Handcuffed, disarmed for obeying the law

[nffritos]

http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/handcuff...-81088092.html

[mrkirker]

So, exactly what does his last line imply?

[pinecone70]

Strange....

[tcox4freedom]

It LEO's continue to behave in this manner, more CWP holders will clear their own businesses/homes should they come upon a possible break-in. This will mean more armed confrontations between civilians and BG's. (NOT a good thing.)

[ponycar17]

Originally Posted by mrkirker

So, exactly what does his last line imply?

I believe he's implying that we may bring about an Afghanistan type of law where warlords control 'law', possibly when honest people decide that being bound by the law is a form of oppression and not protection. At that point everyone starts breaking the law.

A local talk radio personality asked a question similar to this when people recognize that the government cannot obey its own laws, so why should everyone else?... Scary, slippery slope type of stuff...

[mrkirker]

Yes, kinda what I thought. Can't even begin to agree with this idea. Sounds as though anarchy is being promoted. New LEO over-reacted, true, but no reason to advocate tossing the baby out with the bathwater with such reckless abandon; almost as a threat.

[rentalguy1]

Lookit, the officer had no idea who the bad guy was. If I am a officer, and I respond to a situation, and I am presented with a HCP holder who is carrying, that person WILL be disarmed. POINT BLANK. END OF STORY. I may or may not cuff them, depending on my assessment of the situation. I am not, nor have I ever been an LEO, but my wife works for the local PD, and many of my friends are LEO's. Guess what...they aren't pricks. They just want to go home to their loved ones that night like everybody else. If you are the dude who says "I would never disarm someone who has a HCP," then you are the dumba** that WILL end up dead someday. The world ain't a pretty place, and everybody isn't who they represent themselves to be. Police deal with scumbags who lie to them all day, every day. They do what they have to do to be safe. Deal with it!

P.S. I am a HCP holder, and I do carry.

[Big ugly]

Alright rental here is the problem. This feller fallows the law to the lettter. Gets his permit, presents his permit as the law requires, yet you are still goin to dis arm him. Why? Is a loaded weapon in the hands of a Law abideing Citizen intemidateing to an officer of the Law? If so Why? I have got to hear this explanation. You tell me please any where in writing that gives an officer the right under the law to disarm a card carying member of the public who has committed no act of violence or crime. If there is no writing then what they are comitting is an unlawful Seasure of ones property. As an officer of the Law they are required to uphold the law, NOT BREAK IT.

[new308handloader]

Originally Posted by rentalguy1

Lookit, the officer had no idea who the bad guy was. If I am a officer, and I respond to a situation, and I am presented with a HCP holder who is carrying, that person WILL be disarmed. POINT BLANK. END OF STORY. I may or may not cuff them, depending on my assessment of the situation. I am not, nor have I ever been an LEO, but my wife works for the local PD, and many of my friends are LEO's. Guess what...they aren't pricks. They just want to go home to their loved ones that night like everybody else. If you are the dude who says "I would never disarm someone who has a HCP," then you are the dumba** that WILL end up dead someday. The world ain't a pretty place, and everybody isn't who they represent themselves to be. Police deal with scumbags who lie to them all day, every day. They do what they have to do to be safe. Deal with it!

P.S. I am a HCP holder, and I do carry.

Cops are regular people also....some are pricks and some not.....but one(s) that disarms a HCP when presented the license are pricks. Having a CP license tells the cops this person has never been convicted of a felony or had an order of protection on them. Were talking about good, honest, law abiding people here....and a carry permit should tell the cop that. I have been in two situations where I showed my license to a cop and told them I was armed....neither disarmed me.

[ponycar17]

I've been stopped at a license/insurance checkpoint and told the lady officer that I was a permit holder and currently carrying. She says, "oh, thank you for telling me." I ask, "do you want to see the permit?" She says, "no, have a good day." Around here it's normal and accepted. LEO's generally do feel secured to know that the person who they're talking to has had extensive background checks in order to possess a permit to carry. That's just my take from what I've heard officers say in the area.

[cycloneman]

5 times in 3 years? Figure some one would have got a finger print or something by the 3rd time. Nope, thats not how the perp is caught. Hopefully one day by some strange way the police will get a an id of the creep and put out an apb on him and then by the luck of the draw this guy will get pulled over for a minor traffic violation. Thats when he will get picked up. You gotta love it.

Lesson learned - stop calling the cops. What good has it done?

I love it you call the cops and they put you in handcuffs. Classic!

EDIT: Wait a min. Was this the woman who got called out to this guys place?

