Arisaka info please ?

[CobraGT40]

Some of you may have seen a couple posts that I've made concerning my WWII Arisaka rifle...

I have a couple questions that maybe someone familiar with the weapon's history could clear up for me.

1. Chrysanthemum... I have been looking at these things on BrandX and everyone seems to have the chrysanthemeum stamp on them. It seems people selling the rifles deem the stamp important or rare ? However, I've never seen one without the mum. Mine does not have a mum...

2. I know this probably sounds like a dumb question, but how do I determine if its a 6.5mm or 7.7mm ? This rifle was handed to me from my dad, and handed to him from his dad that he brought back from the Pacific.

Thanks !

Scott

[woolleyworm]

typically - Model 38 is in 6.5 and the 99's in 7.7

the "deal" with the mum is that when the end was inevitable, orders were to remove/grind all imperial markings. I have seen many with mum ground off.

[CobraGT40]

Originally Posted by woolleyworm

typically - Model 38 is in 6.5 and the 99's in 7.7

the "deal" with the mum is that when the end was inevitable, orders were to remove/grind all imperial markings. I have seen many with mum ground off.

My rifle is in fantastic shape...although not historically accurate. The blueing was stripped off by my grandfather some 50-60 years ago and was bare steel. I remember it looked pretty cool... Since I got it from my dad recently, it appeared to be a rust bucket. I have cleaned it up and it looks fantastic (in my opinion)... The stock looks great as does everything else...no rust inside the barrel at all. After cleaning it up I could tell 100% that it never had a mum stamped on it...it does have the 3 japanese charcaters on it though.

Scott

[RJay]

Rifle with the mum intact are battle field pick ups. No mum, surrendered at the end of the war. GI'S took their pick out of huge piles of surrendered rifles, the rest were dumped in the ocean.

[300 H&H]

If I remember right the barrels on Arisaka have chrome plated bores. That is why it looks so good, and probbably is. Parker Ackley did strength tests on all the WW2 bolt actions and found these to be the strongest of all he tested. He concluded the elaborate three step heat treat process they used as being most respocible for it's great strength. FYI, Kirk

[Alpo]

>I know this probably sounds like a dumb question, but how do I determine if its a 6.5mm or 7.7mm ? <

Simplest way I can think of is measure the hole in the end of the barrel. A Type 99 is chambered in 7.7 Jap (as Norma calls it). Basically 30 caliber. Hole should be in the 0.310" range. A Type 38 is chambered in 6.5 Arisaka, or .25 Jap. Hole should be in the 0.257" range.

[woolleyworm]

Originally Posted by CobraGT40

After cleaning it up I could tell 100% that it never had a mum stamped on it...it does have the 3 japanese charcaters on it though.

Scott

2 options here then, need some pics, especially of the rear bolt section, markings and receiver group. Is there a serial number marked anywhere?


1 - You may have a late end of the war model, these were thrown together by any means necessary and should never ever be shot. Arisaka's are very good rifles, except for these late versions, they are good only for wall hangings or clubs.

There would be obvious removal marks if there was a mum originally, I would think.

2 - You have a training version and it was designed to fire blanks only.

[jondar]

Quote: "you may have a late end of the war model."

Yes, if you have one of these last ditch models, the tang and action will be forged in one. Others had removable seperate tangs. Also not all the Type 99's had chrome lined bores. The Jensin I have, made in early 1943 has the chrome bore, where the Nagoya I bought a few years ago does not, although the Nagoya was made early in the war and is a more highly finished rifle.

[CobraGT40]

Originally Posted by jondar

Quote: "you may have a late end of the war model."

Yes, if you have one of these last ditch models, the tang and action will be forged in one. Others had removable seperate tangs. Also not all the Type 99's had chrome lined bores. The Jensin I have, made in early 1943 has the chrome bore, where the Nagoya I bought a few years ago does not, although the Nagoya was made early in the war and is a more highly finished rifle.

I believe it is an earlier model and not a "last ditch" weapon. It is very well machined and has a chrome-lined barrel...and has a metal cap on the rifle butt.

Also (to Wooley) I believe it did have a chrysanthemum stamp at one time. Upon close inspection, I can see that where the mum is supposed to be, the metal is a little lower then the rest. Grand-dad was very meticulous about working on things, so I couldn't tell untill I looked very close and under certain lighting.

I apologize that I haven't posted any pics...I have my camera loaned out to my cousin at the moment. As soon as I get it back I'll post some pics to my gallery.

