Some really beautiful guns! - The Firearms Forum

LDBennett · 11-17-2009, 06:39 PM

Went to the range today and took a Colt Match Target and a Belgium Browning Challenger.

The fun was getting home and cleaning them. I have cleaned both these gun many times before but each time I am aghast at the level of workmanship, the many machine operations that must have been required to carve out these jewels, the tight fit of all parts and pieces, and the deep highly polished blue finish. Both guns are absolutely beautiful machines. I have High Standards and mine, and those I have seen, are no match for these two beauties for fit and finish. The machining is much more intricate on these two than on the High Standards. But High Standards do shoot extremely well. I think they shoot better than these two guns but I'm no super marksman and you can not determine which is best from my targets.

It is so great to own and shoot beautiful 50 year old well made vintage guns like these. How lucky was I to buy these some 15 years ago!

LDBennett

300 H&H · 11-17-2009, 07:51 PM

LD,

I have a Colt woodsman match target and a Browning Nomad.

...You are so right, they are marvels the likes of witch may never be seen again. They are, or should be some of the guns that get handed down through to the next generations, as it will take several to wear them out! You have excellent taste, by the way...

Regards, Kirk

red14 · 11-17-2009, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDBennett

Went to the range today and took a Colt Match Target and a Belgium Browning Challenger.

The fun was getting home and cleaning them. I have cleaned both these gun many times before but each time I am aghast at the level of workmanship, the many machine operations that must have been required to carve out these jewels, the tight fit of all parts and pieces, and the deep highly polished blue finish. Both guns are absolutely beautiful machines. I have High Standards and mine, and those I have seen, are no match for these two beauties for fit and finish. The machining is much more intricate on these two than on the High Standards. But High Standards do shoot extremely well. I think they shoot better than these two guns but I'm no super marksman and you can not determine which is best from my targets.

It is so great to own and shoot beautiful 50 year old well made vintage guns like these. How lucky was I to buy these some 15 years ago!

LDBennett

Love to see a picture.

woolleyworm · 11-17-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red14

Love to see a picture.

+1 to that

I found my Bel Browning BAR to be the same way; the craftsmanship, finish and fit of components is night and day from most factories today. I bought it used a couple of months ago and got to fire the first rounds through it on Friday; 39 rnds of 30-06 gave my shoulder a little wake up call. Was putting quarter sized groups up at 100yrs even with cross winds and bad eyes.

Quality craftsmanship is becoming rarer and rarer. It's worth the extra $$ to me to buy something that is of quality, it lasts longer and I value the effort that was put into it by the maker.

Suicide*Ride · 11-18-2009, 04:11 AM

I so agree w/ you LDB!! There's a reason the older firearms are worth more than the assembly line shooters of today....

I have an old Winchester Model 61 & anyone who handles it will tell you that there's something about it that gives it a feel that my newer, cheaper rifles of today just can't touch!

That being said, I cringe every time I hear someone bragging about their Colt Woodsman's quality....

When I was young & DUMB, I got my hands on a Colt Challenger - ser#10,136-C, & let it go for a $125 cuz I already had a couple of newer Colt target 22's & figured it was old & not worth very much.

I've learned a LOT since then.

SR

LDBennett · 11-18-2009, 06:25 AM

For modern firearms that have better fit and finish, the Japanese made Brownings almost compare to the better vintage guns. Since most of the Japanese made Brownings are clones of vintage guns (levers, BAR, etc.) they have to have the fit to work correctly. But the Japanese take pride in their products and the finish on all mine are absolutely excellent.

By way of contrast, I thought I wanted another 1911. The SIG appealed to me because it was a SIG. I went to the local gun store and handled a few $1000+ 1911's including the SIG and was dismayed at the finish. Each was utilitarian compared to my Colt Series 80 Delta Elite which is no "Browning" for finish but miles ahead of anything less than a couple of thousand dollars. I didn't buy another 1911!

