My First Mauser 98k

[RonC]

Originally Posted by TRAP55

Ron, in that situation, there's only one thing you can say.
Start with:
"This is my rifle.......This is my gun......."

Good! Very good!

Ron

[LDBennett]

Ammonia (an ingredient of Windex) will etch the barrel if left on the metal too long. If you use it then rinse it out immediately. Under no circumstances should the Windex or an ammonia cleaner be left in the bore for any time at all. Aggressive copper bore cleaning solution (home made or commercial) can ruin a barrel if left in it for more than a few minutes. Use the right solutions and follow their directions.

Putting anything that is not commercial and rated for cleaning barrel bores into your barrel may lead to a surprise, a bad surprise. I say stick to the commercial cleaners (or water for corrosive primers followed by bore cleaner and a light oiling) and follow the directions.

LDBennett

[Buffalochip]

Looks like the stock is laminated and not solid.

[RonC]

Originally Posted by Buffalochip

Looks like the stock is laminated and not solid.

Mmmm. Now that you mention it, that may be possible. I thought it just was the grain and didn't notice the parallel nature associated with lamination.

Ron

[LDBennett]

I am most certainly NOT a Mauser expert but my son-in-law is and collects them. Most of the Mauser I have quickly looked at, that he has, are fitted with laminated stocks. Most of his Mausers have matching numbers on all the parts and the stock. I would think that the early 98's from before WW II would have solid stocks whereas the K98's (WW II guns) would have laminated stocks. But I know for sure some did have laminated stocks from the factory.

LDBennett

[jim brady]

RonC - been reading some of these posts pertaining to my suggestion to swab out the bore after firing milsurp ammo with windex to neutralize the corrosive salts. OF COURSE you don't want to fill the barrel with windex and let it sit. Only a goof ball would suggest that. I am saying-again-that this has been recommended to neutralize the salts AFTER firing and BEFORE normal cleaning.

I do this, as well as many others in my Gun Club who also shoot old military rifles. If you choose not to, God bless you. Just that we all carry small spray bottles in our range bags to saturate patches with that we swab the bores with. We also have small plastic bottles of (usually) Hoppe's to apply to a patch to swab once after after the windex. That doesn't hurt the bore during the drive home from the range. I always give my rifles a good cleaning and oiling after I get home, and before they go back into the vault.

So PLEASE, quit beating me up over this windex suggestion. I am getting to be an old guy (It's not nice to beat up old guys), and my rifles have survived me for nearly a half century of shooting.

[RonC]

Originally Posted by jim brady

RonC - been reading some of these posts pertaining to my suggestion to swab out the bore after firing milsurp ammo with windex to neutralize the corrosive salts. OF COURSE you don't want to fill the barrel with windex and let it sit. Only a goof ball would suggest that. I am saying-again-that this has been recommended to neutralize the salts AFTER firing and BEFORE normal cleaning.

I do this, as well as many others in my Gun Club who also shoot old military rifles. If you choose not to, God bless you. Just that we all carry small spray bottles in our range bags to saturate patches with that we swab the bores with. We also have small plastic bottles of (usually) Hoppe's to apply to a patch to swab once after after the windex. That doesn't hurt the bore during the drive home from the range. I always give my rifles a good cleaning and oiling after I get home, and before they go back into the vault.

So PLEASE, quit beating me up over this windex suggestion. I am getting to be an old guy (It's not nice to beat up old guys), and my rifles have survived me for nearly a half century of shooting.

Your suggestions are greatly appreciated! I'm an old guy too, but have taken to shooting late in life. It was many years after being drafted in 1967 before I even wanted to touch another rifle or carbine. However, I have since learned how much I missed during that time. There was a lot of catching-up to do, and later this month I am taking a one day reloading course.
This weekend, I am taking my Lee-Enfield 4 no. 1 to the range and maybe even a Swedish Mauser.

Thanks,
Ron

[jim brady]

Co-incidence. I just finished a No1 Mk III 1916 SMLE. This was a project rifle that the stock had been heavily sanded, and the bore was pretty rough. Just wanted to put it back together and make it look and shoot like it used to. Got a really nice stock set from Gunparts, and a bore lapping system from Midway.The bore shoots/looks and cleans a lot better after using those lapping bullets.

About the same thing with that .303 ammo as we discussed with that 8mm ammo. Do you find that your case life is really short when you full length size it? Some time back I found out (and SOMEBODY will jump my butt for this, too) that the chambers for the .303 war time rifles were made a little large to fire slightly dirty or otherwise damaged ammo. If you reload like I do, you may already use a neck-size die. Full length sizers end up giving you short case life.

Another point that I crindge to touch on is back in the 50s the Rifleman published data that said a lot of the data for the .30-40 Krag was useable in the .303. From this, I developed a plinker load for the .303 with the cheap .310 diameter bullets available for the AK and the SKS in 124 grains. Easier and cheaper to shoot than the full-patch 174 grain .303 FMJs. Accuracy is decent for a plinker load. Thought this might be helpful.

[RonC]

I haven't purchased any 8 mm ammo yet. I was tempted to buy the Pakistani 303, but all the talk of hangfires directed me away from them. I have some modern 303 that I use.

