When to use your weapon... - Page 2 - The Firearms Forum

ofitg · 02-28-2010, 05:44 PM

I once heard a CCW instructor recount some of his personal experiences after he was compelled to use deadly force. He was completely justified in using deadly force, so there were no criminal charges, but he paid about $30k (this was back in the 1990's) in legal fees defending himself against civil suits initiated by the bad guy's family (not to mention the threats, vandalism and other forms of harrassment).
It's not something you would want to go through. Deadly force is a last resort.... and then you could be in for the biggest hassle of your life.

mncarpenter · 03-01-2010, 04:12 AM

This question has been discussed,to death, pun intended,on many forums and in many formats. Defense training should help, your body and brain will tell you more. I've never been in a situation where I have felt another human was going to kill me,although I have been around people who were capable of it and may have wanted to. I have been in situations where I thought I was about to die,and probably should have, and for some unknown reason , come out still breathing. I will never forget the body reaction I've had, and amazingly , the clarity of thought. I think User has it right, and what he says has been the thinking I've based my own decision on. I won't threaten you with a gun. When it comes out I'm pulling the trigger. Here is why-my normal reaction to a threatening situation is not to pull a gun, but get the hell away,whether that means fighting, running, or a combination of both. If I can't get away, or fight off a threat, then I will do what it takes to stop it. I have screwed up knees from years of lugging beef, and standing/working on concrete as a carpenter, furniture/cabinet maker. I'm 6'2 270,and 53 yrs old. I can't run very fast or far. I could break your neck if I can get hold of you, but that's kinda iffy, cuz I ain't too fast. Hence the carry permit, because like others, I don't intend to be your victim, or allow an innocent person or a member of my family be a victim.

wpage · 03-31-2010, 05:55 PM

No CCW...
However when its time. Its time and we know it...

guns4life · 03-31-2010, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by user

Let me point out that I am an attorney only in Virginia, and I don't know spit about the law where you live. Get a local attorney to explain this one.

But as to Virginia, making any reference to a firearm in connection with an intent to make someone else do or not do anything is called "brandishing a firearm". Brandishing doesn't require that the gun be pulled out, the essence of the crime is the connection between the weapon and the intent to coerce or intimidate.

So that person who showed off his gun a couple of times to dissuade someone else from causing trouble could have spent a couple of years in the county jail if that had happened in Virginia.

Police are required to coerce and intimidate as part of their job function. They have to execute search warrants on unwilling "hosts", and have to prevent dangerous felons from escaping after apprehension. Unless you're a cop, you don't have to do that. Not your job, and pretty risky from a legal perspective.

There are two situations in which the use of deadly force is excusable. And in each case, for the average person, it's a binary choice: pull the gun and shoot to kill or leave the gun alone. If the situation does not require that you kill someone, leave the gun alone, don't think about it, don't make any gesture or reference toward it, and do not touch it (especially in the presence of a police officer).

The two situations in which the use of deadly force is excusable are called, "self-defense/defense of others", and "stopping a serious felony". The "serious" felonies are those that involve an inherent risk of serious bodily injury to people: rape, robbery, murder, burglary, and arson. That's the whole list, don't be making up new "serious felonies". You might be right, but that list is the traditional formulation. The reason you can shoot an intruder in your house in the night time is because he's committing burglary. During daylight hours, he's a trespasser. Most states do not authorize the use of deadly force to protect "mere property", and trespass is an offense involving property. The common law definition of "burglary" includes the phrase, "during the night-time."; that's because people aren't out in the fields at night, they're in their beds, sleeping and defenseless. Thus a burglar is presumed to be willing to kill the occupants of the house. A trespasser is not presumed to be willing to kill (though you can defend yourself if the trespasser turns into an assailant).

Here's the traditional definition of the self defense doctrine; print it off and memorize it, after having checked with a local attorney to make sure it's correct where you live: "If you reasonably believe, based on an objective body of fact, that you or an innocent third party is faced with an imminent threat of serious bodily injury, then you may use that force which is reasonably necessary, including the use of deadly force, to stop the attack." You have to be "reasonable"; there has to be "objective" fact giving rise to your reasonable belief; the threat must be "imminent" - not five minutes from now, not five minutes ago, right now; and it has to involve "serious bodily injury". You don't have to be right in your belief, just reasonable. The fact has to be the sort that anyone observing would have seen the same thing you did. The threat has to be immediate. Any third party you are protecting has to be "innocent" with respect to the attack - you can't protect a thief or someone who started the fight with deadly force (including yourself).

