.45 ammo- FMJ vs JHP

[rocklinskier]

Not sure where to post this, but since it is primarily a 1911/.45 questions, thought I would try it here.

A question of theory:

So everyone knows the history of the .45 ACP being a genuine bad guy stopper. History has proven it with years of military service. Some of you out there have had hands on experience with this. My question: All of that history is based on ball ammo, military issue correct? So, did the military use jacketed 230 g or unjacketed lead? Does that change things signifigantly? If the standard is FMJ, then ANY name brand JHP in a 230 .45 should be outstanding yes?

Now I know, there is always good, better, best. But if the .45 'hardball' does the job so well, then should one pay the ridiculous prices of the super ammo that is out there?

Example: Rem GS +P...$38 / 20 rnds vs. Win 230 JHP...$31/50 rnds.

Also, does the FMJ tend to overpenatrate in a HD situation?

My primary HD bedside gun is a .40 loaded with 165 JHPs, but I'm starting to keep the 45 around as a secondary. ie, working in the garage in the evenings etc.

[Oneida Steve]

The military has used FMJ ammo since before 1911. This is required by international treaties.

.45 FMJ ammo, like all military ammo, must provide penetration first and foremost. You can't kill the enemy if your rounds can't get through his winter clothing.

.45 FMJ does tend to overpenetrate in HD situations. The wound is often through-and-though. Not always a bad thing, IMO.

My opinion is: if your full-sized .45 will feed the shorter HP ammo, a good JHP round is best. For the 3.5" guns, I would use FMJ.

[hogger129]

I have a GI 1911 and I bought ammo today, but I stick to 230 grain FMJ. I put my faith in FMJ. If it's good enough for the military, it's good enough for me.

[myg30]

FMJ has it place but home defence is JHP's. You can stagger them in your mag if your gun feeds them both with reliability. If a JHP dont expand than you still have a solid[fmj] projectial going into your intruder ,..yes?
Old police 38 spl had poor one shot stops ,the old swc bone crushers, if ya didnt hit bone a pass through was almost guaranteed. Passer by's were hit.
The service didnt want to kill men,you want to wound them so two men had to carry the wounded and less guys were shooting back!
Shot placement is the most important no matter what ammo you choose to use!

Mike

[delta13soultaker]

Originally Posted by rocklinskier

But if the .45 'hardball' does the job so well, then should one pay the ridiculous prices of the super ammo that is out there?

.45 ACP FMJ does not do the job all that well. It is pretty much on par with 9mm FMJ. The wounds are nearly identical. I know this is not a popular statement because of how skewed the shooting community is about "wonder-nines" and "forty-fives".

For self-defense, in calibers over .32, you want JHP, otherwise you're accepting about half the wounding potential of the cartridge. (In calibers .32 and smaller, the tiny holes usually clog more often than not anyway.)

At any rate, all self-defense handguns are relatively puny weapons. Doesn't matter....357 Mag, .45 ACP...so good center-mass shot placement is trump. A poorly placed .45 ACP is as bad off as a poorly placed .32 ACP.

[oscarmayer]

delta is dead on. fmj isn't a good stopper. here is a tip use federal hydra-shock 230 gr jhp. it is designed with a ogive that lends it-self very well in feeding. and besides most newer 1911's feed everything you'll ever need to stop a bad guy. and if they dont it doesnt take much to make them feed a "shorter" jhp round.

[40CalJoe]

I carry 185 gr CorBon HP in mine. I switched to hollow points in 45 acp about 5 years ago because the would channel is bigger with hollow points vs fmj.

Just becasue FMJ has been used, dosen't mean there isn't something that do the job better.

[wildgunner]

There is nothing wrong with FMJ in a carry gun.
Believe me you get shot with a 45 ACP the last thing any one will think will have nothing to do with what rd you are hit with.
I've seen and heard plenty of 22 Cal do the job.
As far as the all talked about thru and thru shots, the percent of MISSED shots will out number the thru and thru ones.

