admittedly because as they say in their own words, the people will replace what we take because they will never stand still for underfunding or shorting our boys and girls in the military).
I am proud of you and your efforts to help others to understand their basic rights to own firearms and to bear them if they so desire. How about a great big wet willy along with my thanks.
I have worked with and helped a couple of folks along the line in the past few years myself and it is always a good feeling as you say to see the results.

I absolutely cannot buy your beautiful and articulate (once again) presentation of the good of the liberals and I guess you and I are working with or listening to two different animals by your description. The libs that I know want ONLY to control everything beginning with the lives of everyone around them. They really believe there is a utopia and that if they just have the opportunity we can all live there at the expense of those who work the hardest and earn the most money. Sit back, don't worry someone will take care of it and there are always more taxes we can levy to make up the shortfall.

In fact, just wait and watch as the kid in the White house as he brings on more liberal, communist, socialist, marxist liberal friends to help him control every aspect of our lives and as soon as he can get them all in place and functioning as one unit it will happen and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it now. The RNC is so pathetical in their attempts to find out what hit them they are for all intents useless and do not have a clue. They have no one with the ability to understand and to lead the nation back into some semblance of normalcy so we have to do as you said, sit back and watch. The ride will be anything but good for this nation or the 50% of the people who want to work and live and raise their families and the outcome will see us as a true third world nation and I am sorry to say very soon.
I suspect you sir have never lived outside the confines of the United 'states and if so have not had the opportunity to live in a country that has a scrip unique to its own and valuable to none other in the world. When the Chinese and Russians and indians change the oil money we will overnight find ourselves in this exact situation and only then will we see the horrible results of what we have done at the voting booth over the past 50 years or so.

And frankly the health care you talk about when it is enacted and forced down our throats, will be the final straw in breaking the back of our economy.

All that is needed then will be an "emergency" of some nature in order for the president to call for or declare Marshall law and the guns will be taken in order to "protect the whole".

Great and flowery words that make us mere mortals feel small to say the least, but I would give a bunch to get every liberal out of every office in the land, let us go back to work to earn a fair wage for the time we spend and let the free market rule.

And BTW, lets get rid of Arlen Specter and John McCain and the other show have turned against the party or people who elected them to office. Lets make sure they know they cannot do these things and profit from their decisions and if possible as my first question asked, lets bring action against them in a court to make our point even more obvious.

UF

[45nut]

Yo belercous (and other libs)

Socialism is Socialism already. We have too much of it as it is. We do not need to go down the same health care path to hell that England, Canada et al have gone down.

I am well read, verbose and can trot out a lot of arguments and ideas as to why this is a bad idea. In this case I think I'll stick to my redneck roots and make it simple for you. I do not need the Federal Government taking care of me.

I do not trust them to make the correct decisions and to spend money wisely. I remember going to the DMV and I don't want government bureaucrats deciding what kind of medical care, procedures, medicine or surgery I'm allowed to have. I certainly don't need any end of life counseling from DC.

Saul Alinsky's rule of overwhelming the system sound familiar?

Finally, and I hate to shout, but sometimes you have to to make yourself heard over the whining of the liberal left wing propaganda machine:

It's about CONTROL. Control of your life, money, transportation, home, job, and finally, firearms, yes guns. They are bad for your health. Guns cause death and injuries and cause the cost of GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE to rise dramatically in areas where evil guns are not totally outlawed.

Do you think for one moment that Fedzilla wants control of health care because they actually care about you? If you do, I've got some good bottom land in AZ I'd like to sell you.

What would fix the health care problems are tort reform, allow insurance companies to compete across state lines and looking into the third party payment system. I'm not sure that that is not part of the problem too.

CONTROL YOU, YOUR MONEY, YOUR JOB, YOUR HOME, YOUR CHILDREN, YOUR CAR, YOUR TV, YOUR INTERNET, YOUR NEWS, YOUR LIFE. Wake the hell up already.