[JLA]

Originally Posted by Alpo

>I know this probably sounds like a dumb question, but how do I determine if its a 6.5mm or 7.7mm ? <

Simplest way I can think of is measure the hole in the end of the barrel. A Type 99 is chambered in 7.7 Jap (as Norma calls it). Basically 30 caliber. Hole should be in the 0.310" range. A Type 38 is chambered in 6.5 Arisaka, or .25 Jap. Hole should be in the 0.257" range.

a simple method, a pencil will fit down one and not the other...

[wpage]

My dad brought back a bayonet from the Aleutian Islands from one of these rifles. He told me they piled the rifles up and burned them after the japs committed mass suicides in the island campaigns off Alaska during WW II.

[Jim K]

The rifles with ground "mums" came out of depots in Japan after American forces took over. The grinding was done by Japanese depot workers.

The problem is that most vets or their descendants preferred telling how the rifle was captured in hand-to-hand combat rather than how the GI went in a truck to a depot and got a ground rifle off a rack. So someone (usually the vet) did a little fibbing.

But how to explain a captured rifle with a ground crest? And that is when the stories become really inventive. The Japanese soldiers carried around grinding wheels and ground off the crest when they knew the rifle would be captured. The US army/marines/navy carried grinding wheels and ground off the crest to avoid offending the Emperor (on Guadalcanal?). MacArthur ordered all combat-captured rifles to be turned in for grinding, then returned them. Harry Truman kept close track of all captured Japanese rifles and sent the FBI to grind off the crests to avoid offending the Emperor (and had time to be president, too!). In other words, whatever story, no matter how absurd, the teller thought the listener would believe, except the obvious - that "ground" rifle was not captured in combat.

Further, un-ground, "combat captured" rifles were rarely taken in direct combat; they were more accurately described as battlefield pickups, taken by troops assigned to retrieve US weapons and to seize Japanese weapons that could be used against Americans if the Japanese advanced. American troops took many of those as souvenirs. But the person who brought back a rifle was only rarely one of those who fought the battle. Soldiers and Marines simply could not carry an extra rifle around while fighting a war, so most of the "captured" rifles were sold, traded or otherwise came into the hands of the few returning GIs or into the hands of sailors or airmen who had a place to store them and a way of bringing them back.

(Handguns and other more portable souvenirs were usually kept by the fighting troops.)

Jim

[Lark07]

The first time I encountered an Arisaka was when an older man was showing me a bring-back souvenir (Chrysanthemum intact) that his dad gave to him. It was a very rough looking piece without a bolt that looked rather weak. I looked into them more and found a used one with the flower ground off at a decent price. It shoots ok and is an interesting piece. I was considering using my bolt to test the other bring-back piece, but decided that it was not worth testing even with the rifle held down by sand bags and a string on the trigger.

[Jim K]

BTW, to answer one question by the OP. If the Japanese characters on the receiver run crossways, the rifle is a Type 99. If they run in the same direction as the barrel, the rifle is a Type 38. (Yes, I know those are not the only kinds of Japanese rifles, but they are the most common.) The Japanese symbol that looks a bit like a man kneeling on one knee is a "9" so two are "99". The symbol with three horizontal lines is a "3", the first character of "38".

If there are NO markings at all on the receiver ring, and no sign of a "mum", be very careful. Those are among the signs of a training rifle, made only for firing blanks and potentially dangerous with any live ammunition.

Jim

[Helix_FR]

Just another thing to add. When you see one were someone says "numbers match" make sure that all numbers match besides the bolt and receiver. The type 99's had numbers all over them. Many will say numbers match and the bolt and receiver do but the barrel bands, front bayo mount, barrel, stock etc don't.

[TRAP55]

Missing MUM info:
http://www.gunboards.com/sites/banza...of_Missing_Mum

Jap Arsenal markings:
http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/japanese_markings.html

[Jim K]

The "missing mum" article seems to be basically correct, based on my own sources and information. The only part I suspect was the bit about the "mum" being ground by US postal authorities. I have never found anyone who ever heard of that, and only one "my friend was told by his cousin that a sailor said..." story, which seems to be the same one quoted here. Nor can I find any real evidence that any Americans were involved in the defacing of the "mum", anywhere, at any time. Stories to the contrary are part of what I referred to in the previous post - the "tooken it off'n Hirohito personal" stories.