Perhaps today we are at the "utilitarian" stage in new guns. We seemed to only have choices that are brushed or plastic or some other ugly finish. It is rare that you can even buy a new gun that has a deep, smooth, highly polished blue job. But you can find anything you want in painted camo!

LDBennett

buckeye14 · 11-19-2009, 03:32 PM

Hey guys is this the "Browning Challenger" that your talking about? or is it a
totally different gun?

Any body have any info on this one? date ...value? ser#7325u2 Thanks

LDBennett · 11-20-2009, 06:59 AM

I am not that much of an expert on Browning pistols to be able to tell from the picture exactly which model you have.

Todays Browning Buckmark is a direct decedent of the first Challengers, at least functionally. The family tree starts in Belgium with the Challenger. It then moves to the USA where various versions were made (Challenger II & III). There were also Belgium variation with engraving and gold inlays. The Medalist is the same as the Challenger made in Belgium but made better for competition target shooting. Todays Buckmark is made in the USA for Browning and fit and finish wise, it does not compare to the Belgium guns.... not even close. It is also different in details in an effort to keep down the price to make it. But Buckmarks are shooters. The better target models are competitive in almost any competition they are entered in if the shooter has the right personal stuff.

My Browning Challenger is made in Belgium. The USA made guns that I have seen are in no way as nice as the Belgium guns. That goes for any Browning.... the Belgium guns are more highly finished with the Japanese versions close seconds and the USA guns utilitarian finished.

LDBennett

LDBennett · 11-20-2009, 08:24 AM

Both guns look exactly like any other Belgium made Browning Challenger or Colt Match Target. Posting picture is so fiddly that I rarely if ever do it and especially don't if the subject is as common as these two guns. Both these gun are in excellent shape and a factory picture of either would replicate their appearance.

Posting pictures via email is a snap and I do that often but rarely if ever post pictures on Internet Forums. The effort is not worth it to me. Sorry.

LDBennett

Crpdeth · 11-20-2009, 08:32 AM

Send me some pics Lynn... I'll be glad to post them up here.

Crpdeth

LDBennett · 11-20-2009, 04:28 PM

OK, Crpdeth has the pictures and its up to him to post them here for those of you that want to see another one of the hundreds of thousands of Colt Match Targets and the Challenger out there.

LDBennett

LDBennett · 11-23-2009, 07:49 AM

Pictures:

LDBennett · 11-23-2009, 07:51 AM

I got this site's photo attachment method mixed up with another site and it is actually easy here. So the pictures are above. Sorry about that and the delay.

Note: the highlighted areas are not the lack of bluing but just highlights from the way the pictures were taken (open shade, outside). The guns show very little to no bluing wear. They are not pristine but certainly good enough to be shot and enjoy looking at.

LDBennett

dianalv · 11-23-2009, 10:35 AM

Some of my toys. I've better pictures somewhere.

dianalv · 11-23-2009, 10:43 AM

Oops! Forgot what forum I'm in! Only the Anschutz at the top is a .22. The rest are all large bore rifles.

red14 · 11-23-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dianalv

Oops! Forgot what forum I'm in! Only the Anschutz at the top is a .22. The rest are all large bore rifles.

Somebody said I was a huge bore once.

Suicide*Ride · 11-24-2009, 01:32 AM

@ LDB - That Colt is to die for!!

I'll bet it's a sweet shooter!

@ JL4C - You can't beat a Ruger for plinking!

@ Diana - OMG!!

I didn't know that you were a Mauser gal!!

Those look awesome!

SR

ampaterry · 11-24-2009, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red14

Somebody said I was a huge bore once.

They lied, Red.

dianalv · 11-24-2009, 10:01 AM

Old revolvers and Mausers... that's me! Got one more Belgian Browning Safari and a Brno not shown. The Brno needs a new stock. All of them are shooters!

How would you know, Terry?

dianalv · 11-24-2009, 10:09 AM

Those old Belgium Brownings were wonderful blends of functionality and esthetics.