Next ask yourself and do a little research and see how many innocents have been killed or hurt by thru and thru shots. (With 45 ACP's)

Common sense and reality ck is in order. Ammo companies are in the business to make money. I'm not saying JHP doesn't have it's place how ever I have seen a very big percent fail to expand. So it may even out for you thru and thru with FMJ or fail to expand with JHP. Buy twice as many FMJ rds practice more and don't MISS!

[oscarmayer]

the numbers are in the research has been done experts have spoke. the one shot stops for a fmj in 45acp is 75% vs. 92 to 94% for a jhp. ever hear of the strassburg test, why arm yourself with something less effective . and your point about misses will out number the thru and thru shots is true and even more reason to use jhp ammo. you want a round that missed going thru the wall into your nieghbors house ? or a round that will flatten out and expell all it's energy when striking a solid object.

[wildgunner]

Originally Posted by oscarmayer

the numbers are in the research has been done experts have spoke. the one shot stops for a fmj in 45acp is 75% vs. 92 to 94% for a jhp. ever hear of the strassburg test, why arm yourself with something less effective . and your point about misses will out number the thru and thru shots is true and even more reason to use jhp ammo. you want a round that missed going thru the wall into your nieghbors house ? or a round that will flatten out and expell all it's energy when striking a solid object.

I agree maybe with 75% 92% you mentioned above, however the idea that the 45ACP is a missile and will continue thru to the next house is very unlikely and unrealistic. And the numbers I was looking for, that no one seems to come up with is the number of innocent people hit and killed or wounded from thru and thru shots due to FMJ 45's or even JHP's in 45 ACP.

[oscarmayer]

i've shoot thru more than one room before many times. just think of an innocent being on the other side of that wall. can i state you chapter and verse of the various times it's happened ... nope. but look at the construction of the modern home or apartment. inside walls 1/2 inch sheet rock 3.37 gap then another 1/2 of sheet rock if a shot was fired and the person shooting missed that wall isn't going to stop that round (fmj), unless it hits a 2x4 stud. anything on the other side is in jeapordy . and i've shot a inside wall with the bullet exiting thru the exterior of a framed house. this is of course is based on a what if factor. what if someone was standing outside when that bullet exited the home. you want facts and figures i'm sure they are out there somewhere but i'm talking practical experience. with real life situations. if you choose to use fmj that's your choice butit's not the best choice or the wisest and this has been proven by experts with years of experience and studies....

[carver]

JHP are proven stoppers, and are proven better SD rounds than FMJ. JHP's don't get the penetration that FMJ's do, that's a given. Personally, I carry JHP's in the gun, an extra mag in the mag holder loaded with JHP's, and a mag full of FMJ, as back up ammo. I agree with the fact that most shots fired in a shoot out will be misses, and more cause for concern than thru-n-thrus in any caliber. If you are really concerned about over penetration in the home go to frangible bullets, Glazer Safety Slugs, for an example. I'm not worried about over penetration, but want a round that will get the job done. As stated in the post by delta13soultaker, "all self-defense handguns are relatively puny weapons".

[oscarmayer]

According to Dr. Martin Fackler and the International Wound Ballistics Association (IWBA), between 12.5 and 14 inches (318 and 356 mm) of penetration in calibrated tissue simulant is optimal performance for a bullet which is meant to be used defensively, against a human adversary. They also believe that penetration is one of the most important factors when choosing a bullet (and that the number one factor is shot placement). If the bullet penetrates less than their guidelines, it is inadequate, and if it penetrates more, it is still satisfactory though not optimal. The FBI's penetration requirement is very similar at 12 to 18 inches (305 to 457 mm).

A penetration depth of 12.5 to 14 inches (318 and 356 mm) may seem excessive, but a bullet sheds velocity — and crushes a narrower hole — as it penetrates deeper, while losing velocity, so the bullet might be crushing a very small amount of tissue (simulating an "ice pick" injury) during its last two or three inches of travel, giving only between 9.5 and 12 inches of effective wide-area penetration. Also, skin is elastic and tough enough to cause a bullet to be retained in the body, even if the bullet had a relatively high velocity when it hit the skin. About 250 ft/s (76 m/s) velocity is required for an expanded hollow point bullet to puncture skin 50% of the time.