If you're in that situation, pull out your gun and shoot to kill - but keep in mind that it is possible to be wrong and that you can change your mind and put the gun back without shooting. You do not have the luxury of quelling threats that have not materialized by pulling your gun out or even showing it off. But when the threat does materialize, don't hesitate. It's an either-or kind of thing.

When you're in court defending yourself on a charge arising out of your use of a gun, you want to be able to prove each and every aspect of that definition to the satisfaction of every person on the jury. The fact that you shot, and perhaps killed someone is going to be obvious to everyone there, so don't dance around that issue. Be straightforward and tell them exactly what happened and why it was absolutely necessary for you to pull that trigger. You want to live in such a way that you can face that jury and say, "They're absolutely right, I shot that guy, and I'd do it again under the same circumstances, and any sensible person would have done the same thing I did, and here's why..."

Things like your use of lightened trigger pull, an action job, enhanced sights and lasers, and hollow point bullets are only a threat if you're worried about someone saying that you were willing to kill and you meant to kill. When that happens, you want to be able to say, "Yeah, so? I carry a gun specifically for that purpose, you're absolutely right that I'm willing to kill someone who tries to kill me and my family. That's why I'm ready to defend myself. I carry the gun specifically for the purpose of shooting the bad guy, and hopefully killing him, before he can do serious bodily injury to me or another innocent third party." Willingness to kill should not be an issue. The fact that you shot someone is going to be the eight-hundred pound gorilla in the room - that's going to have to be a "so what?" kind of thing.

So the lesson is, don't touch it, don't make reference to it, don't show it off, and above all, don't pull it out, unless and until you really need to kill someone. And when that happens, don't try to intimidate someone like they do on the movies, having the gun does not make you the boss, it doesn't make the bad guy run away, and it doesn't make him lie still. It makes him drop for cover, pull out his own gun and start shooting in your direction. You can always change your mind before pulling the trigger, but the willingness to kill has to be there. Otherwise, carrying the gun only makes you into a nice target.

so if its daylight and a burglar is breaking into your house you must assume that he is only wanting your property and not your life so you cant protect yourself using deadly force YOU GOTTA BE KIDDIN ME !!!!!!!! thank God that south carolina has a castle doctrine which means that you have no duty to retreat in your own home if he breaks in in sc hes dead meat bought and paid for end of story

CampingJosh · 03-31-2010, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guns4life

so if its daylight and a burglar is breaking into your house you must assume that he is only wanting your property and not your life so you cant protect yourself using deadly force YOU GOTTA BE KIDDIN ME !!!!!!!! thank God that south carolina has a castle doctrine which means that you have no duty to retreat in your own home if he breaks in in sc hes dead meat bought and paid for end of story

User's point wasn't that you cannot protect yourself in your home in the daytime. His point was that when daylight allows, you must assess if the intruder is actually a threat to your life or only a threat to your jewelry box. If the intruder is armed, then by all means defend yourself and your family.

Try not to think of it in terms of "I'm not allowed to kill intruders during the day." Instead, use this system: It is allowable to kill and intruder who is threatening serious bodily injury; at night, all intruders are assumed to be threatening serious bodily injury.

JUNKKING · 04-01-2010, 11:10 AM

I tell my wife all the time if they want your purse give it to them if they try to harm you in the process let them have it. In the house let them steal whatever they want as soon as they come through the bedroom door let them have it if it is a home invasion shoot them as they bust the door down. Just this weekend here in Pittsburgh 2 men broke into a house both were shot one died, No charges filed but I bet the one who lived is thinking wow did I get lucky. I bet he doesnt break into another house again.