11-17-2009, 07:51 PM	#2
300 H&H Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,796	Re: Some really beautiful guns! LD, I have a Colt woodsman match target and a Browning Nomad....You are so right, they are marvels the likes of witch may never be seen again. They are, or should be some of the guns that get handed down through to the next generations, as it will take several to wear them out! You have excellent taste, by the way... Regards, Kirk

11-18-2009, 04:11 AM	#5
Suicide*Ride Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Golden, Colorado Posts: 1,340	Re: Some really beautiful guns! I so agree w/ you LDB!! There's a reason the older firearms are worth more than the assembly line shooters of today.... I have an old Winchester Model 61 & anyone who handles it will tell you that there's something about it that gives it a feel that my newer, cheaper rifles of today just can't touch! That being said, I cringe every time I hear someone bragging about their Colt Woodsman's quality.... When I was young & DUMB, I got my hands on a Colt Challenger - ser#10,136-C, & let it go for a $125 cuz I already had a couple of newer Colt target 22's & figured it was old & not worth very much. I've learned a LOT since then. SR __________________ "The price of FREEDOM can be seen here" ******(the sign outside every VA hospital)****** In an emergency, people don't rise to the occasion, but are reduced to their level of training. When something is trying to eat you, it is hard to get off a good shot! "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Twain

11-18-2009, 06:25 AM	#6
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,714	Re: Some really beautiful guns! For modern firearms that have better fit and finish, the Japanese made Brownings almost compare to the better vintage guns. Since most of the Japanese made Brownings are clones of vintage guns (levers, BAR, etc.) they have to have the fit to work correctly. But the Japanese take pride in their products and the finish on all mine are absolutely excellent. By way of contrast, I thought I wanted another 1911. The SIG appealed to me because it was a SIG. I went to the local gun store and handled a few $1000+ 1911's including the SIG and was dismayed at the finish. Each was utilitarian compared to my Colt Series 80 Delta Elite which is no "Browning" for finish but miles ahead of anything less than a couple of thousand dollars. I didn't buy another 1911! Perhaps today we are at the "utilitarian" stage in new guns. We seemed to only have choices that are brushed or plastic or some other ugly finish. It is rare that you can even buy a new gun that has a deep, smooth, highly polished blue job. But you can find anything you want in painted camo! LDBennett

11-20-2009, 06:59 AM	#8
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,714	Re: Some really beautiful guns! I am not that much of an expert on Browning pistols to be able to tell from the picture exactly which model you have. Todays Browning Buckmark is a direct decedent of the first Challengers, at least functionally. The family tree starts in Belgium with the Challenger. It then moves to the USA where various versions were made (Challenger II & III). There were also Belgium variation with engraving and gold inlays. The Medalist is the same as the Challenger made in Belgium but made better for competition target shooting. Todays Buckmark is made in the USA for Browning and fit and finish wise, it does not compare to the Belgium guns.... not even close. It is also different in details in an effort to keep down the price to make it. But Buckmarks are shooters. The better target models are competitive in almost any competition they are entered in if the shooter has the right personal stuff. My Browning Challenger is made in Belgium. The USA made guns that I have seen are in no way as nice as the Belgium guns. That goes for any Browning.... the Belgium guns are more highly finished with the Japanese versions close seconds and the USA guns utilitarian finished. LDBennett Last edited by LDBennett; 11-20-2009 at 07:00 AM..