The IWBA's and FBI's penetration guidelines are to ensure that the bullet can reach a vital structure from most angles, while retaining enough velocity to generate a large diameter hole through tissue. An extreme example where penetration would be important is if the bullet first had to enter and then exit an outstretched arm before impacting the torso. A bullet with low penetration might embed itself in the arm whereas a higher penetrating bullet would penetrate the arm then enter the thorax where it would have a chance of hitting a vital organ.

Overpenetration
Overpenetration is often emphasized by those that prefer shallow-penetrating "rapid energy transfer" bullets. Tests have shown that human skin, on the entry side, can resist penetration as much as 2" (5 cm) of muscle, and skin on the exit side can be the equivalent of up to 4 in (10 cm)[citation needed]. A bullet would need to penetrate greater than approximately 15 inches (38 cm) of tissue simulant to have a chance to completely perforate a 9" (23 cm) thick torso, and would need to penetrate more than 17 inches (43 cm) to actually pose a serious threat to people downrange.

Even if the bullet does completely penetrate a person, it will have a very reduced velocity and probably will no longer be ballistically stable. Missing the intended target altogether, hence leaving a full velocity bullet to harm whatever is in its path, is a much greater threat.

A hit on a less dense peripheral body area, such as a limb, does present a more serious risk of overpenetration however. Penetration of walls and other cover is also a consideration for police and urban use.

According to NYPD SOP-9 (Standard Operating Procedure #9) data, in the year 2000, only 9% of shots fired by officers engaged in gunfights actually hit perpetrators at which they were fired. In the same year, there were a total of 129 "shooting incidents" (including non-gunfights, such as officers firing at aggressive dogs, unarmed or fleeing perpetrators, etc.), 471 total shots fired by officers, 367 shots fired at perpetrators, and 58 total hits on perpetrators by police. So, when non-gunfight shooting data is added, the rate at which police hit what they aim at in real life situations is typically only 15.8%. By either measure, the vast majority of bullets were not stopped by hitting perpetrators, but ultimately encountered some other object. The propensity of these "stray" bullets to pass through windows, walls, car doors, etc. and possibly injure bystanders is a concern, and falls into the overall risk/benefit calculation when considering how much penetration is enough.

Energy transfer
The energy transfer hypothesis states that the more energy that is transferred to the target, the greater the destructive potential.

In ballistics, energy is a function of mass and the square of velocity. Generally speaking, it is the intention of the shooter to deliver an adequate amount of energy to the target via the projectile/s. Projectiles such as rifle bullets, high velocity handgun bullets and shotgun slugs can over-penetrate. Projectiles such as handgun bullets and shot can under-penetrate. Projectiles that reach the target with too low a velocity or bird shot may not penetrate at all. All the above conditions affect energy transfer.

Over-penetration is detrimental to stopping power in regards to energy. This is because a bullet that passes through the target does not transfer all of its energy to the target. Despite decreased tissue damage due to loss of transferred energy on an over-penetrating shot, the resulting exit wound would cause increased blood loss and therefore a decrease in blood pressure in the victim. This effect on both persons and game animals is likely to be incapacitating over the length of the entire shooting event.

Under-penetration is also detrimental to stopping power. Projectile/s that do not transfer enough energy to the target may fail to create a fatal wound cavity. Also vital organs may not be reached, thereby limiting the amount of tissue damage, blood loss, and/or loss of blood pressure.

Non-penetration of projectile/s may only deliver enough energy to create bruising, punctures and or blunt force trauma. All of which may result in internal injury solely through the force of the impact but not stop the target.

As mentioned above, there are many factors that affect "stopping power." Within this theory energy transfer is related to destructive potential; however, the importance of energy transfer in determining the stopping power of projectiles (when compared to other factors like location of the wound and wound cavity size) is a controversial topic.