[belercous]

No one is going to mandate you buy health insurance from the gov. My friends in Great Britain don't think their medical coverage is "hell" and they certainly would not want our system. You may not need the Fed. Gov. to take care of you, but the fact is our healthcare system doesn't work for too many people. Insurance companies exist to make $. They do this by denying coverage for whatever reason they can. I don't want insurance co. bureaucrats making my healthcare decisions for me. At least with the gov. there is recourse, not so much with private companies.
By the way, the DMVs are run by the states, not the fed. gov. I have never had a problem with my local DMV, so I'm not sure what the problem is.
No, it's not about control of your life. Guns & healthcare?" Wtf? I don't know what that's about, but then again I live on earth.
Do you really think insurance companies care about your health more than your wallet? Apparently so, this explains how you got your AZ bottom land.
I suppose that you won't accept social security benefits because it is "socialism" promoted by the fed. gov. "Socialism" is bad or something? Every government believes in socialism, so I'm not sure what that's about. I don't even think it's possible to have a gov. without socialism. Our military is socialzed defense, our parks are socialized nature, and our highways are socialized roads. Yes, socialism is a bad idea.

[GMFWoodchuck]

It will stop when people stop voting for people just because they are "republican" or "democrat." Look at NYC. Everyone thinks that Gulliani and Bloomberg are republicans. In what aspect are they republicans other than by name? Everything they push for are democrat ideals. Look at McCain, every republican voted for this guy for president. Why? He's really a democrat under a different name. The same goes for some democrats, although they seem to be quite a bit on the rare side.

It will stop when people actually learn about the people they vote for instead of just checking their party boxes. In other words, it will never stop. People are to lazy to learn anything.

[45nut]

Sorry folks, I had to go play with my user cp. I wish they had an automatic lib filter.

Control is the word. Libs want to exercise it over you and me. Oh and guns and medicine is a valid subject to look into, not make fun of. But then, I don't think you have or like them anyway. Troll on baby.

Had to go find the link

[keepitlow]

...and why our elected officials are doing such as they are with "health care"



There is only one solution to this mess. And don't count on the gov giving it to us.

The solution is this. We need s socialized healthcare plan for the poor (people making under $150,000 a year) as well as a 'fee for service' plan for the rich. (current healthcare plan in the US.)

But the insurance companies that own the politicians wont go for it.

Capitalism and greed block social ethics at every turn.

And if per chance a politicians leans in a direction of social ethics. The lobbyists funded by the rich tell him or her we will back your opponent and take you out of office come next election. But if you play ball we will fund your campaign.

So human nature what it is, they go where the money flows.

We already have a socialized education system. We all pay for educating the kids through taxes. And some of us use this system and others don't, but we all pay. The people that don't want to use the public education system go the private education route.

So it should be with healthcare.

Tax people 1% to 6% depending on income and start a gov run healthcare system that can be used by ANY citizen in need. If that tax is not enough revenue, then start charging foreigners flying into the US an arrival and departure tax. Or start charging a 1% SHC (socialized health care) sales tax.

And tell all those new doctors in and out of med school the must work for the gov for 2 yrs with the socialized med plan. Tell them if you want to be n MD and make big bucks work in a cushy office and squeeze boobs all day you are going to have to give back to society a little before you go off to your practice.

If some of the citizens don't like receiving socialized government run healthcare, then they can always go the private healthcare route and pay their own way. Just as they can do with private education, if public schools are not to their liking. This is the only way a socialized healthcare proposal would work in the US of A. You need duplicate healthcare systems to satisfy all comers. The rich and the poor that cannot afford the rich healthcare system.

If the government has to limit care for the elderly, then do so. Sure give seniors good med care, but if it comes to hundreds of thousands of dollars for life support, tell them they are free to pay their way to private healthcare, but the gov and the people can't afford a half million dollars for every senior in the country just to keep them on ventilators.