11-20-2009, 08:24 AM	#9
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,714	Re: Some really beautiful guns! Both guns look exactly like any other Belgium made Browning Challenger or Colt Match Target. Posting picture is so fiddly that I rarely if ever do it and especially don't if the subject is as common as these two guns. Both these gun are in excellent shape and a factory picture of either would replicate their appearance. Posting pictures via email is a snap and I do that often but rarely if ever post pictures on Internet Forums. The effort is not worth it to me. Sorry. LDBennett

11-17-2009, 06:39 PM	#1
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,714	Some really beautiful guns! Went to the range today and took a Colt Match Target and a Belgium Browning Challenger. The fun was getting home and cleaning them. I have cleaned both these gun many times before but each time I am aghast at the level of workmanship, the many machine operations that must have been required to carve out these jewels, the tight fit of all parts and pieces, and the deep highly polished blue finish. Both guns are absolutely beautiful machines. I have High Standards and mine, and those I have seen, are no match for these two beauties for fit and finish. The machining is much more intricate on these two than on the High Standards. But High Standards do shoot extremely well. I think they shoot better than these two guns but I'm no super marksman and you can not determine which is best from my targets. It is so great to own and shoot beautiful 50 year old well made vintage guns like these. How lucky was I to buy these some 15 years ago! LDBennett -->

11-19-2009, 03:32 PM	#7
buckeye14 Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Col. Oh. Posts: 40	Re: Some really beautiful guns! Hey guys is this the "Browning Challenger" that your talking about? or is it a totally different gun? Any body have any info on this one? date ...value? ser#7325u2 Thanks

11-20-2009, 08:32 AM	#10
Crpdeth Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Location: Location Contributor Posts: 8,247	Re: Some really beautiful guns! Send me some pics Lynn... I'll be glad to post them up here. Crpdeth __________________ Our greatest pretenses are built up not to hide the evil and the ugly in us, but our emptiness. The hardest thing to hide is something that is not there. ~Eric Hoffer

11-20-2009, 04:28 PM	#11
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,714	Re: Some really beautiful guns! OK, Crpdeth has the pictures and its up to him to post them here for those of you that want to see another one of the hundreds of thousands of Colt Match Targets and the Challenger out there. LDBennett

11-23-2009, 07:49 AM	#12
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,714	Re: Some really beautiful guns! Pictures: Attached Images

11-23-2009, 07:51 AM	#13
LDBennett Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hesperia, CA Posts: 5,714	Re: Some really beautiful guns! I got this site's photo attachment method mixed up with another site and it is actually easy here. So the pictures are above. Sorry about that and the delay. Note: the highlighted areas are not the lack of bluing but just highlights from the way the pictures were taken (open shade, outside). The guns show very little to no bluing wear. They are not pristine but certainly good enough to be shot and enjoy looking at. LDBennett Last edited by LDBennett; 11-23-2009 at 07:55 AM..

11-23-2009, 10:35 AM	#14
dianalv Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada Posts: 1,160	Re: Some really beautiful guns! Some of my toys. I've better pictures somewhere. Attached Images

11-23-2009, 10:43 AM	#15
dianalv Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada Posts: 1,160	Re: Some really beautiful guns! Oops! Forgot what forum I'm in! Only the Anschutz at the top is a .22. The rest are all large bore rifles.

11-24-2009, 01:32 AM	#17
Suicide*Ride Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Golden, Colorado Posts: 1,340	Re: Some really beautiful guns! @ LDB - That Colt is to die for!! I'll bet it's a sweet shooter! @ JL4C - You can't beat a Ruger for plinking! @ Diana - OMG!! I didn't know that you were a Mauser gal!! Those look awesome! SR __________________ "The price of FREEDOM can be seen here" ******(the sign outside every VA hospital)****** In an emergency, people don't rise to the occasion, but are reduced to their level of training. When something is trying to eat you, it is hard to get off a good shot! "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Twain

11-24-2009, 10:01 AM	#19
dianalv Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada Posts: 1,160	Re: Some really beautiful guns! Old revolvers and Mausers... that's me! Got one more Belgian Browning Safari and a Brno not shown. The Brno needs a new stock. All of them are shooters! How would you know, Terry?

11-24-2009, 10:09 AM	#20
dianalv Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada Posts: 1,160	Re: Some really beautiful guns! Those old Belgium Brownings were wonderful blends of functionality and esthetics.