Hydrostatic shock
Hydrostatic shock is a theory of terminal ballistics that wounding effects are created by a shock wave in the tissues of the target. Evidence of such shock can be seen in ultra-high-speed images of supersonic bullets passing through various objects such as fruit; the fruit explodes due to the shock waves caused by the bullet passing through at high speed. Damage to the brain from hydrostatic shock from a shot to the chest occurs in humans with most rifle cartridges and some higher-velocity handgun cartridges

[rocklinskier]

WOW!! Got more than I bargained for on this thread!

Lot's of great info. I didn't mean to start any arguments.
So here's the bare bones of the original question(s).

Yes, the military issue ammo has always been FMJ

Yes, FMJ tend to exhibit over penatration in HD/PD situations thereby lending to less than maximum effeciency of transferring energy to the target.

Therefore JHP's are signifigantly more effective for 'one shot stop' or self defense application. (not to mention the exiting of surrounding structure)

Now, the last but unanswered, which is truly better. The lighter/faster such as 185, or slower heavier 230, or is there enough difference to make a difference.

Doing some research on testing,(FBI test data) it does seem that the data lends itself to the bigger heavier grains, (at least in the .45 Not neccasarilly all calibers.)

Wound channel volume, with adequate penetration = Big Ouchy

It seems that on any of the commercially produced reliable rounds seem to exhibit effective traits. So that still leaves the one question:

Is the high dollar ammo worth it? OR is the $30/50rnd stuff just as good? And then of course, One has to run enough rounds of chosen ammo through the chosen weapon(s) to make sure that it feeds reliably. High end ammo won't just magically work in every 1911 (so I'm told)

Sounds like it's time to take a $100 dollar bill to the ammo counter again....sigh

Thanks for all the input. Good stuff.

[oscarmayer]

not a argument it's a good discussion. i like the question about 230 gr vs. 185 gr etc. there is a guy named s. camp a well know expert on the browning hi-power that has done tests the old 9mm vs 45 debate and he has some great facts. check it out by googleing him you can apply his findings to heavy vs light. now to your question. federal hydra-shoks 230 gr jhp have the same effect as the 185gr +p jhp corbons with a couple exceptions. the 185 +p travels a bit fast and this helps promote the the bullet from opening up upon impact a bit better. some tests have been made with the newer 165 gr jhp and they work real good. but there are the groups of 45 guys that feel the more lead the better. so for them the 230 grainer works best. the winchester silver tip has been around for ever 185 gr hp non +p data has shown then to be 91% one shot stoppers not alot of difference . it's hard to argue the fact the 357 in a 125 gr jhp is the best known one shot stopper. it's up around 97% but look at the recoil and blast vs. a 45acp with a rating of 92 to 94% the 45 seems like a more sensable choice . look at the long winded post that talks about expansion and wound depth thats the key, along with as always shot placement....

[oscarmayer]

check these sites out . it's great info and a real eye opener http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VG1.html http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm (....this one is the best )

[rocklinskier]

Excellent articles. Thanks!!

[Keystone]

I thought when 1911s came out that lead round nose ammo were used? I reload .45acp with LRN bullets.

[oscarmayer]

AMMUNITION TO BE TESTED:

Federal Hydra Shok-230 grain bullet
Remington Golden Sabre-230 grain bullet
Hornady-200 grain bullet
Hornady-230 grain bullet
Winchester STX-230 grain bullet
CCI Blazer 200 grain bullet
Speer Gold Dot-230 grain bullet
Cor Bon-230 grain bullet
U.S. National Match-230 grain bullet (control)
Handload-200 grain lead SWC over 5.6 gr. 231 (control)


PROCEDURE:

1. Fire five rounds of each type of ammunition through a Model 1911A1 pistol. Each round will be chronographed and will impact into a series of wet telephone directories. Each bullet will be recovered before next shot is fired and directories shifted so that a fresh spot will be hit each time. Each recovered bullet will be labeled as to order fired and velocity of that shot will be logged. Recovered bullets will be segregated by manufacture and placed in a plastic bag labeled with its type. When firing tests are completed, each bullet will be weighed and measured for expansion.