And I'm not a young guy bashing seniors either,

I'm near 60 myself. But I realize that we can't keep printing endless money in the US of A. We must all start to think of what is best for society, as our world is fast decomposing before our very eyes.

Most important, put this plan to a NATIONAL VOTE....Let the people decide what they want.

Many of the people in the uninsured camp were once insured. But through some hardship they can no longer afford the average annual premiums of $13,375.00.

You know, you may not have med insurance someday and be in the camp of the uninsured. And even if you are lucky enough to have some med pay, it may be shockingly different in benefits from what you have now.

Here is something to consider to broaden the minds of those stuck in the tunnel vision of their own little world.

"Kaiser forecast that the yearly family premium for health insurance could reach $30,803.00 in ten years if the 8.7% annual increase of the previous 10 years were to continue."

http://www.kff.org/pullingittogether/091509_altman.cfm

And lets go out a further 10 years. Now, the average premium is $70,939.00 per year at an 8.7% annual increase.

Some of you say that is ridiculous? Well, why so? If it has happened on a continual and regular year in - year out basis for decades...what will stop it?

I gotta rant a little over the knuckleheads on TV that demand affordable healthcare. I wish they would stop talking nonsense about how they want 'affordable healthcare' without a socialized healthcare system.

Doctors pays hundreds of thousands of $$ per year for malpractice insurance, as everyone is sue happy and tries to hit the lotto by going to court. The doctors runs every test under the sun to cover their xyz if they do have to go to court.

The doctors have high overhead with office and personnel expenses. In addition, the doctors work hard to go to expensive schools for many years, so want to earn some big bucks. And their high priced houses, expensive cars and trophy wives suck down lots of money.

The drug companies pay off the politicians to keep their drugs artificially high priced. And the insurance corporations are run for max profit for the high salaried CEO's and money grabbing shareholders. The hospitals are very expensive to build and run and have lots of expensive employees and overhead.

So where in the hell do people get the dream that ALL this will EVER be AFFORDABLE?

Many people seem to think the health insurance companies are charities and supposed to work for the benefit of the sick and needy. They are ONLY in biz to make money and not dole out charity. So don't get confused on this point.

The good customer for the insurance company is the customer they never hear from, other than to get their premiums each month. The good customer for the insurance company is one that gets sick and then dies immediately in their sleep...before the insurance company has to dole out a red cent. The well run insurance companies job is to DENY as many claims as it can to MAXIMIZE their profit...that is the capitalists way.
After all, we are a capitalist country and not a socialist country, so one must take the good with the bad.

In my own case I have 'gone naked' for the last 25 years when it comes to health insurance. I just can't afford it...$14,850 a year for me and wife. I used to have Kaiser insurance when I lived in L.A. I paid about $60 to $80 a month for it, can't exactly remember. Then moved out of L.A. in the 1980's to the East coast. Times got tough with the jobs and had to drop the med ins and could never afford to get it back.


All that is left for me to do is to take care of my health the best I can and live like they did in the old days before hospitals were invented. But many Americans are not such health conscious.

Get this DVD from your library:

http://www.amazon.com/Super-Size-Me-.../dp/B0002OXVBO

Showcases the poisonous diet that is being pushed off to Americans...again under the mandate of the almighty dollar that capitalism promotes as god.

Americans will keep getting sicker and sicker as their unhealthy lifestyles and poisonous unnatural diets work their evil...and healthcare will just keep getting less and less affordable for them.

