I have some powder I can't identify-need help

[mbcajun]

I have some military surplus powder I got from a gun shop about 20 yrs. ago. I would like to start using some of it, but I'm not sure where to start for a min. load. 1 jug is marked-Military Surplus Gunpowder--- WC-872--- Lot #49602 . The other jug is just marked ---WC-852 . I assume these are military #'s and none of my manuals have these #'s . I am hoping someone has heard of these and can give me min. load or a modern powder that is close to these so I can come up with a starting point . Thanks Very Much

[RandyP]

Only this old fart's opinion, but just like that tuna salad at the back of the fridge....'When in doubt, throw it out."

[Archie]

Check the website www.gibrass.com

Both are currently listed for sale and give a brief description and 'similar' powders for load information.

Unless it's going white and crumbly, keep it and shoot it.

[Old Grump]

I like this burn rate chart because it lists a lot of the old obsolete powders.

http://home.hiwaay.net/~stargate/powder/powder.htm

WC-872 is number 239 on the burn rate chart.

WC-852 is number 214, both are very slow burning powders so take it from there. Think H-4831 range which is 219 on the chart.

[LDBennett]

While looking at the burn rate chart gives an indication of a powder's relative burn rate, you should NOT use reloading data for other powders. There are too many variables when the powder is used inside a cartridge as compared to a burn test. Often the powders are completely different even though they are next to each other on the chart. I have seen both these powders listed somewhere before. Someone probably has reloading info for them but if it is not a business entity that will stand behind the data (in court) then don't use this powder. How much is a hand or eye worth or a gun? Experimenting with unknown powders should best be left to a ballistics lab with proper pressure testing equipment. Just as RandyP said about the tuna salad in the back of the frig.... throw it out.

LDBennett

[Old Grump]

True, chart was for educational purposes only, has to be a reason they stopped using it. At least now you know what you have.

[johnlives4christ]

i wouldnt throw it out. i'd keep it until i found appropriate data to use it. should last for a few more decades easy. or you could sell it a swap meet for something you could use

[312shooter]

The variables that come along with military pull down powders is not something I would dabble with, I say this from experience. Bought a 8lb jusg and found out the starting loads that were printed on the label were dangerously over pressure and could have cost me quite a bit of injury. Fertilize your garden with it.

[JLA]

pour it in the flowerbed and buy new powder...

[muddober]

No No No, do not throw it out, I burn W872 all the time and if you give me until tomorrow I will give you some uses for your W852.

LD, the W872 works great in a 50 BMG, the 300 Rem Ultra Mag and my wildcat 8mm/300 ultra mag. It shoots very consistent creating good groups. Keep in mind your are most likely not going to use either one in any small capacity case because they burn way to slow and if you don't have any large capacity loading needs then sell it. The W872 is what some 20mm cannon shells are loaded. The W852 I need to learn more about.

Ron

[muddober]

mbcajun: Your W852 falls right in between IMR4831 and H4831 on burn rate. But as LD told you that is not the end of the story. We have to concern ourselves about the energy contained per weight first and then density (the volume necessary). As an extreme example of this would be one gram of uranium 235 contains more energy (BTU) than a ton of coal.

Back to your W852, you should be just fine if you back off 5% of any IMR 4831 load you find and and about 7% of any H4831 load. I would bet even money that you will find as I did with W872 that you will be able to work up a load even beyond any H4831 loading before you will start to see any pressure signs. All meaning you will be able to load medium sized cases with your W852 which is something I don't think would work well with your W872 as it is much slower.

Unlike LD, I am not a by the book kind of guy because I cannot read but I have been reloading for over 50 years and I have never hurt a gun or anyone including myself yet.

Ron

[Nalgi]

Eat some and see how it tastes! That will tell you what your starting load should be!

lets pass the hat and buy this guy some IMR 4831!

20 year old powder, no load data? RUKRAZY?

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by Nalgi

20 year old powder, no load data? RUKRAZY?

What are you guys talking about??

Did you even bother to look at Archie's link? This powder is still available and there is "Data" for it.

[312shooter]

Originally Posted by Nalgi

Eat some and see how it tastes! That will tell you what your starting load should be!

lets pass the hat and buy this guy some IMR 4831!

20 year old powder, no load data? RUKRAZY?

I agree! As a matter of fact I googled WC846 which is the stuff I nearly shrapneled my M1A with and there were at least five threads suggesting using data for 748, H335, Blc-2,imr4894 etc......well which one??? The unknowns are great with the stuff and the lab tested data is not readily available for the powder in your containers. I'd say our bickering alone within this thread should solidfy the fact that no one knows how to load your powder for certain. The stuff I had burned a full 5 grains off of what the actual label on the jug stated, that is suicide! There are waaaay to many lot variances within the different plants that make the stuff.

If you decide to apply data from the internet, that is an unsafe reloading practice, applying data from the internet for a lot of military powder that was manufactured 20+ years ago is pure negligence.