2. Using the average velocity of each five shot string, a table will be made up showing average velocity, average expansion, average momentum and an overall factor. From this information a series of calculations will be made. The first calculation will show average momentum of the rounds--velocity X mass divided by 7000 to give the answer in foot pounds. The second calculation will be momentum times the expanded average diameter of the bullet. This will give an idea of the maximum destructive potential of the bullet at the end of its flight and will be referred to as the overall factor. It may be considered as a significant component of stopping power. Depth of penetration is another significant component of stopping power. If the well expanded bullet is not capable of penetrating to a vital area, it will be less effective than a non-expanding bullet that will penetrate to the vitals.

3. A second set of tests will be conducted following the same procedures using a Colt Officer's ACP to test the effect the of the shorter barrel length. From these two tests, the results of using this ammunition in a Commander length barrel can be extrapolated.

AMMUNITION TEST RESULTS:

On 16 Sept 95, actual firing tests were conducted on the above ammunitions. All ammunition was bought commercially except the 200 grain lead SWC load and should represent currently available offerings. It should be remembered, however, that ammunition companies may change bullet construction or loading data without notice to the consumer. With this in mind, I would recommend that you test any ammunition you might be considering prior to purchasing any great amount of it to ensure that it: a) performs in a similar manner to the ammunition I have tested here and b) will feed and eject properly in your pistol.

All of the various bullet styles cycled worked properly in my pistols and no feeding/ejection problems were noted.

All of the 230 grain loads maintained their bullet weight with no more than a few grains loss. Most of the recovered bullets weighed 230 grains and none was less than 221 grains. All bullets expanded well and held together without breaking up.

With the 200 grain bullets the results varied significantly. The 200 grain Hornady Jacketed Hollow Point lost about 5% of its weight and showed relatively little expansion. Velocity of the Hornady 200 grain bullet was less than that of the 230 grain Hornady in both pistols. The 200 grain CCI Blazer (same bullet as the Speer/CCI Lawman ammo) was of significantly higher velocity than the Hornady, but tended to break up. In the majority of cases, the jacket separated from the core. Recovered bullets weighed from 186 grains down to 95 grains. The 95 grain bullet had not separated from the jacket. This round also has a reputation for unreliable feeding, but I have never had this problem in any of the guns I have tested it in.

The COR-BON 230 grain load is advertised as being capable of 950 fps in a Government model. It showed just slightly higher than this in the Government model I tested--958 fps. The bullet appears to be the Speer Gold Dot bullet. This load is highly recommended (it is a more expensive "premium" load) by one Famous Gun Writer. He is also a COR-BON distributor. It is slightly superior to the Hornady 230 grain load in the Government model and slightly inferior to the Federal Hydra Shok in the Officer's ACP.

Recommendations

The 230 grain loads consistently out perform the 200 grain loads. I would prefer any 230 grain load to any 200 grain load. I consider the 200 grain Hornady load to be marginally acceptable. It does not expand as well as the 230 grain loads, nor does it penetrate significantly better. It probably offers about the same stopping power as the 200 grain lead SWC.

Of the 230 grain loads, the Hornady, Federal, Remington and COR-BON were the top rated loads in the Government model. In the Officer's ACP, the Federal, Remington, Speer and COR-BON were top rated. If I had to pick only one brand of ammunition to use, it would be the 230 grain Federal Hydra-Shok. It is, however, the most expensive ammo available (except for COR-BON). Remington 230 grain Golden Sabre is the least expensive on a per cartridge basis (it is 25 per box while the rest are 20 per box). The Hornady 230 grain is significantly less expensive than the Federal and out performs it in the Government model. If I were to stock two different brands of ammo, I would use the Hornady in my Government models and the Federal in Commanders and Officer's ACPs.