After my reloading course, I will have a better feel for what equipment I need. Then, after purchasing the press and dies, I would like to reload for the Swiss K31 (7.55 x 55) and the Swedish Mauser (6.55 x 55) as that ammo, particularly the 6.55, is getting scarce.

Regards,
Ron

[jim brady]

Haven't seen any of that Pakistani .303 - would like to find some! As long as that .303 is fired in your rifle's chamber, you can get away with 'neck sizing' instead of 'full length sizing'. You will likely find that the base of your brass will be squeezed down, and you will find a 'ring' that will be the point of case failure. If you neck size, your brass will last MUCH longer.

Reloading the .303 - I have some of the Hornady 174 grain FMJ bullets. I usually just load up those .310 diameter Hornady 123 grain FMJ bullets that are commonly sold for the 7.62X39 (AK and SKS). You could go the route with the .303 that I use for the 8mm - buy cheap old military ammo and reload those components.

Friend of mine reloads that Swiss round. The factory brass is pricey, so he forms his from (I think) .284 commercial brass. I've been off work a year from a job injury and haven't talked to him for a while. Says he uses .308 FMJ bullets as practice loads.

[LDBennett]

Enfields are renown for long chambers to ease reloads in the pursuit of war. Few soldiers recover their brass or at least few smart soldier bother. The brass is meant for one time use and a guarantee of always dropping into the chamber is worth more than being able to reuse the brass.

The way around it is to do as others do: adjust the sizing die so that it does not move the shoulder of the cases more than a few thousandths of an inch. This takes a case gage to measure the just fired cases and to match the sized length to 0.002 inches less. But the Enfield chamber are so long that the once fired brass may already be stretched so as to limit the life of the cases to much less than other calibers.

At least that is my experience and that of others that report here.

LDBennett

[jim brady]

Hi LDBennet. Great point - the military has never been too very concerned about picking up/re-using brass cartridge cases. I can see that - even under training conditions - especially with the British. Certainly never under battlefield conditions.

That being said, common military ball ammunition is certainly as stout as it needs to be. And the over-sized chambers do not become a factor. I do not know if any reloading equiptment was ever issued to any Army other than ours. Cartridge reloading gear was issued to Unit level with the adoption of the .45 Government (.45-70) in our Army. That was one of the reasons why we adopted the Boxer primer. It is my understanding that early .45 Government ammunition was inside primed, then later even Berdan primed, before Boxer primed cases became standard.

Of course full length sizing dies may be used, if adjusted NOT to re-size the brass. Would you not agree that just buying a set of dies that include the neck sizing die to be a simpler solutuon? I think especially to a reloader with basic reloading skills. This would permit that reloader to inspect, measure and trim those cases, clean then reload those cases. Taking outside measurements from a tapered bottle neck case like the .303 can be tricky. Besides, if this ammo is only going to be fired from his same rifle, I don't think he should set the shoulder back at all. That would be an un-necessary working the brass for no gain.

Unfortunately, even with just neck sizing, case life in the .303 is very short. Just that the less you work the brass, the longer you can safely use it. Funny, I haven't had the same issue with my .30-40 Krag. Of course, it doesn't have the over-size chamber issue, either. (And it's one of my "Collectors", so I don't shoot it very much!)

[LDBennett]

jim brady:

The problem with the Enfield is the long chamber. The initial firing may weaken the brass enough (just above the head... a ring of shiny brass is often seen there on Enfield once fired brass) to shorten its life even if you only neck size it or adjust the sizing die to move the shoulder back only 0.002 inches. The secret to the latter method is a RCBS case gage. I have a collection of them and found a caliber gage that gave a reference reading. The gage is calibrated in thousandths so I allow the Enfield case overall length to size out to 0.002 inches shorter than the once fired reference dimension. A relative measurement is all that is necessary. I think (??) the case gage I got to work was the 308 but don't quote me on that. You can use spacers in the bottom of the gage to get the gage to stop on the calibrated portion of the barrel.

The latter technique is better than just neck sizing only as neck sizing only does nothing to the case. After multiple neck size only applications, the case may no longer fit the chamber.

LDBennett

[jim brady]

I think that we have reached agreement about the mechanical issues ("Long Chamber/Over-Size Chamber"), but I doubt if we will find common ground on resolution. That is just a fancy way of saying "here again is the age-old argument of Neck Sizing vs Full Length Sizing".

Actually, if this were my Match Rifle, I would have the rifle rebuilt and the chamber re-done to proper specs and avoid all of this entirely. But then, again, on the range someone some day may casually ask....."Do you full length size or neck size your cases......"

[LDBennett]

jim brady:

I did not say to full length resize. Doing it my way only partially resizes the case. That assures you don't get to the shooting area and find the neck sized only cases won't fit into your gun. The partially sized cases will fit regardless!

Every bolt gun I own is reloaded by partial resizing to get the bullet as central as possible and the bullet is put as close to the rifling as I can get it without touching the lands. In some guns I have to compromise if I wish to use the gun's magazine. Others will take the extra long cartridges without a problem. But each bolt gun's ammo is customized for that gun and no other for both sizing and cartridge over all length. It works! And it will work on the Enfield too.