Merick The Red · 04-06-2010, 01:12 AM

Simply put, if you are trapped, unable to run, and in immediate physical danger you are justified. However, the aftermath of a shooting is not so cut and dry. Each state has their own definition of what circumstances justify the use of deadly force. You should do some homework on where you live so you can understand the rules. Remember, if you are ever involved in a shooting, even if you where justified, you will most likely go to court. After personally reading hundreds of different case reports about self defence shootings that have gone to trial, I realized that the vast majority of self defense shootings actually DO go to court, and a disturbing number of gun owners where found guilty of Premeditation and Negligence in addition to having to pay restitution. The sad thing is, most of these gun owners where deemed justified and All of them where out tens of thousands of dollars in unrecoverable legal expenses.

In every case the gun owner was questioned about everything from the type of gun they carry, why they carry and why they use the kind of ammunition they had on them. In cases where they used hard-ball they were accused of being "reckless" and "negligent" for using ammunition known to over-penetrate. In cases where they used fancy self defense rounds (the kind you find on the Internet at $5 per bullet) they were accused of being excessive, and of having premeditated motives "looking for an excuse".

However, the ones who carried cartridges similar to what law enforcement use didn't face the same level of scrutiny. Carrying anything larger with a .45 is just pointless, (unless you live in Alaska and have to look out for 1200lb rabid Kodiak grizzlies.)

I would hate to be that guy on the stand trying to explain the need to carry a 50AE or a 10mm. Even if the shooting was clearly justified, It’s hard to look like the "Victim" when the Perpetrator's smoking remains have to be picked up with tweezers, a sponge and a dirt devil dust vacuum because you shot them center mass with a .50 cal P+P+P 500 grain uranium coated explosive thermite fragmentation shell fired from your gold plated Desert Eagle. An exaggeration I know, but you get the point.

The point is, carrying excessive firepower, multiple spare mags, or firing an entire clip if you have to protect yourself makes it easier for an attorney to label you as "a gun toting extremist looking for an excuse to shoot someone".

So educate yourself on your local laws so you can carry responsibly, get some advice from local law enforcement so you know what kind of load to use, and read a few case studies from your area so you understand the aftermath. This will give you a good rounded idea of whats considered "Justified" by your local justice system, and will help you avoid being drilled by a lawyer if you are ever in a shooting that goes to trial.

Double D · 04-06-2010, 09:52 AM

Merick, I agree with alot of what you are saying. The part about if you are trapped and unable to run, well, not so much. I will do my best to "avoid" a situation but probably wont run from one even if I can. Also, I will take my chances with the load I am using. If I have to shoot someone (god forbid) I dont want that person to be wheeled in the courtroom in a wheelchair by his shark lawers for the judge to "have pity on him". By the way, I am a right wing extreemist and a bitter clinger.

45nut · 04-06-2010, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CampingJosh

And two out of three isn't enough! Means, intent, and opportunity all three or you will be in the wrong.

Agentwil hit the nail on the head here.

Not in TEXAS!!

Old Grump · 04-06-2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agentwil

I don't recommend Massad Ayoob because he is a self proclaimed expert with no education or experience to back up his claims.

This a joke right? Nobody can be that silly.

Agentwil · 04-06-2010, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Grump

This a joke right? Nobody can be that silly.

Remember the only one calling him an expert is himself. Massad Ayoob is a prostitute. I stand behind my comment.

zfk55 · 04-07-2010, 07:40 AM

Good grief.

zfk55

zfk55 · 04-07-2010, 07:47 AM

Try this one, Agentwil. Balance it against anyone else's credits.

http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?Mercha...uct_Code=AYOOB

Still standing by your educated statement??

zfk55

Agentwil · 04-07-2010, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zfk55

Try this one, Agentwil. Balance it against anyone else's credits.

http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?Mercha...uct_Code=AYOOB

Still standing by your educated statement??

zfk55

First thing most of his "credits" were created through his business. If you create it and no one else is eligible, is it really a Accreditation?
Why are you so defensive?

zfk55 · 04-07-2010, 06:36 PM

And you're an authority on this because...............
If you're going to post this sort of crap about a reputable man on the open net you're going to have to prove it or shut up.
So there are many thousands that know his true worth over a long career. And your credits are........... ? What? You're an authority on him because.........? Got anything to fill in the blanks other than off the wall conjecture and pointless opinions.

