Sawed Off Shotgun

[johnlives4christ]

looks like a cool thing to play with. are the higher capacity mags factory or after market?

[tcox4freedom]

Originally Posted by johnlives4christ

looks like a cool thing to play with. are the higher capacity mags factory or after market?

You can buy factory magazines up to 10rd or 12rd ($100ea). U.S. made after market mags help keep U.S. legal and only cost $40-$80ea.

[dld]

Originally Posted by Alpo

Yep. There's a place (or was, anywho) called Dans Guns, in Kansas, that was selling their version of the Ithaca Auto and Burglar, which is what I really wanted. They had bought a bunch of Italian 20 gauge hammerless doubles, that had never had a buttstock put on them. Cut 'em down to ten inches and put a pistol grip on 'em. Sweet. And only a 5.00 tax, because they were AOW. 'Course, they wanted 900 for the gun.

In the writeup on the gun, they said how hammerless guns used the leverage of the barrels to cock the strikers, when the gun was opened, and how shortening the barrels required reworking the action, so the shorter barrels could move the springs. Hmmmm.

I had this Rossi I had two hundred in. Pay 200 to cut my 200 dollar gun, or pay 5 to buy a 900 dollar gun. Hmmmm.

So I paid the 200 dollar tax, and made my own.

How does it handle? kick like a mule? I shot a short 20ga single shot and you had to aim low to hit any thing. I have been looking at these, plus they are $795


but would rather have a hammer double barrel

[Alpo]

Different.

I've shot it three different ways. Aimed two handed, which involves holding it up, in approximately the same place as if it had a buttstock on it, and simultaneously pulling it forward, with the left hand, and pulling it backward with the right hand. This results in locking it into place. Not the easiest position to get into (although it might get easier with practice) but definitely the most accurate.

Shooting it one handed, like a dueling pistol. Not too bad, although the trigger guard gives my bird finger a helluva rap when it fires. Don't want to do that too often - it bruises my finger.

Shooting from the hip. This is the easiest to shoot, but also the easiest to miss. Hip-shooting with a buttstock is easy. The butt is laid up alongside your hip, your right elbow holds it in place and helps you aim. With no buttstock for my elbow to rest on, though, I have a tendency to shoot way left.

The ammo in the belt - Challenger. Canadian target load. Very light recoil, in a full size gun, but has quite a kick in that little'un. Surprisingly, however, S&B 00 Buckshot has very little recoil. About like a 44 magnum. The only thing I can come up with is that the buckshot's powder charge is formulated for longer barrels, and doesn't burn completely, so I have less recoil (although more muzzle flash), while the target loads burn up completely in the short barrels, so I get all the recoil.

Weird.

[dld]

Originally Posted by Alpo

Different.

Thanks, that is my dream gun. Some day soon I hope

[questor]

Jail time! Get rid of it.

[medalguy]

Actually there's a lot of misinformation in this thread. A shotgun measuring LESS than 18 inches barrel length is a violation of NFA laws. Overall length must be at least 26 inches.

Now, as for the weapon under consideration, my suggestion, if you want to keep it, would be to as quickly as possible, remove the barrel and take it somewhere remote from the receiver. Mere possession of both pieces, even not assembled, but under your control, is a violation. You could then acquire a legal length barrel, and apply to BATF for permission to make a short-barrel weapon which, as I recall, and I'm not 100% sure of this, requires fingerprint cards, and an approval letter from your local LEO, and a payment of a $200 tax on the manufacture of the weapon. After this has been approved, you can shorten the barrel you have (or acquire a short barrel from somewhere) and you will have a legal, registered short-barrel firearm. Subsequent sale will require another $200 tansfer tax payment.

Someone more current in this can chime in please. I haven't been involved in this stuff for a few years.

[questor]

Originally Posted by johnlives4christ

obviously you dont read much before posting

My post still stands "jail time for the current configuration of his specific weapon".

His profile doesn't state his State and or Country, therefore I have presented the following:

************

Canada

Short-barreled, manually-operated shotguns (non-semi-automatics) are non-restricted as long as the barrel remains unmodified from the original factory length. There is no legal minimum for shotgun barrels as long as the overall length exceeds 26" and so shotguns with barrels as short as 6.5 inches are available in Canada. If a shotgun with an 18-inch or greater barrel is reduced to below 18 inches by sawing, cutting, or replacing the barrel (by anyone other than a recognized gun manufacturer), that shotgun becomes prohibited.