[retired grunt]

This is the fine line. Without being there it's a tough call, but given that the individual that called met the LEO and presented the CCW. I gotta say the LEO overacted lets face it if the caller was a BG he would have attacked or not admitted carrying. Rental I agree with your thought of going home at night as well. I would have decided based on gut feeling as I assume the LEO did. However my gut would have said different.

[user]

In an emergency involving a risk of shootings, yes, the cops can and should do that. I routinely advise clients never ever touch a firearm in the presence of a police officer. You don't have to turn it over, but keep it out of sight if you plan to keep it, and DO NOT TOUCH IT or even look like you're going to touch it, in a police emergency. They can and will shoot you dead if you give the appearance of a potential threat. Good faith belief is all that's required if there's an objective fact to base it on.

[cakes]

It's so easy to be a monday morning quarterback. The first officer on the scene disarmed a man. She didn't know him. Why wouldn't she disarm him? She was responding to a crime scene, possibly a crime in progress. It sounds like a high crime area, since he gets broken into all of the time.





Monday morning quarterbacks.

[Mr. Nameless]

If I were the LEO I wouldn't have TAKEN the gun, but I would ask that it be unloaded and the magazine kept seperate from the gun until I left.

(refering to picture)
And how in the world do you insert the magazine to a rifle backwards?

[Eddie N]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nameless

If I were the LEO I wouldn't have TAKEN the gun, but I would ask that it be unloaded and the magazine kept seperate from the gun until I left.

(refering to picture)
And how in the world do you insert the magazine to a rifle backwards?

Now, there's a good question! Didn't even notice until you brought it up.

[Bobitis]

Last time I had a ccw there was no pic attached. Only prints and a description.

Who's to say when the good guy snaps and becomes the bad guy?
What if he just flipped out cuz he's tired of being broken into, and decides to retaliate? Nasty divorce, lost his kids, mom was recently killed by a sex offender.....
I'd rather not be in that situation.

I think the cuffing was a bit out of line at that point.

[Jim K]

Lesson 1. Cops who feel insecure will go to any length to prevent being injured or embarrassed.

Lesson 2. Cops will go to any length to cover up for each other, even if it means condoning mass murder, domestic violence, airplane hijacking, or keeping a lookout while his friends carried out an armed robbery (a recent DC case).

Jim

[ponycar17]

Originally Posted by cakes

It's so easy to be a monday morning quarterback. The first officer on the scene disarmed a man. She didn't know him. Why wouldn't she disarm him? She was responding to a crime scene, possibly a crime in progress. It sounds like a high crime area, since he gets broken into all of the time.

Umm, because he presented picture identification to her which indicated that he had been thoroughly checked out by her state and federal databases to be an honest citizen...

See, a permit to carry normally means extensive background checks on the permit holder before the permit can be issued. That means no prior felonies, no domestic violence issues, no outstanding warrant and even a minimum of traffic violations in most states. Heck, you might as well present a card saying that you're nearly a certified saint.

That's what the problem is... Take the gun, fine... Handcuff the permit holder?... NO!!!! That was a bad move.

[cakes]

Just because he didn't do it before does not mean he won't do it this time.

[ponycar17]

Originally Posted by cakes

Just because he didn't do it before does not mean he won't do it this time.

I suppose that is why I've heard from HP officers around here that they feel safer when a CWP is presented. Yep, that's a fact... The average person being stopped for a violation is unknown until their plates and DL are ran. A CWP holder presents evidence of law-abiding nature when the carry card is pulled. At 3 AM on a back road that means a lot.

Your assessment is assuming some deviant world, and while possible isn't entirely rational. If a person volunteers their information with picture ID, that consequently proves their validity as a responsible citizen then that's enough, especially since the guy already told her that he was carrying. Take his weapon?... I'd be OK with that. Hold the weapon to assure that he doesn't go Rambo if a suspect appears? Yeah, she doesn't know what his level of weapons expertise is... Perhaps she feels that if he's inexperienced that he could harm her? Put him in her car... Ok, I can even go for that. Handcuff him?... That makes no apparent sense.

[Big ugly]

Originally Posted by ponycar17

I've been stopped at a license/insurance checkpoint and told the lady officer that I was a permit holder and currently carrying. She says, "oh, thank you for telling me." I ask, "do you want to see the permit?" She says, "no, have a good day." Around here it's normal and accepted. LEO's generally do feel secured to know that the person who they're talking to has had extensive background checks in order to possess a permit to carry. That's just my take from what I've heard officers say in the area.