[belercous]

Fudd: We can agree to disagree, certainly that is the American way. As far as gun rights, I believe that I can do more as a liberal than any conservative in re; convincing other liberals that guns are not inherently evil. Where I live (downstate Illinois) there are many more liberals that are ok with guns than not. I'd like to think that I've had some hand in this. I've taken many other liberals (including women & minors) out to the range & taught them gun saftey & how to shoot. They all loved it.
As to our political differences (and this includes all you other conservatives who may be listening), I base my judgments on actual fact, not emotion as all too many people do. That is why I usually (but not always) come down on the liberal side. The part of me, when it comes down to emotion, when making a policy choice favors people, not profit. This seems to be a big (but not the only) divide in the liberal/conservative debate. I value quality of life over cash. I am low income, by choice. I no longer need to work as I chose not to have children. My house & car are paid for. I have enough to live on til age 67 when I can retire (again?). Realisticaly, I don't expect to live that long as I drink whisky, smoke, cuss, & eat primarily red meat. As such, I retired when I was 30 so I could enjoy life. I could easily make well over $100,000/yr. if I chose to. (I am a certified aircraft mechanic & have graduated law school. I live in Madison County, the home of the class action lawsuit). I do not miss wasting my life for the almighty dollar. My time is spent at the range, riding my 4-wheelers, boating and doing whatever I feel like. I've watched too many of my friends die before their time (I'm 48) from cancer, drinking, fast cars, and drugs. None of them have said they wished they spent more time working on their deathbed. My live-in (I ain't about to get married) of over 10 yrs. died 'cuz she didn't have health insurance. Her sore throat, when she finally did go to the hospital turned out to be stage IV cancer, so you might see why I am for a public option.
I can agree with Keepitlow's opinion on health care also. I also don't seem to be an outlier on this issue, aprox. 2/3 of Americans are for a public option of some sort.
I challenge everyone, liberal and conservative alike, to actually get the facts on whatever issue you think you already know the answer to. You may be surprised. I don't bother reading liberal publications as that its generally my position, I don't need to reinforce my opinion. I read publications such as the Weekly Standard, and books by
conservative authors like Limbaugh, Coulter & O'Reily. I listen to many of the Hate Radio shows. I also listen to NPR. I occasionaly agree with the conservative viewpoint. But usually I listen to them for the humor. I'm usually not laughing with them, but at them. The hypocrisy is glaring. Hate radio is like professional wrestling. It's entertaining, but if you believe it's real then the joke is on you. Most of these hosts have not even graduated college (M. Savage excepted, but he's a total loon), but are quite intelligent (G. Beck excepted) nonetheless. They are quite good at pointing out fallacious arguments, but only on the other side. They use the same fallacies, specious arguments and quote discredited sources in their arguments. And then claim to have "proved" their point. There is a reason these people don't have on guests that present an opposing view, or the callers are not allowed to rebut the host. Or, they put on callers who simply "isn't not too much bright." (Allan Colmes, really? He's not a true liberal, and he "isn't not too much bright" either) Fox "News" isn't a reliable source of news either. They lie, and have been caught many times at it.
DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. If 35 sources say one thing and 1 or 2 sources contradict it, 99% of the time the 35 are correct. The best advice I can give anyone who seeks to know the truth, which is not many since most people believe they just "know" the truth, is to take a single college course. Critical Thinking. Either you will get it or you won't. You need to get it in order to be able to detect Bull Ship. That is the most important class I have been able to discern in my years of higher education, it teaches one how to think for themself.
Oh, yeah. Also take an entry level course in Political Science. This will clear up the misconception that most people have in re; socialism. Government IS socialism. Against socialism, must therefore be against government. Against government, must be an anarchist. That is a sylogism (see: critical thinking. It is also a logicaly valid argument.)

P.S.; That new DRT personal defense frangible ammo, at least in .40 thru a glock 22 and 23, is highly inaccurate stuff. At over $60.00/box of 50, I'm sending mine back.

[Marlin T]

I believe that I can do more as a liberal than any conservative in re; convincing other liberals that guns are not inherently evil.

This may be true but unless you stop voting the liberal side of life, you are an enemy of the second amendment. The same goes for any democrat that owns firearms. Until you open your eyes and read the stats of how democrats vote when it comes to the Bill of Rights, then change your voting habits, you are not worth my time.

Where I live (downstate Illinois) there are many more liberals that are ok with guns than not.