zfk55

Agentwil · 04-07-2010, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zfk55

And you're an authority on this because...............
If you're going to post this sort of crap about a reputable man on the open net you're going to have to prove it or shut up.
So there are many thousands that know his true worth over a long career. And your credits are........... ? What? You're an authority on him because.........? Got anything to fill in the blanks other than off the wall conjecture and pointless opinions.

zfk55

Without putting personal information out on the web but to answer your questions or in this case the blanks I’m a firearms/ tactics instructor for an agency within the DHS, Federal Agent, and military vet. I’m also a college graduate and expert witness like your hero. I’m also a completive shooter. I don’t get in people’s faces after a match and tell them that they only won or beat me by blind luck…like Masaad Ayoob. I don’t take well known tactics and firearms skills and call them my own design…like Masaad Ayoob. Most importantly I don’t walk around with my chest out like an arrogant jerk…like Masaad Ayoob. I can have my opinion and I don’t think he is all that great no matter how much HE SAYS IT. I don't think I'm one up on him but I do think there are much better instructors out there.

zfk55 · 04-07-2010, 07:05 PM

Of course you are. Whatever.
The field (such as it is) is yours.

zfk55

zfk55 · 04-07-2010, 07:22 PM

Irritating when everyone doubts your credentials isn't it. Particularly when the man you're slamming has a track record and can prove his.
Sounds like petty sour grapes to me, and its always convenient when you "can't put personal information on the web".

zfk55

Agentwil · 04-07-2010, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zfk55

Irritating when everyone doubts your credentials isn't it. Particularly when the man you're slamming has a track record and can prove his.
Sounds like petty sour grapes to me, and its always convenient when you "can't put personal information on the web".

zfk55

Listen it doesn't matter what I put your going to throw insults and rants. I’m not posting my resume on the internet but instead try this for me, look at some of the creds your hero posted and look them up for what they really are. I think you may see my point. I don’t have sour grapes, I’m very well paid for what I do and I live a blessed life. You seem to think of yourself as an expert so what do you have to back it up?

P.S. How does Massad Ayoob prove his track record?
gunfights? Law enforcement career? His experience stems from working armed in a jewelry store at age 12.

Old Grump · 04-07-2010, 07:49 PM

A lot of competitive shooters here on this site, don't know any completive shooters so maybe that is a step up. DHS is a large umbrella and includes a plethora of agencies, most of them redundant. Federal agent could mean you work for the Dept. of Agriculture. On a site like this its kind of hard to turn around without running into a veteran, and some of us have taught law enforcement officers. Some of us have don't believe a thing you say.

Agentwil · 04-07-2010, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Grump

A lot of competitive shooters here on this site, don't know any completive shooters so maybe that is a step up. DHS is a large umbrella and includes a plethora of agencies, most of them redundant. Federal agent could mean you work for the Dept. of Agriculture. On a site like this its kind of hard to turn around without running into a veteran, and some of us have taught law enforcement officers. Some of us have don't believe a thing you say.

Oh I misspelled your right that never happens on this site. I don’t have to proof myself to anyone and I have stated elsewhere whom I work for. I'm sure that no one has done as much as you guys have done and only your opinion really matters. I will be sure to keep my opinions to myself because that is what this site is all about.

Your name is fitting.

zfk55 · 04-08-2010, 07:18 AM

This needs to end here for me. Agentwil, the fact is that Mr. Ayoob both reads and sometimes posts on The High Road. He does read other firearms forums as well. Its like someone is slamming you when you're in the room and behaving as if you weren't there. Not too cool, Agentwil. Not too cool at all. I doubt you'd appreciate Old Grump and me discussing you between ourselves in a derogatory manner in this forum as if you weren't here or ever would be.

I sincerely doubt your credits. Nobody claiming your credits would be as reactive and full of venom for an accomplished man as Ayoob is and you'd have more personal self control. If you were a teacher you'd certainly not be able to impart good situation judgement and reaction to a student. You seem to have a hair trigger where Ayoob is concerned and somehow I think it probably applys to others you consider or imagine as being "competition". hmm

As for me, I'm only expert in my three fields of endeavour, but I don't teach anyone anything at all. I've been self employed all of my business life and of the three of the family businesses I own one and manage the other two. I don't chest beat and I don't slam my competition, real or imagined.