**********


United States

Under the National Firearms Act (NFA) it is illegal for a private citizen to possess a sawed-off modern smokeless powder shotgun (a barrel length less than 18 in. or 46 cm and an overall length less than 26 inches) without a tax-stamped permit from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which requires a background check and a $200.00 fee for every transfer. However, if the weapon was manufactured by a licensed builder, with a short barrel and no stock, the transfer fee is $5. (Short-barreled muzzleloading blackpowder shotguns, in contrast, are not illegal by federal law and require no tax-stamped permit, although they may be illegal under state law.) As with all NFA regulated firearms, a new tax stamp must be purchased before every transfer. Inter-state transfers must be facilitated through a Class III Federal Firearms Licensed (FFL) dealer while intrastate transfers may be between two persons.

Other

Additional restrictions may apply in many other jurisdictions. State and local laws may entirely prohibit civilian possession of short-barrelled shotguns. (These restrictions do not apply to military and police departments.) In addition, some firearm types that would normally be considered to fall into the Short Barrel Shotgun (SBS) category are not legally considered to be a SBS. A shotgun is legally defined as a shoulder mounted firearm that fires shot. Shotguns and shotgun receivers that have never had a buttstock of any type installed are not shotguns, as they cannot be shoulder mounted. Therefore, cutting one of these below the 18" barrel and/or 26" overall length cannot produce a SBS as the firearm was never a shotgun. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives recognizes these firearms as being a smooth bore handgun which is an Any Other Weapon (AOW). Unlike a SBS, an AOW only carries a $5.00 tax and can be moved interstate without Federal approval. However, to maintain its AOW status, one may generally not have a buttstock (making it a SBS) or a rifled slug barrel (making it a Destructive Device (DD) if the bore is over 0.5"). Both SBS and DD weapons require a $200 transfer tax and prior Federal approval to transport interstate.

[Ranb]

Originally Posted by medalguy

A shotgun measuring LESS than 18 inches barrel length is a violation of NFA laws. Overall length must be at least 26 inches.
.....You could then acquire a legal length barrel, and apply to BATF for permission to make a short-barrel weapon which, as I recall, and I'm not 100% sure of this, requires fingerprint cards, and an approval letter from your local LEO, and a payment of a $200 tax on the manufacture of the weapon. After this has been approved, you can shorten the barrel you have (or acquire a short barrel from somewhere) and you will have a legal, registered short-barrel firearm. Subsequent sale will require another $200 tansfer tax payment.

A shotgun is required to be at least 26 long overall and have a barrel at least 18" long. If you want to make the barrel shorter (make a short barrled shotgun), then you submit the ATF form 1, form 5330.20, fingerprints, your photos and a check for $200. Approval is routine but takes about four months. Short barreled shotguns are not legal in all states. Check out http://www.subguns.com for more info.

You must get the local sheriff to sign the ATF form 1 (or form 4 to buy). No approval letter is required. Many sheriffs do not sign. You can ask a judge or DA to sign also. Most people just form a trust or Corp. to own the weapon for them. That way you are not required get the sheriff's signature, or send in photos or fingerprints.

Ranb

[100 Bullets]

What some do with other rifles such as an AR is weld a permanent flash hider or fake suppessor on it. I think I would weld a fake supressor on it. It would look cool and make your gun legal.

[wpage]

Originally Posted by 100 Bullets

What some do with other rifles such as an AR is weld a permanent flash hider or fake suppessor on it. I think I would weld a fake supressor on it. It would look cool and make your gun legal.

Dont think so.

[REISINGMOD50]

There is no way you can make the shotgun legal. The amnesty period for Class III weapons was years ago. My uncle died a couple of year ago and he owned a MP-40 he brought back from WW2. My cousin was going to try to find out if he could register it and a friendly cop told him no way it could be done. He could surrender it but could not register it. He ended up cutting it up.

[Alpo]

Originally Posted by REISINGMOD50

There is no way you can make the shotgun legal. The amnesty period for Class III weapons was years ago. My uncle died a couple of year ago and he owned a MP-40 he brought back from WW2. My cousin was going to try to find out if he could register it and a friendly cop told him no way it could be done. He could surrender it but could not register it. He ended up cutting it up.

These are two different things.

According to ATF, once a machine gun, always a machine gun. Since it could not be registered, and could not be made "not a machine gun", surrendering it or destroying it were his only options.

That doesn't apply with a short barreled shotgun. Let's say I had a Remington 870 that someone, in a fit of stupidity, had cut off even with the magazine tube - it would be an illegal SBS. But if I took that short barrel and pitched it in the sea, and bought a new replacement barrel that was over 18" long, then hey, guess what? I've got a legal gun again.