LDBennett

[Jim K]

FWIW, laminated stocks were being used on K.98k rifles as early as 1938, and some pictures show them on earlier rifles, though those are probably replacements.

Jim

[jim brady]

Been a pretty interesting chat! Gotcha, LD, completely understand the idea about 'partial sizing'. Don't agree with the long-seating of bullets unless it is for bench rest shooting, but that's a whole new 'nuther chat.

JimK - about those early laminated stocks as replacements - how can you tell if those stocks were Armory replaced? I am no Mauser expert, so I was wondering if there was some sort of an authorized stamp to identify the stock as an authentic replacement. I do not doubt that you have seen these on early pictures. Most of our Springfields, Carbines and Garands were rebuilt after both wars, and stamps were applied to identify who did the rebuilds.

My US Enfield M-1917 (6-1918) was rebuilt in Anniston Arsenal, and I was lucky enough that the original parts were retained - all Eddystone. One of my 1903s was built in June 1918, but was re-barrel in July 1930. Looks like all the parts were parkerized and the 1918 DAL stock put back on. Just wondering about those German rebuilds.

[Laufer]

jim brady:

Being a new reloader (less than two months), I've only neck-sized cases, and my only caliber is .303.
The only commercial ammo has been Prvi Partizan.

Months ago my brother and people on line told me that neck-sizing alone would further .303 case life. People on several websites also claim that Prvi brass is thicker than Remington.
Even after new Prvi has been used in my LE #4, most reloads allow only the bolt of my #5 "Jungle Carbine" to close, not the #4.

[gandog56]

I like the title of this thread......


.................................My FIRST Mauser 98K

[TRAP55]

Your stock is "Red" laminated birch. The red color comes from a type of epoxy resin glue they used.
There was also a white glue used, similar to Elmers Glue, that will de-laminate when it gets wet. Probably the main reason you don't see many.

and a bore lapping system from Midway.The bore shoots/looks and cleans a lot better after using those lapping bullets.

Jim, I have to cringe everytime I hear of someone using those. Yes they will clean the bore out, but they take half the rifling with it. Like shooting sandpaper down the bore.
Next time use bore lapping compound on a cotton bore swab, so I won't have nightmares.

[jim brady]

Gandog56 - Yup, your'e right - I guess we got a little off-track, and my apologies to RonC. Just that these are related - a little...... I think maybe we are all into old military rifles and I for one get carried away. My humble apologies to all.

Trap55 - that was desperation to use those lapping bullets. They do work, but I wouldn't tell anybody to shoot a steady diet of them. I just needed to fire a few to take off the rough edges, and it worked for me. JB Bore paste usually works, but in this case it was a little to far gone for that, and those bullets did the trick. Hope this ends the nightmares, because I'm done barrel lapping!

Laufer - you can see with the discussion with LDBennet that there are different schools of thought on neck sizing vs FL sizing. There is even as LD pointed out - 'partial case sizing'. Remember that if you elect to neck size, your cases are going to pretty much be limited to that rifle. Sounds like you have a couple different .303s, so that will be a problem.

You might try LDBennet's solutuon and partial case size. That way you can avoid FL stress on those cases, and maybe enable that ammo to feed into all of your rifles. Just FYI, I currently reload WCC, Winchester, Federal and Remington cases. The Federal cases seem a little brittle, but that is only one lot that I've shot of that so far. I just neck size and trim them. Haven't tried tha PRVI brass, but I'm looking for some.

[RonC]

I must say that I have read the posts with great interest. Next Saturday, I take a course in reloading at the home of a member of the shooting club I belong to. The posts have made me realize that reloading isn't just shoving some powder down a casing, throwing in a primer, and fitting the requisite bullet. Your posts have opened my mind. You all are a great reservoir of valuable information!

Now, that said, I should point out that neck resizing can get out of hand:


Ron (ducking and running)

[TRAP55]

That one needs a case trimmer.

[Laufer]

Thanks Jim.

Will need to learn full-length .303 resizing, before doing a partial, I suppose. Some dozen test rounds have been reloaded five times each, but as with most of mine, they only chamber in the #5 "Jungle Carbine".
To clarify, even when from the Prvi boxes into the LE #4, after the first reload with only neck-sizing, only about 20% will allow the bolt to close in the #4.

As for Mausers, am so very glad that surplus 8mm is still about as cheap as x54R.

Will prices for surplus 8mm ammo (Rom. and Yugo), on average, probably increase a bit faster than prices for the actual surplus Yugo, Czech and 'RC' Mauser rifles? You guys have been involved with guns for many more years than I.

[Jim K]

On the laminated stocks, I was going by a Mauser I own, dated 1938 and the stock is numbered which was usually not done with replacements. Besides, Law cites an official document from that year authorizing the laminated stock. But he shows pictures of Sauer-made rifles with a G date (1935), and dates of 1936 and 1937. The description says "walnut stock" but the pictures clearly show a laminated type. So either they are replacements (why only on Sauer?) or Sauer jumped the gun and began using laminated stocks as early as 1935.

Jim