I'll leave you to your world, but I sincerely hope you think twice about slamming anyone's credits openly on the net, particularly when the firearms world in general disagrees with your analysis of his talents.

zfk55

Merick The Red · 04-09-2010, 12:52 AM

Lets not forget. The entire subject of concealed carry boils down to a single governing fact that is brutal in its simplicity. Its the one fact every single armed American has in common.

We carry, so we can Kill

And thats it, pure and simple. You can tack on all reasons you want, "We carry, so we can kill (to protect ourselves and loved ones) or (to protect our home) are common reasons, but not the only ones.

All Laws, rules and regulations are cancled the moment one of us is forced to act, forced to kill to protect.

So take the time to understand your true motives and reasons for wanting to carry. What are you willing to kill a person over? Think about it, because the answer to your question will very person to person according to their own reasons. Your reasons are what matter, because you are the one with the gun.

As Armed Citizens, we use our weapon when we are forced too, period. And by forced, I mean the act of choice has been taken from us, forcing us to kill or be killed or to protect.

We must be responsible, we must know the law and obey it and we must understand our true motives so we can make good decisions.

lentz · 04-09-2010, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hogger129

I know many of you have carry permits. How do you know when exactly you need to take out your weapon and/or fire? What tells you when you need to act?

When all else fails

I hope it never happens,I will do all I can to keep it from happening.I will try to run,beg ,plead.but if all else fails and no other way out,and the gun comes out,there will be no "stop or I'll shoot" or counting to three.Once the gun leaves the holster it's going off.

Merick The Red · 04-09-2010, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lentz

When all else fails

I hope it never happens,I will do all I can to keep it from happening.I will try to run,beg ,plead.but if all else fails and no other way out,and the gun comes out,there will be no "stop or I'll shoot" or counting to three.Once the gun leaves the holster it's going off.

Exactly. This is the mindset of a responsible armed citizen.

The idea of "running away, begging, pleading" make me sick to think about. But the idea of killing someone for the sake of my pride is worse.

Anybody willing to kill someone simply to protect their pride needs to lock it up and step back. They value their pride more than a mans life, and that makes them dangerous.

I have carried for over 4 years (A full size .45 Glock 21), and I wouldnt hesitate to kill to protect myself or someone else, but thats it.

02-28-2010, 05:44 PM	#26
ofitg Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Contributor Posts: 1,447	Re: When to use your weapon... I once heard a CCW instructor recount some of his personal experiences after he was compelled to use deadly force. He was completely justified in using deadly force, so there were no criminal charges, but he paid about $30k (this was back in the 1990's) in legal fees defending himself against civil suits initiated by the bad guy's family (not to mention the threats, vandalism and other forms of harrassment). It's not something you would want to go through. Deadly force is a last resort.... and then you could be in for the biggest hassle of your life. Last edited by ofitg; 02-28-2010 at 06:06 PM..

03-01-2010, 04:12 AM	#27
mncarpenter V.I.P. Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Minnesota Contributor Posts: 480	Re: When to use your weapon... This question has been discussed,to death, pun intended,on many forums and in many formats. Defense training should help, your body and brain will tell you more. I've never been in a situation where I have felt another human was going to kill me,although I have been around people who were capable of it and may have wanted to. I have been in situations where I thought I was about to die,and probably should have, and for some unknown reason , come out still breathing. I will never forget the body reaction I've had, and amazingly , the clarity of thought. I think User has it right, and what he says has been the thinking I've based my own decision on. I won't threaten you with a gun. When it comes out I'm pulling the trigger. Here is why-my normal reaction to a threatening situation is not to pull a gun, but get the hell away,whether that means fighting, running, or a combination of both. If I can't get away, or fight off a threat, then I will do what it takes to stop it. I have screwed up knees from years of lugging beef, and standing/working on concrete as a carpenter, furniture/cabinet maker. I'm 6'2 270,and 53 yrs old. I can't run very fast or far. I could break your neck if I can get hold of you, but that's kinda iffy, cuz I ain't too fast. Hence the carry permit, because like others, I don't intend to be your victim, or allow an innocent person or a member of my family be a victim. __________________ *"No arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is as formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women."- Ronald Reagan* *"Remember to have your democrats neutered or spayed" -Ann Coulter*