This is exactly what I’m talking about, if your liberals voted, they voted FOR more gun control. Your statement is an oxymoron.

I 've taken many other liberals (including women & minors) out to the range & taught them gun saftey & how to shoot. They all loved it.

Do they love it enough to actually start supporting the Bill of Rights now?

If you want to see for yourself how the majority of liberals vote and are honest enough to read it for yourself, click HERE. Pick any bill, or better yet, all the bills then take notice of how the Dems historically vote.

The stats speak for themselves, you vote for a Dem, you're against the Bill of Rights.

[belercous]

Marlin T: Sorry, but I'm not a single-issue voter. I have a life outside of guns. I'm not a Dem., but they represent my viewpoint way more than the Reps. Guns are great, but they are not my life. I have other interests. By the way, gun-control is not on the Dems to-do list, or maybe you have'nt got the memo. It's a political non-statrer, and has been since 1994. Obviously you are not too politically aware.
No, once again, you are not too politically aware. Downstate Illinois is all for concealed carry. the 2 biggest downstate counties (Madison & St. Clair) have sheriffs (Merle Justus, believe it or not, is Sheriff in St Clair County) all for concealed carry. We are the bluest (outside of Cook) of anywhere else in the state. And we are all for guns. Obviously, you have been fed some bad information. And you swallowed it. A Republican couldn't get elected dog-catcher down here and a Democrat couldn't get elected if he were against guns. It is quite apparent that you know nothing of which you speak.
And you know something about the Bill of Rights? So just exactly what law school did you go to? How many years have you spent researching our Constitution? I'll go out on a limb here and just say that you likely have never even graduated college, much less even studied American history or the Constitution.
I'm an enemy of the 2nd Amen.? WTF? Dude, you simply ain't too bright. Please explain to me, since you are such a Constitutional scholar, what rights did an individual have, in re; the 1st Amen. of the U.S. Constotution, have in 1822?
Answer that. You have Google. Go. You don't have days to answer (and talk to someone who knows)
And yes, they do (now) support the right to own guns. But no, I'm not so sure that they are under any delusion that the 2nd Amen. means that an individual has the right to own firearms as gauranteed by the fed. gov. I've never gotten into such a discussion with any of them, simply because it has never come up. We just like burning powder, making sound and drilling holes.
No, not all Dems are anti-gun. Obviously you have no idea of which you speak. Not all Dems are against guns. Check out the Congressional Record. I know you haven't just because of your post. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. You really sound, umm, uninformed. And I'm putting that mildly.
By the way, since you seem to be such a Constitutional scholar, can you inform us all about where in the Constitution is the right to privacy? Or do we not have a right to privacy? Tell me where in the Constitution that we have a right to not be spied on by the Gov.
If the 1st Amen. says that "Congress shall make no law...prohibiting the free excercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech..." why do we have laws against (and have been unanimouosly been upheld by thr S.C.) against conspiracy against the gov.? That's free speech, isn't it? No, you can't answer those questions, and you can't because you don't have a clue. You have no idea about that which you speak, you are simply going on your "feelings."
Yeah, the Dems don't care about the Constitution, the Reps are the only ones. Except when it comes to, well, G.W.B. How many SCOTUS decisions was it that over-ruled him, I lost count after the first 10 or so. "Any" dem., we all think the same. Dog, you just not too politically aware.
It's not me you need to convince, nor is it the choir you need to preach to. Them votes be there and counted. (as of now, 1 out of 5 Americans consider themselves republicans, 1 out of 3 democrats, the rest independents) It is the independent voters that need to be swayed. And I want you to be out there loud, along with Rush. Move the reps further right. I couldn't ask for more. Do me that justice, please. You guys are doing more for the Dem. party than they could do theirselves.