The "mum" was actually the "mon" or house symbol (equivalent to a coat of arms) of the royal family, not the emperor's personal symbol, but it was considered the sign that the weapon was imperial property and that the bearer was fighting for the emperor, in somewhat the same way as the crown was placed on British weapons.

The defacement needs no detailed explanation. The emperor was considered divine. To surrender a rifle with the "mum" was to symbolically to surrender and defile the emperor; defacing the marking BY JAPANESE prevented the sacred symbol from falling into the hands of unbelievers. MacArthur, aware of the fact that harming or insulting the emperor could bring on a mass uprising with ramifications that would never be resolved, went along with the myth that the emperor had nothing to do with the war and among other details allowed the "mum" to be defaced.

Jim

[Ed K]

I have one a friend recovered scubba diveing in the Pacific a few years back i dont know how to post pictures if someone is interested in seeing this complete rifle that spent yrs under water PM me I'll e-mail folder it's set up to go in my e-mail. This gun is not for sale My friend died of a heart attack after a local dive We were dive buddys for years

[56/50]

I've got a Type 30 ( no, not a 38 ) made from the middle 1890's to early 1900's with the Chrys. Type 30 bayonet and sling all original!! Try and find any info. on it!!! It's in 6.5mm and 50 inches long from buttplate to end of the muzzle!! It has a two piece stock and flat metal buttplate!! The bayonet is as it's supposed to be as to length two piece wood grips etc. but nobody even mentions the Type 30 rifle, Google doesn't even have it, go figure!! Joe

[Jim K]

The Type 30 rifle, called that from the 30th year of the reign of the Emperor Meiji, which would have been 1898, even though formal adoption did not take place until 1899.

The Type 30 was intended as an improvement over the earlier 8mm (Type 22) Murata rifle. At that time, many nations, especially those whose troops tended to small stature, were going to a 6.5mm caliber, feeling that it had a good combination of lethality, accuracy, economy, light weight, and light recoil. The Type 30, while designed under the supervision of Col. Nariaki Arisaka, was a different design from the later Arisaka rifles.

The Type 30 was not seen often in the Pacific theater since most had been sold off before and during WWI to whatever country wanted them, which included Britain and Russia. The 6.5 Japanese ammunition was common enough in Russia that V. G. Federov chambered his Model 1916 rifle (often called the world's first assault rifle) for that caliber instead of the more powerful 7.62x54R service caliber.

A few Type 30's did turn up in combat in the later stages of WWII, and some were taken from depots in Japan. GI's called the rifle "the hook safety Jap" and considered it, like the Type I, something of a prize, less common than the ubiquitous Type 38 and Type 99 rifles.

One interesting point: the Type 30 used assembly numbers, so the numbers on the parts will not match the serial number but should match each other if the rifle is original.

Jim

[56/50]

Originally Posted by Jim K

The Type 30 rifle, called that from the 30th year of the reign of the Emperor Meiji, which would have been 1898, even though formal adoption did not take place until 1899.

The Type 30 was intended as an improvement over the earlier 8mm (Type 22) Murata rifle. At that time, many nations, especially those whose troops tended to small stature, were going to a 6.5mm caliber, feeling that it had a good combination of lethality, accuracy, economy, light weight, and light recoil. The Type 30, while designed under the supervision of Col. Nariaki Arisaka, was a different design from the later Arisaka rifles.

The Type 30 was not seen often in the Pacific theater since most had been sold off before and during WWI to whatever country wanted them, which included Britain and Russia. The 6.5 Japanese ammunition was common enough in Russia that V. G. Federov chambered his Model 1916 rifle (often called the world's first assault rifle) for that caliber instead of the more powerful 7.62x54R service caliber.

A few Type 30's did turn up in combat in the later stages of WWII, and some were taken from depots in Japan. GI's called the rifle "the hook safety Jap" and considered it, like the Type I, something of a prize, less common than the ubiquitous Type 38 and Type 99 rifles.

One interesting point: the Type 30 used assembly numbers, so the numbers on the parts will not match the serial number but should match each other if the rifle is original.

Jim

Thanks Jim K: I pretty much found the info. you sent( and thanks for that ) in my research after my posting you responded to! Everthing is as you say as to numbers on the parts of the rifle, it sure was a pain in the butt at first seeing that there's an immense amount of info. on the 38 & 99 but the 30 only had a 6.5mm bore that visually compared to the other two!! I suppose the biggest problem for me was having a Type 38 and a Type 99 and photo's were everywhere for those two but that "hook safety" is not on any of the 38's or 99's thanks for the help, great site! Joe