[LDBennett]

Non-canister powders (I believe the two listed above are that???) are not sold to the general public. They vary in potency. The way the commercial ammo reloaders use them is to adjust each lot through pressure testing and mixing hot batches with mild batches. But it all takes a great deal of testing.

Anyone who tries to use this stuff better have pressure testing tools on hand.

Unless you have a carload of these powders it is safest to just discard them and buy real canister powders. Reloading mistakes can be costly both financially and in pain to the body. Be safe!

LDBennett

[BobMcG]

Originally Posted by JLA

pour it in the flowerbed and buy new powder...

Apparently good advice unless you're out to load massive cases with the stuff. Heck, muddober seems to have plenty of uses for it, see if you can work something out with him... at any rate you should probably just get yourself some modern canister powder.

[muddober]

mbcajun: The more I think about perhaps you should just throw the powder away. I have to admit that I have always marched to a different drummer and I would not want anyone to get hurt following my lead.

I got my education and degree in aeronautical engineering from the same university that Orville and his brother Wilbur went to before they built their first airplane. I owned three airplanes and flew them often with the same issued pilot license in my pocket that Wilbur kept in his. I also read every book Neil Armstrong did on the subject of landing, walking and taking back off of the Moon before he actually did it.

Ron

[gdmoody]

I agree with the throw it away group. I like the idea of using it for fertilizer better.

[jack404]

hey Muddober , we do things the same ...

i was thinking RPG ... it'd be beautiful to load up on those yugo gren. launchers or to reload some 40mm blooper rounds

or as a second stage flash booster on bouncing betty types

heck put it on someone else's lawn ( make it a mosque and call the fed's ) get SOME use out of it!!!

[DGG!]

Originally Posted by mbcajun

I have some military surplus powder I got from a gun shop about 20 yrs. ago. I would like to start using some of it, but I'm not sure where to start for a min. load. 1 jug is marked-Military Surplus Gunpowder--- WC-872--- Lot #49602 . The other jug is just marked ---WC-852 . I assume these are military #'s and none of my manuals have these #'s . I am hoping someone has heard of these and can give me min. load or a modern powder that is close to these so I can come up with a starting point . Thanks Very Much

I would use if for grass fertilizer. Very old and of unknown quality. Sounds suicidal to try to reload with something like this, IMHO.

[thomas44]

Here's what you do...you take spent co2 cartridges, drill out the necks a bit, fill them with your powder, stick a piece of cannon fuse down into the powder, and seal the necks with some sort of epoxy, let cure and you've got little grenades !! : )
Of course, I have never seen this done, just read about it ! ; )

[muddober]

Jack its too bad we live 12,000 miles apart, we might get in trouble or on second thought maybe its better we do.

I have to say the post suggesting using the powder to make little bombs and fertilzer tells me volumes that a lot of folks who use powder don't have a clue on how it works. I most certainly know how to make slow burning smokless powder explode, but for obvious reasons I won't share. One would think reading after reading my post about not depending just on burning rate and explaining a little about the energy verses weight and density being a factor that more might think "that guy sounds like he might know a bit more about than I do". Even after I explain of my successful use of W872 (I also use W860) some still wish to wallow in ignorance and use the powder for fertilizer. Oh well, I am going to continue to share my knowledge and experiences here for those who appreciate it and I really enjoy learning here as well.

Ron

[jack404]

i hate wastuing stuff even weird stuff like that , take some copper tube crimp one end

get the powder add 20% baking soda by volume and 10% corn starch by volume

mix all three parts together and with a very fine sprayer spray some water on the mix maybe only 4-5 squirts total

put the mix in your hand and squeeze if it makes one lump cool it is squeezes out water too much water , if its still powdery ad a squirt ..

once ok put into copper tube and ad a rocket fuse ( those little bottle rocket type fuzes)

line up and shoot em off like over grown bottle rockets

the baking soda slows the reaction and the corn starch is a binder to hold it together with the water in the tube ...

enjoy ... stuff like thats just way too go to waste eh theres bound to be some fun in any can of powder , just do it not too crazy

[dmh]

fireworks 101 by jack lol

[BobMcG]

Originally Posted by muddober

Even after I explain of my successful use of W872 (I also use W860) some still wish to wallow in ignorance and use the powder for fertilizer.

Please excuse my ignorance. So, with our thinking caps on... so far we have, W872 being used in very large sized cases and,

Your W852 falls right in between IMR4831 and H4831 on burn rate.

If that's the case, that's not too hard to understand as I use both of those powders and I'm sure many others do as well. Provided the old powder has been stored properly it certainly could have a purpose.

OK, now you'd have me tossing or finding a new home for the W872 and thinking twice about the W852. Have you any actual load information on it by any chance other than the moving down 5% & 7% formula? Not saying it's a bad formula, just asking. Seems like there should be some info out there somewhere.