I don't know if he could, legally, weld an extension on the barrel, like someone suggested (although I think he could. I know they sell, quite legally, 11" barrels with 5 1/2" flash hider welded on, for AR15s, for the folks that want to look like they've got a machinegun), but replacing the barrel would solve the problem.

[cakes]

Originally Posted by REISINGMOD50

There is no way you can make the shotgun legal. The amnesty period for Class III weapons was years ago. My uncle died a couple of year ago and he owned a MP-40 he brought back from WW2. My cousin was going to try to find out if he could register it and a friendly cop told him no way it could be done. He could surrender it but could not register it. He ended up cutting it up.

A short barreled shotgun is completely different than a machine gun. If you have a shotgun barrel that is less than 18 inches long, you can weld on the extension, as noted above. If a barrel extension brings you to legal bbl and overall lengths, then you are fine. The most common barrel extension is a permanently attached flash hider.

The amnesty period does not affect the making of new short barrel shotguns in any way, and they can be registered.

[100 Bullets]

If your state allows short barrelled shotguns the gun could be legal. You can pay the tax and your gun would be legal after you are approved. But if your were caught before then you would go to jail. I don't see why you could not weld a permanent fake supperors on it. I think I have seem those breech openers or muzzle breaks permanently welded on to make them legal.

[NitroDave08]

Originally Posted by tcox4freedom

Thre's a company in MS that will covert a Saiga 12 and put an "8" inch barrel on it.
Frankly, I don't see the benefit of such short shotgun barrels.

To me its like the Tarus Judge, for up close and personal. For house and room to room clearing(Iraq), I can see the purpose of this.

[tcox4freedom]

I do think the S-12 is great HD shotgun. In a close 1/4 situation I can see the benefit of a short barrel. Now that I think about it a SG like the one shown would probably be a good car/truck gun. I think it might also handle a riaot situation fairly well.

[wpage]

There are so many ways to work in compliance of the existing law. Why pay premiums to work around parameters...
So many outstanding home defense products are out there inside the rules. Life is complicated enough!

[doramider7]

Originally Posted by EddieS1967

Finally, now that's the swine flu virus I have been waiting on to start posting again

uhm... if it's a good shotgun othern the barrel being sawn off too short... trash the barrel and buy an 18 incher to put on it. dont tell anyone that it ever had a short barrel on it and you're good to go i think. if'n it was me, i would cut the barrel , right in the middle of the chamber so it is unusable before throwing it away.

[johnlives4christ]

Originally Posted by doramider7

uhm... if it's a good shotgun othern the barrel being sawn off too short... trash the barrel and buy an 18 incher to put on it. dont tell anyone that it ever had a short barrel on it and you're good to go i think. if'n it was me, i would cut the barrel , right in the middle of the chamber so it is unusable before throwing it away.

you quoted me exactly

[jack404]

well for once Australia beats ya

single or double barrels registered as pistols with a barrel no more than 6" are allowed here for defence against snake if registered under a rural property

my snake gun is a double barrel .410 that has fired solids but i keep it loaded with bird shot for snakes..

however , heres the kicker you cannot transfer sell or otherwise the weapon, its can only be surrendered

so make out of cheapies or use one with bent barrel etc and will always count as a hand gun on your count ( we have number limits on hand guns here) once marked as a conversion until disposed of

i've made a good racket of converting flare guns to take 12G and .410 for property owners and so when they surrender the weapon only the insert gets handed in and the flare gun is a collectors item ...

just hard to get enough of the ww2 vintage flare guns that we can make comply to this

[jack404]

pics of one i'm working on for a gent
THIS is not a NSW weapon, this is for a Northern Territory Property owner
so report away ( its happened before )

i've also made these with 20" long inserts so full shotgun but with a pistol grip

and thanks to the idiots here it still a pistol (collectors licence) as no changes are made to the pistol , bore reducers where never quantified in the law here for some reason and so this type of mod is 100% legal here ( i dunno about us so dont ask )

[jack404]

sorry for the bad pic's phone camera's suck the green in the barrel is the reducer to take a 12G its actually shiny metal dunno why its showing green and the only mod is the longer extractor as pictured thats a swap in and out too

[johnlives4christ]

a pistol with a smooth bore is considered an "any other weapon" here and must be licensed similar to machine guns.

[jack404]

weird huh ? here a smooth bore is allowed , if i rifled the insert it would be a true pistol class weapons and i'd be busted but this is allowed here ( if you get the approval and paperwork done before you build ) and it must be able to go back to 100% as made to comply ... ( else is a unlawfull mod if not )