[belercous]

Damn, I really need to get back on my meds to keep me from these diatribes. I guess bourbon doesn't really count as a med. Even if I double-up on it. Sorry to all you good people, but I just couldn't resist.
P.S.; Agulia Match Rifle .22 lr is pretty good stuff. No misfeeds in my 10-22, and it leaves one ragged hole at 50 yds. (only has a scope and a Houge stock) Nothing trick done to the rifle, do use a benchrest though. A lot cheaper ammo than the Remmington Club Extra and just as good. Do not waste your money or time on regular Remmington "match" ammo, it's no better than bulk.

[Marlin T]

Originally Posted by Marlin T

If you want to see for yourself how the majority of liberals vote and are honest enough to read it for yourself, click HERE. Pick any bill, or better yet, all the bills then take notice of how the Dems historically vote.

I hate it when I have to quote myself.

[PharmrJohn]

This turned into a great thread. Not the completely one sided take I am used to reading. I like it. Debate on.......

And 45, it's a good thing you cannot filter libs. Learn about it. You don't need to embrace it. You don't need to agree with it and you certainly don't need to practice it. Much like I am learning the right wing ideology. A lot of it I shake my head at (especially the Amierica is not going to survive concept), but at least I understand it. So far, that is the most valuable thing I have gotton out of this site. A different point of view. There are many roads........

[45nut]

Originally Posted by PharmrJohn

This turned into a great thread. Not the completely one sided take I am used to reading. I like it. Debate on.......

And 45, it's a good thing you cannot filter libs. Learn about it. You don't need to embrace it. You don't need to agree with it and you certainly don't need to practice it. Much like I am learning the right wing ideology. A lot of it I shake my head at (especially the Amierica is not going to survive concept), but at least I understand it. So far, that is the most valuable thing I have gotton out of this site. A different point of view. There are many roads........

Hey Phamr,

Thanks for your contributions to the forum. It's not the libs so much as the DNC talking points. I have a liberal fly fishing buddy who has his CHL and we debate like a couple of angry old men. Oh, maybe we are. I keep telling him we need to watch Fedzilla very closely to make sure no more of our liberties are taken away. He calls me chicken little sometimes. He tells me I listen to Beck too much. The point is, I know and understand the Progressive mind set pretty well. I have read a good deal about Woodrow Wilson, Teddy, and the early Progressive movement. Thank you Woodrow for the Federal Reserve - NOT.

What I detest intensely, are people telling me that I need to live in a nanny state, that the government knows best how to take care of me. The government knows what I should drive or eat, where I can work, HOW MUCH I CAN EARN, what kind of house, or appliances I can have, what I can or cannot kill or grow to eat. Progressives, or Liberals if you will, do not want a free market economy. They think capitalism is evil and punishes people. They do not want equal opportunity, but equal results. They want to take my hard earned money and give it to people not willing to get off their ass and get a job and become a contributing member of society. (redistribution of wealth, the #1 tenant of Marxism - From one persons abundance to another persons need)

They want to punish rich people & evil corporations. They blasted Exxon for the huge profit they made in 2007. So they made 40 billion dollars. That 40 billion dollars was actually about a 7% profit. I'll repeat that. They made a 7% profit, so that means they spent how much to make 7% profit? 526 Billion dollars. How many people does Exxon employ? Are they all millionaires? No, most are working stiffs like you and me. They have the capital to drill for oil, they employ people of all skill levels to produce said oil, and Obozo wants to tell Exxon how much money they can pay their employees? Shut Up and take care of what the U S Constitution declares is your duty and no more.

Rich people and rich corporations employ Americans. I'm talking about business owners that are worth more than a million dollars. Small to medium businesses and yes the giant corporations too. The proposed cap and tax and the health care BS will drive up operating costs & energy costs and shut down businesses that can't afford the stupid carbon emissions upgrade. Business owners will move their operations to other countries where they can operate more freely and make a profit. 1.7 million jobs per anum will be lost because of the cap & tax bill if it passes. The health care bill will put MY Doctor out of business.

Why do liberals think they are smarter than I am? Why do they think they can spend my money better than I can?