One last area of concern is penetration. All of the expanding bullets stopped within about 6" of penetration. The 200 grain Lead SWC penetrated over 9" and the 230 grain FMJ penetrated over 11". For straight on shots all of the 230 grain loads should suffice. For shots angled in from the side, especially if they have to penetrate the arm before entering the chest cavity, their penetration may be insufficient. For penetration of automobile doors and windshields, most of the momentum of the bullet may be used up in penetrating the barrier when expanding bullets are used. There is still a need for the 230 grain FMJ where maximum penetration is required. The Hornady 230 grain "Flat Point" may be the best bullet here, but the traditional round nose is also acceptable. While in Alaska, I carried a Government model with factory FMJ as a bear gun when we knew there were wounded bears in the area.

The lack of penetration and weight retention of the 200 grain CCI bullet may make it preferable for use in a house gun. Many of the currently built homes only have sheet rock interior walls. While I do not think any of the 230 grain bullets would penetrate the chest cavity and exit with sufficient velocity to pass through two layers of sheet rock, they could if they only hit the arm, neck or the shoulder above the collar bone. In this case, the CCI load might prove preferable. I would not, however, use this load myself.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.45 ACP AMMUNITION TEST DATA

Government Model:
Brand Velocity Bullet Momentum Expand Factor
Federal 834 230 27.40 .730" 20.00
Remington 869 230 28.55 .715" 20.41
Hornady 857 200 24.48 .551" 13.49
Hornady 926 230 30.43 .721" 21.94
Winchester 828 230 27.21 .683" 18.58
CCI Blazer 965 200 27.57 .587" 16.18
Speer 869 230 28.55 .665" 18.99
COR-BON 958 230 31.48 .718" 22.60
Nat Match 820 230 26.94 .451" 12.15
Handload 910 200 26.00 .451" 11.73



Officer's ACP:
Brand Velocity Bullet Momentum Expand Factor
Federal 835 230 27.44 .743" 20.39
Remington 822 230 27.01 .721" 19.47
Hornady 796 200 22.74 .568" 12.92
Hornady 846 230 27.80 .645" 17.93
Winchester 783 230 25.73 .659" 16.96
CCI Blazer 915 200 26.14 .650" 16.99
Speer 810 230 26.61 .683" 18.17
COR-BON 886 230 29.11 .655" 19.06
Nat Match 784 230 25.76 .451" 11.62
Handload 826 200 23.60 .451" 10.64

[Double D]

Originally Posted by rocklinskier

Not sure where to post this, but since it is primarily a 1911/.45 questions, thought I would try it here.

A question of theory:

So everyone knows the history of the .45 ACP being a genuine bad guy stopper. History has proven it with years of military service. Some of you out there have had hands on experience with this. My question: All of that history is based on ball ammo, military issue correct? So, did the military use jacketed 230 g or unjacketed lead? Does that change things signifigantly? If the standard is FMJ, then ANY name brand JHP in a 230 .45 should be outstanding yes?

Now I know, there is always good, better, best. But if the .45 'hardball' does the job so well, then should one pay the ridiculous prices of the super ammo that is out there?

Example: Rem GS +P...$38 / 20 rnds vs. Win 230 JHP...$31/50 rnds.

Also, does the FMJ tend to overpenatrate in a HD situation?

My primary HD bedside gun is a .40 loaded with 165 JHPs, but I'm starting to keep the 45 around as a secondary. ie, working in the garage in the evenings etc.

Wow, I would hate to have your ammo bill. I sell Rem GS +P for 21.00 for 20 and regular Rem GS for 21.00 also. Anyone selling 20 rounds for 38 bucks is takin you to the cleaners. I also sell 50 rd magtech 230 fmj for 20.00 and some blazer for less.

[rocklinskier]

Yup, ammo prices around here pretty much straight up suck!