03-31-2010, 05:55 PM	#28
wpage Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,471	Re: When to use your weapon... No CCW... However when its time. Its time and we know it... __________________ "You shall recieve power" Acts 1:8 W

04-01-2010, 11:10 AM	#31
JUNKKING Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Just East of Pittsburgh PA Contributor Posts: 1,817	Re: When to use your weapon... I tell my wife all the time if they want your purse give it to them if they try to harm you in the process let them have it. In the house let them steal whatever they want as soon as they come through the bedroom door let them have it if it is a home invasion shoot them as they bust the door down. Just this weekend here in Pittsburgh 2 men broke into a house both were shot one died, No charges filed but I bet the one who lived is thinking wow did I get lucky. I bet he doesnt break into another house again. __________________ Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and again!

04-06-2010, 01:12 AM	#32
Merick The Red Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 18	Re: When to use your weapon... Simply put, if you are trapped, unable to run, and in immediate physical danger you are justified. However, the aftermath of a shooting is not so cut and dry. Each state has their own definition of what circumstances justify the use of deadly force. You should do some homework on where you live so you can understand the rules. Remember, if you are ever involved in a shooting, even if you where justified, you will most likely go to court. After personally reading hundreds of different case reports about self defence shootings that have gone to trial, I realized that the vast majority of self defense shootings actually DO go to court, and a disturbing number of gun owners where found guilty of Premeditation and Negligence in addition to having to pay restitution. The sad thing is, most of these gun owners where deemed justified and All of them where out tens of thousands of dollars in unrecoverable legal expenses. In every case the gun owner was questioned about everything from the type of gun they carry, why they carry and why they use the kind of ammunition they had on them. In cases where they used hard-ball they were accused of being "reckless" and "negligent" for using ammunition known to over-penetrate. In cases where they used fancy self defense rounds (the kind you find on the Internet at $5 per bullet) they were accused of being excessive, and of having premeditated motives "looking for an excuse". However, the ones who carried cartridges similar to what law enforcement use didn't face the same level of scrutiny. Carrying anything larger with a .45 is just pointless, (unless you live in Alaska and have to look out for 1200lb rabid Kodiak grizzlies.) I would hate to be that guy on the stand trying to explain the need to carry a 50AE or a 10mm. Even if the shooting was clearly justified, It’s hard to look like the "Victim" when the Perpetrator's smoking remains have to be picked up with tweezers, a sponge and a dirt devil dust vacuum because you shot them center mass with a .50 cal P+P+P 500 grain uranium coated explosive thermite fragmentation shell fired from your gold plated Desert Eagle. An exaggeration I know, but you get the point. The point is, carrying excessive firepower, multiple spare mags, or firing an entire clip if you have to protect yourself makes it easier for an attorney to label you as "a gun toting extremist looking for an excuse to shoot someone". So educate yourself on your local laws so you can carry responsibly, get some advice from local law enforcement so you know what kind of load to use, and read a few case studies from your area so you understand the aftermath. This will give you a good rounded idea of whats considered "Justified" by your local justice system, and will help you avoid being drilled by a lawyer if you are ever in a shooting that goes to trial. Last edited by Merick The Red; 04-06-2010 at 01:16 AM..

04-06-2010, 09:52 AM	#33
Double D TFF Moderator/Host Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: North Florida Contributor Posts: 8,253	Re: When to use your weapon... Merick, I agree with alot of what you are saying. The part about if you are trapped and unable to run, well, not so much. I will do my best to "avoid" a situation but probably wont run from one even if I can. Also, I will take my chances with the load I am using. If I have to shoot someone (god forbid) I dont want that person to be wheeled in the courtroom in a wheelchair by his shark lawers for the judge to "have pity on him". By the way, I am a right wing extreemist and a bitter clinger. __________________ I own a bunch of scary guns. You want em? Come and take em..... Liberalism is a serious, non curable, mental disorder... NRA LIFE MEMBER Oath Keepers Member NRA Certified Instructor 30 Yr CC permit holder.