I can go on ad nauseum, but what's the point. Phamr, I know you don't want to keep growing entitlement programs, think that an armed populace is a free populace and that big government can never be a good thing. Thank you GW Bush for being a fiscal dumb@$$ and never vetoing ONE *$&#^%#(*@&#$ spending bill. Oh and for securing the border.

Now on to the current band of raving lunatics running around in the White House. I'll name just a few of the real left wing nuts.

Van Jones - Radical Communist. His words, not Becks
Anita Dunn - Chairman Mao is her favorite Political Philosopher??
Cass Sunstien - Animal Rights wacko that thinks animals should have legal representation in court to sue humans. Also thinks we shouldn't eat animals.
Carol Browner - Worked on the Socialist International's Commission for a Sustainable World Society, which argues that the global community must work collectively to address environmental policies.
John Holdren - In a 1977 book he wrote "population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortion, could be sustained under the existing Constitution."
And Ron Bloom, a recent White House appointee, said in a speech that free market capitalism is a lie, does not work and quoted Chairman Mao saying that political power mostly comes from the barrel of a gun.

You also have Anita Dunn saying Mao is her favorite political philosopher? Chairman Mao, who killed 50 to 70 million of his own people is being quoted by White House officials as a source of inspiration?? WTF are they thinking? If one of Bush's advisers or czars said that Adolf was their favorite ANYTHING, the media would have blasted them and Bush and rightly so. But no one has a problem with the WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR espousing admiration for Chairman Mao?????? Pull your heads out of your nether regions and look at what Progressives are doing. Look at where they want to take America. Is this acceptable to you? If this is what you want, them all hope for a free America is lost.

P.S.
Don't even bother belercous.

[keepitlow]

Originally Posted by 45nut

Yo belercous (and other libs)

Socialism is Socialism already. We have too much of it as it is. We do not need to go down the same health care path to hell that England, Canada et al have gone down.

I am well read, verbose and can trot out a lot of arguments and ideas as to why this is a bad idea. In this case I think I'll stick to my redneck roots and make it simple for you. I do not need the Federal Government taking care of me.

I do not trust them to make the correct decisions and to spend money wisely. I remember going to the DMV and I don't want government bureaucrats deciding what kind of medical care, procedures, medicine or surgery I'm allowed to have. I certainly don't need any end of life counseling from DC.

Saul Alinsky's rule of overwhelming the system sound familiar?

Finally, and I hate to shout, but sometimes you have to to make yourself heard over the whining of the liberal left wing propaganda machine:

It's about CONTROL. Control of your life, money, transportation, home, job, and finally, firearms, yes guns. They are bad for your health. Guns cause death and injuries and cause the cost of GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE to rise dramatically in areas where evil guns are not totally outlawed.

Do you think for one moment that Fedzilla wants control of health care because they actually care about you? If you do, I've got some good bottom land in AZ I'd like to sell you.

What would fix the health care problems are tort reform, allow insurance companies to compete across state lines and looking into the third party payment system. I'm not sure that that is not part of the problem too.

CONTROL YOU, YOUR MONEY, YOUR JOB, YOUR HOME, YOUR CHILDREN, YOUR CAR, YOUR TV, YOUR INTERNET, YOUR NEWS, YOUR LIFE. Wake the hell up already.

That's right we don't want to be like Canada or the UK or god forbid Cuba where healthcare is a god given right.

My US capitalist health plan is much better. In Canada you have to wait to see a socialist doctor. With my plan I have no wait.

Since I can't afford $15,000 a year for the health plan I have no plan, so I have no wait, since I never see a doctor.

But all kidding aside, what is so wrong with some socialism...if it is run as a capitalistic socialized democracy?

Our society has some socialism in it already.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

We have a socialist school system and postal service. We got Medicare and SS?

OK, most of our schools are low grade and the postal service is messed up with their bottom line. Same with SS and Medicare. But the problem may be it has been corrupted with too much greed from the capitalists.