Yesterday, I found some Rem GS 230 JHP at a big box sporting goods for $30! They have never had them in there before. They only had 5 boxes. I bought one box. Everywhere else, they have been $37 - $40. No joke. Would have bought more, but things are tight right now. Been outta work and cash is king.

The Mag techs, when you can find them (difficult), are $35/ 20 for the 185g

I've looked on line, but don't see where they are any cheaper, especially after shipping.

Best price on FMJ here: WallyWorld, Win WB, $35/100, but dang near impossible to find. Gotta just about be standing there when the truck rolls in, and it seems to only roll in about once a month.

Next best. Local GS, Blazer AL case, $19/50 Blazer Lawman(brass) $21/50

That's why I have a reload kit on my Christmas list!!

[Insulation Tim]

Originally Posted by wildgunner

Next ask yourself and do a little research and see how many innocents have been killed or hurt by thru and thru shots. (With 45 ACP's)
D

Masood Ayoob addresses this issue and has some surprising statistics that back up using a JHP, especially in a .45. In essence, your are looking for a bullet that remains in the body and spent its energy there. FMJ, will many time penetrate and unless hitting bone or major organ, pass through and damage something or somebody else.

I'm JHP for defense and FMJ or lead SWC for the range.

[delta13soultaker]

Ayoob wrote years ago about the number of cops hit by "suspect shot-through bullets" with .357 Mag, 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP every year.

The number was pretty high.

The reason cops are more susceptible is that cops are often converging on a suspect simultaneously if it goes from a standoff with a belligerent suspect with no weapon to shooting when the suspect introduces a concealed weapon. (Bystanders tend to be going away, not toward, the trouble, thus relatively less likely to be hit by shoot through.)

Shoot-through does happen regardless of caliber. Bystanders do get hit. If it can happen it will. An account I read about....a photo studio owner was robbed as he opened his store one morning. After getting the money, the robber shot the owner in the temple of the head and left him to die. The owner recovered from the impact after a few moments, struggled to his feet, retrieved a .40 S&W from his briefcase, and went outside. The robber was in the process of carjacking a car. He had shoved the female driver into the passenger seat when the first .40 S&W bullets hit him. One bullet passed through his torso and hit the female. The female sued the owner very soon after. The owner settled the lawsuit during trail with a settlement.


Handguns stop threats by sufficiently penetrating blood-rich organs and crushing a hole that cause blood lose. The faster the blood loss, the faster the drop in blood pressure. An expanded JHP crushes a bigger hole, thus enables more blood loss.

A handgun bullet wounding mechanism has more in common with a spearhead or arrowhead than it does with a rifle bullet.

Handgun kinetic energy does not wound. A 16 oz weight (1 pound) dropped from 11.4 feet (27.1 fps) has the same kinetic energy as a .45 ACP. A ten pound weight equals dropped from 1.4 inches (2.71 fps) the impact of a .45 ACP.

Handgun stretch cavity in gel is a wounding false indicator. Living tissue bounces back unharmed.

We need over 1,000 ft-lbs of energy before wounding from stretch begins and 2,000 ft-lbs before it is significant enough to be relevant. Unless looking at rifle ft-lbs, it is not relevant. Ammo manufacturers simply sell ft-lbs the way car manufacturers advertise horsepower...it is deceiving and works to get buyers, but neither one alone is really relevant to overall performance (Where you max torque in the rpm power band determines acceleration speed).


Analyzing shooting statistics is nice, but amounts to mental masturbation.

One shot stop statistics are inherently flawed in that scientific statistical analysis is dependent on the null hypothesis in order to either reject or not reject a set of data. Since compiling street data has no control variable, it can never be propped up against significance testing.

Nobody every took 100 death row convicts and shot them with something to compare to later.

We also disregard any shooting that used more than one wound therefore disregards all types of further relevant data.

Subjects may vary from 140 pound black starved crackhead awake fore 3 days in December in Chicago to 300 pound white calculated psycho stalker in July in Florida to 190 pound drunk enraged Hispanic in California, and on and on...all shot by 9mm Silvertip etc...without accounting for more of what type of personality, mental state, physical state/fitness, chemicals, etc are factors in most or none of the shootings.