04-07-2010, 07:40 AM	#37
zfk55 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Lost Prairie Montana Posts: 237	Re: When to use your weapon... Good grief. zfk55

04-07-2010, 07:47 AM	#38
zfk55 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Lost Prairie Montana Posts: 237	Re: When to use your weapon... Try this one, Agentwil. Balance it against anyone else's credits. http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?Mercha...uct_Code=AYOOB Still standing by your educated statement?? zfk55

04-07-2010, 06:36 PM	#40
zfk55 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Lost Prairie Montana Posts: 237	Re: When to use your weapon... And you're an authority on this because............... If you're going to post this sort of crap about a reputable man on the open net you're going to have to prove it or shut up. So there are many thousands that know his true worth over a long career. And your credits are........... ? What? You're an authority on him because.........? Got anything to fill in the blanks other than off the wall conjecture and pointless opinions. zfk55

04-07-2010, 07:05 PM	#42
zfk55 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Lost Prairie Montana Posts: 237	Re: When to use your weapon... Of course you are. Whatever. The field (such as it is) is yours. zfk55

04-07-2010, 07:22 PM	#43
zfk55 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Lost Prairie Montana Posts: 237	Re: When to use your weapon... Irritating when everyone doubts your credentials isn't it. Particularly when the man you're slamming has a track record and can prove his. Sounds like petty sour grapes to me, and its always convenient when you "can't put personal information on the web". zfk55

04-07-2010, 07:49 PM	#45
Old Grump Advanced Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Little hut in the woods near Blue River Wisconsin Posts: 2,320	Re: When to use your weapon... A lot of competitive shooters here on this site, don't know any completive shooters so maybe that is a step up. DHS is a large umbrella and includes a plethora of agencies, most of them redundant. Federal agent could mean you work for the Dept. of Agriculture. On a site like this its kind of hard to turn around without running into a veteran, and some of us have taught law enforcement officers. Some of us have don't believe a thing you say. __________________ "When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil."~~- Thomas Jefferson Roman Catholic, Life Member of American Legion, VFW, Wisconsin Libertarian party, Wi-FORCE, WGO, NRA, JPFO, GOA, SAFand CCRKBA

04-08-2010, 07:18 AM	#47
zfk55 V.I.P. Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Lost Prairie Montana Posts: 237	Re: When to use your weapon... This needs to end here for me. Agentwil, the fact is that Mr. Ayoob both reads and sometimes posts on The High Road. He does read other firearms forums as well. Its like someone is slamming you when you're in the room and behaving as if you weren't there. Not too cool, Agentwil. Not too cool at all. I doubt you'd appreciate Old Grump and me discussing you between ourselves in a derogatory manner in this forum as if you weren't here or ever would be. I sincerely doubt your credits. Nobody claiming your credits would be as reactive and full of venom for an accomplished man as Ayoob is and you'd have more personal self control. If you were a teacher you'd certainly not be able to impart good situation judgement and reaction to a student. You seem to have a hair trigger where Ayoob is concerned and somehow I think it probably applys to others you consider or imagine as being "competition". hmm As for me, I'm only expert in my three fields of endeavour, but I don't teach anyone anything at all. I've been self employed all of my business life and of the three of the family businesses I own one and manage the other two. I don't chest beat and I don't slam my competition, real or imagined. I'll leave you to your world, but I sincerely hope you think twice about slamming anyone's credits openly on the net, particularly when the firearms world in general disagrees with your analysis of his talents. zfk55

04-09-2010, 12:52 AM	#48
Merick The Red Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 18	Re: When to use your weapon... Lets not forget. The entire subject of concealed carry boils down to a single governing fact that is brutal in its simplicity. Its the one fact every single armed American has in common. We carry, so we can Kill And thats it, pure and simple. You can tack on all reasons you want, "We carry, so we can kill (to protect ourselves and loved ones) or (to protect our home) are common reasons, but not the only ones. All Laws, rules and regulations are cancled the moment one of us is forced to act, forced to kill to protect. So take the time to understand your true motives and reasons for wanting to carry. What are you willing to kill a person over? Think about it, because the answer to your question will very person to person according to their own reasons. Your reasons are what matter, because you are the one with the gun. As Armed Citizens, we use our weapon when we are forced too, period. And by forced, I mean the act of choice has been taken from us, forcing us to kill or be killed or to protect. We must be responsible, we must know the law and obey it and we must understand our true motives so we can make good decisions.