Just look at Billy Tauzin for example

Worked for the pill pushing companies as a politician and against the citizens, then make millions from the drug companies after he left politics.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...ugs-usat_x.htm

...and pretty soon we will all be eating chicken from China and you can thank greed and capitalism for that.

http://www.reuters.com/article/compa...43846720080201

Now if you are talking socialism like they had in Russia or communist China then forget it. Better to starve in the free US of A.

But in its basic form, socialism deals with social ethics and what is best for society. It puts limits on how much one person can own. Whether it be $10 million or $100 million or whatever. Americans do not like limits. We can see what free market, no limit capitalism has brought us.

Myself? I'm a social democrat of sorts. Let the people vote on an issue and just use the politicians to propose what legislation the people need. But this philosophy does not go very far in the US of A.

The rich control the politicians and the politicians only pass legislation to benefit the rich. Social ethics cost $$ and capitalists can't afford to spend one dime of profit on social ethics.

There is only one solution to this healthcare mess. And don't count on the gov giving it to us.

The solution is this. We need s socialized healthcare plan for the poor (people making under $150,000 a year) as well as a 'fee for service' plan for the rich. (current healthcare plan in the US.)

But the insurance companies that own the politicians wont go for it.

Capitalism and greed block social ethics at every turn.

And if per chance a politicians leans in a direction of social ethics. The lobbyists funded by the rich tell him or her we will back your opponent and take you out of office come next election. But if you play ball we will fund your campaign.

So human nature what it is, they go where the money flows.

We already have a socialized education system. We all pay for educating the kids through taxes. And some of us use this system and others don't, but we all pay. The people that don't want to use the public education system go the private education route.

So it should be with healthcare.

Tax people 1% to 6% depending on income and start a gov run healthcare system that can be used by ANY citizen in need. If that tax is not enough revenue, then start charging foreigners flying into the US an arrival and departure tax. Or start charging a 1% SHC (socialized health care) sales tax.

And tell all those new doctors in and out of med school the must work for the gov for 2 yrs with the socialized med plan. Tell them if you want to be n MD and make big bucks work in a cushy office and squeeze boobs all day you are going to have to give back to society a little before you go off to your practice.

If some of the citizens don't like receiving socialized government run healthcare, then they can always go the private healthcare route and pay their own way. Just as they can do with private education, if public schools are not to their liking. This is the only way a socialized healthcare proposal would work in the US of A. You need duplicate healthcare systems to satisfy all comers. The rich and the poor that cannot afford the rich healthcare system.

If the government has to limit care for the elderly, then do so. Sure give seniors good med care, but if it comes to hundreds of thousands of dollars for life support, tell them they are free to pay their way to private healthcare, but the gov and the people can't afford a half million dollars for every senior in the country just to keep them on ventilators.

And I'm not a young guy bashing seniors either,

I'm near 60 myself. But I realize that we can't keep printing endless money in the US of A. We must all start to think of what is best for society, as our world is fast decomposing before our very eyes.

Most important, put this plan to a NATIONAL VOTE....Let the people decide what they want.

Many of the people in the uninsured camp were once insured. But through some hardship they can no longer afford the average annual premiums of $13,375.00.

You know, you may not have med insurance someday and be in the camp of the uninsured. And even if you are lucky enough to have some med pay, it may be shockingly different in benefits from what you have now.

Here is something to consider to broaden the minds of those stuck in the tunnel vision of their own little capitalist world.

"Kaiser forecast that the yearly family premium for health insurance could reach $30,803.00 in ten years if the 8.7% annual increase of the previous 10 years were to continue."

http://www.kff.org/pullingittogether/091509_altman.cfm

And lets go out a further 10 years. Now, the average premium is $70,939.00 per year at an 8.7% annual increase.

Some of you say that is ridiculous? Well, why so? If it has happened on a continual and regular year in - year out basis for decades...what will stop it?