Lets say most of the one shot .40 S&W STX shootings happen to be on 140 pound crackheads...well odds are that STX round will reflect many stops. But if on the other hand most of the data is on very large or very fit or on people taking methamphetamines, opiates, or barbiturates instead of crack, the STX will reflect poorly.

Statistics available are very unscientific, therefore they are about as reliable as the statistics casinos put next to the roulette tables. Just because earlier tonight Red-Odd had a higher percentage of hits it has ZERO bearing on what will happen next. Why? There is no control variable established. There's nothing to test the significance with. We can only look at what has happened, not probability. No null hypothesis means nothing from a 2x2 table table and a Chi-square test will be valid...no matter how much the degree of freedom or significance level is tweeked.

One shot stop analysis is too inconsistent to reliably promote any ammunition or caliber over another.



The only variable that is consistent in every stop is shot placement.

Everything else is physics. A bullet that expands while penetrating sufficiently destroys more tissue which causes faster bleeding which incapacitates quicker.

Mass is needed for penetration. The heavier bullet for a given barrel is always preferred.

Going to a shorter barrel means a lighter bullet if you want expansion, but penetration will suffer. It's a compromise. No free lunch.

JHP...Most 9mm SD ammo can reliably expand to about .70 and still sufficiently penetrate. Most .45 ACP will expand from .70 to .90 and still penetrate enough. Either way this is perfectly adequate. Why accept a .355 or .45 wound when you can get a .70 or .90 wound? JHP will wound twice as much as a FMJ. (Caveat being some small calibers are so lightweight they cannot surrender any penetration at all, so a JHP would be a reduction in wounding ability.)

So we are back again...to the only constant in this formula: Shot placement.


Trying to find the perfect handgun ammunition is an attempt to solve a tactical problem with technology. We are screwed from the get-go here because a handgun is a weak weapon...fighting with one is like batting a world series game with a yardstick...like digging a ditch with a garden spade. All the more reason to use the type of ammo that wounds the most, but that is only the very beginning.

Putting good gas in a car doesn't win the race.

The answer to tactical problems is a tactical answer. My advice is to apply more effort towards learning to perform the extraordinarily difficult task of exact shot placement when your heart rate is 190 BPM, auditory and vision exclusion is in effect, fine/complex motor movement has been lost, and critical thinking/cognitive ability has been replaced by reflexive executive responses.

Bullets do not win fights. Violently executed drills....tactics, techniques, and procedures...wins fights, regardless of what the weapons are or what they're loaded with.

[NonPCnraRN]

For carry I bought Buffalo Bore +P 230 gr Truncated Cone FMJ at 950 fps. It penetrates like ball (good). But because of a flat meplat it also creates a large wound channel that ball ammo cannot. If Bubba weighs 250 lbs and is wearing winter clothing I feel more confident that the bullet will reach vital organs. A shot into the sternum and lodged or passing through the spine is what I want. In a SD situation it is always a crapshoot. A bad guy may absorb 7 rounds of 45 ACP and still be coming. The same guy may be hit with a 32 that clips a major artery and the guy bleeds out quickly. I go with the biggest bullet that will penetrate the deepest and hope for the best. Plus if a bad guy is using a sheetrock wall for cover I will put rounds through the wall into him, provided a 2x4 stud doesn't get in the way. Of 7 rounds, some will make contact. If the gun is for CCW you may have to penetrate auto glass or sheet metal. You may not neutralize him, but you will get his attention and he will probably decide he should go find another victim.

[45nut]

What Delta said. Tactics and shot placement are more important than the ammo used.

FWIW, my Officer's ACP is loaded with Black Talons , 1 more mag filled with same and two with FMJ.

I also bought a box of Federal HST's. On the turkey I shot this season, it penetrated the breast and broke the thigh bone, but I had to finish the turkey off with my knife by removing its head.