That is another thing that pisses me off. License and Insurance check points. Or even Check points of any kind. Its this kind of SS tactic that the LEA around the US that is completely distasteful. Take one right from Hitlers How To Controll The Population rule book. "tou cant travel through here without your papers" BullChit.

[cakes]

Having your home or business broken into can be hard for some people. It can bring out strong emotions like fear and anger. I'm just saying that we weren't there, and don't know how scared or angry the man was. Was he yelling? Was he crying? Was he chatting casually? Was he twitching and red faced in anger? We don't know. Was the picture on his ID 10 years old when he didn't have a beard? Did he get in the officer's face? Did he tell the officer that he would help in any way possible? We don't know. It sure does sound like he was fed up with the break-ins and possibly with the police. But we weren't there, so we can't be certain.

[rentalguy1]

1. ANY ID card can be faked, even HCP's.

2. Upon arrival, the LEO did not know who was the caller, and was the BG.

3. People lie to cops on just about every call they go on.

4. When you are a cop, you learn really quickly to not believe anything you see or hear until you have had time to assess the situation. A 30 second conversation with a guy who's pissed off over being robbed for the 5th time is not enough opportunity to assess the situation. Especially when the guys says "I have a HCP and I'm armed."

5. An LEO's senses are on high alert when they arrive on scene to even the most mundane calls. Why is this? Because cops get killed EVERY DAY. Five years ago, a local LEO arrived on scene at a domestic disturbance call here in town. They had been to this address multiple times, and there was never anything more than a verbal argument. Most of the time, the argument was settled by the time the police arrived at this apartment. It was that way this time, as well. When officer Vance approached the door, as he had done in the past, to see what the problem was, a .357 JHP met his face. There was no yelling or screaming. The door didn't burst open. Just a shot through the wooden door at head level. The LEO never knows what he is faced with.

6. It is perfectly legal, at least in the state of TN, for an LEO to disarm a HCP holder, and secure the weapon until the situation is properly assessed. If you are ever in any type of situation involving a shooting, a altercation, a breaking and entering, a robbery, or anything else along those lines, you should expect to be disarmed briefly after you tell the LEO you have a HCP and you are carrying.

Take this scenario: The officer arrives on scene, and this guy says that he is the caller. Then he shows her the HCP, and she asks for his weapon. As he unholsters it, he pistol whips her and overpowers her. He wasn't the victim at all, but was instead a lookout for the other bad guy. He had a fake HCP knowing that the officer would most likely ask for his weapon, which would give him a chance to reach for his gun without her shooting him.

OR -

Officer arrives on scene and the caller presents himself. He is pissed, and rightly so, because he has just been robbed. He tells the LEO that he is a HCP holder and he is armed. The officer says thanks for telling me, just keep it in its holster. A minute or so later, as the caller is giving his story to the LEO, the BG comes running out of the building. The caller yells there he goes, and the cop gives chase. Seeing that the BG is getting away, our fellow HCP holder draws his weapon, and squeezes off a few rounds. Later that week, as he is being arraigned, the LEO's husband is consoled by family as her funeral is held.

These may seem like far-fetched scenarios, but this stuff actually happens. It is a crappy, bad world that we live in. Sure, it may be nice in your world, like Leave it to Beaver, or some such, but stop officer friendly one day and ask him if there is any bad stuff going down in your town. I bet you'll learn more than you ever wanted to know.

Yes, we that hold HCP's are the utmost of the law type people. But the cops don't know us from Adam. So, if they ask you to hand over your weapon until they have the situation under control, hand over the weapon. They aren't doing it to be pricks. They are doing it to feel safer in a unknown situation. I know this will fall on some deaf ears, but until you have went to the academy, and have a few hundred calls under your belt, your opinions on these matters don't mean much to me. I prefer to have my wife and friend's around a while longer much more than I worry about somebody getting his precious feelings hurt because an LEO was trying to size up a situation by removing a weapon from someone they don't know.

[rentalguy1]

Originally Posted by Big ugly

That is another thing that pisses me off. License and Insurance check points. Or even Check points of any kind. Its this kind of SS tactic that the LEA around the US that is completely distasteful. Take one right from Hitlers How To Controll The Population rule book. "tou cant travel through here without your papers" BullChit.

You have to have a license and insurance to drive a car in TN. It's not a right to drive here, it's a privilege. With that privilege comes responsibilities. I can guarantee that you have never been stopped for walking down the road and given a ticket for not having your "papers." I've lost a close friend to a drunk driver, and I have been hit by some backwards hillbilly that didn't have insurance. I am 100% for checkpoints.